When breeding to an Optigen clear by parentage do you make sure at least the stud dog or the female have had an Optigen Normal themselves and not by parentage ? I know alot said they would clear second generation but am seeing alot of stud dogs with, by parentage. Was wondering

It depends. Do you trust the owners of the dog and bitch? Have they established themselves as careful, honest and fair people? If they have, PRA normal by parentage is fine with me.

I get the facts. If the stud dog does not have his own tested clearance, then I want the same documentation OFA requires. That includes Optigen certificate on sire and dam as well as DNA proof of parentage. What good is it to have DNA tests available to help us prevent serious disorders when the DNA itself is not proven?

With discount testing for clear X clear offspring, I really don't see why any stud dog would not have his own clearance. If owners can ask $1000 for a stud service, they can afford to invest less than $100 in getting a PRA clearance for the dog. It is not only good breeding management, it is good marketing as well

For any litter, I want to see at least one parent tested clear.

I have grandparents clear for PRA on the mom's side. The sire I used was PRA, clear, the dog I kept out of the litter, I didn't do, because I know he is PRA clear by parentage. If you do your homework on people that list their dogs as PRA, clear by parentage, then I would have no problem using a stud dog that is clear by parentage. I have to laugh at the breeders that have their stud dogs for public stud and don't even bother doing a PRA test???
To the person that said you can do a PRA test for $100.00, were would that be done at???

Optigen did come down in price and they just ran the 25% off Spring discounts. So not much more than $100. if I looked correctly.

Thank You, didn't realize that. Makes sense and will have it done.

I think that clear by parentage is perfectly fine for any animal not included in a breeding program. As soon as a dog/bitch is chosen to contribute to the gene pool it should have its own clearances.

Genetically inherited problems occur due to gene mutation somewhere along the line, so who is to say that your tested clear stock is in the next generation not going to produce puppy with a newly mutated gene? Is this puppy clear by parentage? hell yes, but is this a guarantee that a new gene mutation has not occurred? Of course it is not. Hence my reason for saying that any animal being used in a breeding program should have its own cleaqrances

I'm genuinely surprised that people are not honoring "clear by parantage" dog and bitch matings.
Clear by parentage means that both parents of the individual were cleared of heritable PRA, therefore the offpring would be clear when bred to a clear. Breeding two clear together yields clear offspring, does it not?
It's like any recessive, if both parents do not have the trait nor are either carriers of the trait, your results are going to be clear.
And how often do mutations occur? One in a million? Ten million? Has there ever been evidence to prove that two "clear by parentage" parents have produced a blind dog---ever? I'd like to see the scientific evidence if anyone has it. Am I missing something??

I'm not a DNA expert - I mean that with all sincerity. But, your statement does not make sense to me. Let's say the gene mutates. If it's a mutation who's to say it would be recognized by the current genetic tests available? If my stud dog has a mutated gene for PRA that the Optigen test doesn't recognize he's still going to test clear for the gene the test does recognize. Then, assuming the new gene is still recessive, he has to be bred to a bitch with the same mutated gene to produce PRA correct? Is it possible - nothing is impossible -but it's highly improbable. No one said to stop doing CERF exam which could possibly pick up a new eye problem due to mutated gene.

Everyone should do what they are comfortable with. I have bitches who I am NOT going to pay to test because I know both their parents are clear. If I bred them to clear dogs than NO I'm not testing those offspring either. But, that's just me and my comfort level. The only dogs I'm testing are those who have a parent who is a carrier. Oh, and I don't list a dog as clear by parentage unless both parents have been tested. Otherwise on my website it states clear by pedigree - I'm not falsely advertising clear by parentage. Parentage DNA tests are $25 - still a heck of a lot cheaper than paying Optigen!

From the March Secretary's page of AKC.
"During the month of January the DNA
program resulted in the correction of 176 litter
registrations, affecting 246 registered dogs.
Additionally, the registrations of 163 litters,
including 208 registered dogs, were converted
to conditional registration and the registrations
of 11 litters were canceled, affecting
14 registered dogs. 2 litters were canceled as
a result of impure breeding affecting 3 registered
dogs and 6 litters were canceled as a
result of an inquiry affecting 11 registered
dogs."

I suspect that the breeders of those 176 litters (and owners of those 246 registered dogs) whose registrations were changed all thought the pedigree was correct until DNA testing proved that it was not. Same is true for the other altered or cancelled registrations. I said it in my first post. If I am going to accept a "clear by parentage" claim, then I need the documentation that both parents are not only PRA clear by testing, but that they are actually the parents!

There is no such thing as "clear by grandparentage" or "clear by pedigree". We are really just fooling ourselves into a false sense of security in order to save a few bucks when we use that sort of justification for not testing. That is called being "penny wise and pound foolish." We have the means to end several genetic disorders if we will just use the tests available.

Optigen prcd-PRA testing on dogs of untested parentage is $146.25 with a clinic discount. It is such a small cost compared to all of the other investments we make in breeding. Most Lab breeders wouldn't think of planning a mating without hip/elbow clearances. The cost of the x-rays and evaluation is usually more than PRA testing - and not nearly as useful in determining what the offspring will inherit. The same is true for an echo heart clearance. It is really time to get over the hard feelings about Optigen's early marker test and realize that the best way to know what we are putting into the gene pool is by using the DNA tests available to us. The long-term reward for the breed is well worth the price.

Actually - I'm doing DNA on all my dogs. So, yes I can verify the pedigree. When you submit for a DNA profile if the profile does not match the records for AKC's sire and dam of record (going with the assumption that they have DNA profiles themselves) AKC will catch it. I know several people who have had this happen! If you want to spend the money to pay for a parentage verification piece of paper go ahead. I'm perfectly happy to show anyone copies of DNA profiles and go through with them step by step the process of how you confirm parentage.

Cost of tests are $30 each if you call the AKC breeder relations department. They have been running a special for some time if you buy 3 you get 1 free. You have to call breeder relations for the special pricing and it's paid up front. But, that brings the cost down to less than $25 per dog - if you want to count the cost of testing both parents and the puppy the total cost is still only $75.

We each have the option to do as we feel comfortable. I am comfortable using DNA profiles to confirm the dog is who I claim and go from there. You can choose to do whatever you are comfortable with. I have all the facts!

So when we do a breeding, we should demand DNA tests on all offspring? If I can't trust Optigen by parentage, why should I trust a pedigree without proof positive?

Whoops! No wonder you did not understand the question. I typed "test" when I meant to type "trust". I corrected it, so now it should make more sense.

So, I like what someone else said. Makes sure one of the parents have been Optigen Clear, the other can be by parentage. I would trust that. But since this is all new, great to have, but still new, we need to prove it works and will keep on working. No pups with PRA.

In that case, the simple reply is "Good question!" If people aren't willing to provide proof of a clearance or documentation of "clear by parentage", then can you entrust the future of your breeding to their say so? They may be trustable in general, but do they know all the facts? Ultimately, it is your responsibility to take the initiative for knowing what you are putting into your pups. If you don't have all the facts, then you can't know the risks - for your dogs, their future owners and your future reputation.