Are more clearing for EIC now that is seems to be showing up more ? Seems more stud dogs are clear but not enough. Doing our females may be the only safe way of being sure. Hoped it would just all go away.
Breeding is alway a scare, even with trying to learn all you can.

I've tested all my dogs - 2 out of my 3 boys are clear, one is a carrier. All is listed on my website. I think it's becoming more common, but you should just ask the owner if you're interested in a boy whose status is not listed.

Doing the females is half the answer to the problem, and just as important as testing the studs. If I had a tested stud, I would not accept an untested bitch for breeding. Same sauce for both goose and gander or more like the Golden Rule

If my stud were clear, I really would not care if the bitch were tested. If my dog/bitch was a carrier, then I would only accept tested clear dogs to breed to my carrier. It is no different than PRA status for me.

OK, I am not directing my comments at anyone in particular here.

If I were looking to breed say an EIC clear Optigen A bitch with OFA excellent hips, OFA clear elbows and she had been tested clear by DNA of any particular nasty which may be lurking in the genes. (Said bitch had also had a heart doppler clear test). I would begin my search for a stud who was complimentary to her physical attributes and if I wanted to improve on any of her physical features a dog who excelled in this area and had a pedigree which through my research was strong in the areas I wished to improve on my bitch.

So far, so good.

I am hoping that when I depart this mortal coil that I will do so with the knowlede that I have not done my breed any harm as a result of my breeding choices.

Back to my quest for a stud dog for my girl. I would, once I had satisfied myself that I knew what physical attributes I wanted from my chosen stud dog start looking at the clearances said short list of dogs had.

Ideally I would want a dog with at least the same clearances my bitch has because if I chose a PRA or EIC carrier or affected stud (or for that matter any other condition which can be tested for), I feel that I would be taking a backward step in my breeding program (and for the breed in general) if I did not try to use a stud who had just as clean a background as my bitch.

Please convince me I am wrong in my perception of the correct use of pedigrees/studs and clearances etc. If you can honestly say that it is the wrong way to think and is detrimental to Labradors as a whole and can give me reasons as to why I am wrong, I will happily re-evaluate the way I go about breeding my dogs.

I would qualify all of the above by saying that I would use a carrier, maybe even an affected stud on my clear bitch if I were unable to find a suitable dog with all the clearances I have on my bitch.

Wouldn't everyone's quest be much simpler if all breeders and stud owners did all the available testing and made the results known.

I will give my rose colored glasses a little polish and sit back an wait to see what others think

Hmm... I think genetic testing is an awesome tool and assuming testing results are accurate and infallible (hmm...again) breeding a carrier to a clear still results in unaffected individuals. This testing gives us information so that we can make informed breeding decisions and that seems like a step forward to me.

I once had a top breeder and Lab handler who has been around at least 40 years with dogs tell me that until
you have cleared every sibling in the litter for all the above mentioned (by the way she said that would never happen because the entire litter would never clear) then the nasties are lurking in the gene pool
no matter how clear you think your dog is. THERE is no clean line so pick the best you can with the knowledge at hand, just do not be too surprised when your pups hips fail after you bred excellent to excellent! Or the heart does not clear when you bred
clear to clear. It happens more times than people like to admit. Good thing humans do not have to have all that testing, we would have very few births, how many of us have allergies that we got from one or both parents. My mom would have had to select another
husband. Point of this is we can test our dogs until
the cows come home, we still have the problems show up and I would bet the stats are not any better than they were before all the testing, folks just do not
submit the failures. Hips are no better now than they were 30 years ago. If breeders were all honest they would tell you they get the same percentages now
that they did then. Just because I don't have something does not indicate my sister does not, we share the same genetic makeup and those little devils
can fire at will! It will be a very interesting study to see how the EIC testing effects Labs over the next 20 years. And, yes, I know the test for Optigen and EIC are very different than for hips, hearts, and elbows!

So, are you saying that you would automatically eliminate a wonderful stud that was say an Optigen B but had every other clearance? Isn't that short-sighted? Or an EIC carrier that was outstanding?
I fear that too many "breeders" take the easy way out and that there's a real danger in using the same few "clean" stud dogs over and over again. What happens if down the road, we learn that those studs have previously undiagnosed genetis issues? I believe that has already happened in some cases.

The above poster with the OFA ex bitch and every clearance known to man, is not an insightful breeder, simply a casual person with little in depth knowledge of genetics and the art of breeding quality dogs. Breeding this bitch to a stud dog with like clearances is likely going to give you and every generation there after mediocre puppies with as many faults and health issues as those of us who choose stud dogs with less than perfection in all of their health clearances. One does not breed clearances to clearances, one adult with every clearance known , in a litter, does not make that entire litter genetic clear , you got lucky sweetheart, the rest of the litter most certainly could be dysplastic, optigen B, grade 2 elbows, and questionable cardio workups. You don't know what is lurking in that litter that "perfect" bitch came from UNLESS you kept every puppy from her litter, and did the whole battery of clearances on every puppy ! And then maybe do the same for at least 3 generations, then post a ridiculous scenerio about how PERFECT your brood bitch is ! That is why those of us that have been around a while become so extremely bored with eyes glazed over when we read all of these posts on this forum about CLEARANCES ! I doubt most people that read this will understand what I said, I will not be surprised by that, because those of us that "get it" , no longer try to "teach" or mentor because it is way too time consuming and sucks the life out of us . If you don't think that last statement is true, then WHERE ARE ALL OF THE LONG TIME BREEDERS ON THIS FORUM !!

"WHERE ARE ALL OF THE LONG TIME BREEDERS ON THIS FORUM !!"

Maybe they aren't doing any clearances anymore! Ignoring these clearances saying they have such perfect breed type is just as bad as someone saying they should breed because they have clearances with no regard to breed type.
Unfortunately some who have been around thirty years now believe their own press and are really now doing harm. There has to be a balance between health and type. Breeding dysplastic bitches or PRA carrying dogs just because YOU think they should be bred is a cop out and a detriment to the breed. Everyone breeds just beacause, or because it is a bitch they sunk two years of work into, or because the dog is winning now. Health and breed type have taken a back seat. Sad.

breeder, I think you may have slight literacy problem.

If you read my post you should have noted that I was starting my search with a dog which was physically compatible with my bitch. I would then hopefully find my physically ideal stud dog with the clearances I desired. I would prefer not to compromise on the health issues if I had a choice between a physically suitable stud with all the clearances and an equally physically suitable stud who did not have the clearances. So far, it would appear to be a NO BRAINER don't ya think.

As far as your personal insults regarding my experience and success as a breeder of Labrador Retrievers, I got my first dog in 1975 and have been an exhibitor, progressing to a breeder and a judge (I think that qualifies me as a long time Labrador person. As far as my ability to successfully breed Labradors, I have bred a large number of champions from a small breeding program over the last 35 years. My home bred dogs have won numerous specialties over the years including a run of 6 BISS & a best Opposite Champions from 11 specialty shows. I had the honour of winning best dog & bitch at 6 Labrador specialties in a row!!

I think I know what I am doing!!

If you are going to rubbish me and my dogs (which you have never seen since I do not live in USA), make sure you know what you are talking about before you start firing from the wrong end of your anatomy.

I'm done, I have nothing more to say on this matter.

I am more than happy to still contribute to the thread as long as breeder does the same and refrains from personal attacks.

I couldn't have said it better myself breeder. It is a lost cause.

No Kathy, I am not saying I would eliminate an Optigen B dog, but he would not make it to the top of my #1 choice list. He would be a point of comparison and If I could find a dog which fitted my criteria including the Optigen A, then the clear dog would get the nod

Olivia, you said: "Genetically inherited problems occur due to gene mutation somewhere along the line, so who is to say that your tested clear stock is in the next generation not going to produce puppy with a newly mutated gene?"


If you say that you always have to test for your clearances rather than rely on "parentage" becuase of the chance of genetic mutation, then isn't the reliance of tests such as EIC not all they are cracked up to be? After all, if you breed two "clear" parents I thought the supporters of the test say that ALL offspring would be "clear". Isn't this a contradiction?

A personal attack was never , ever my intention. I thought you were speaking in the hypethetical . I meant no disrespect what so ever. This forum is for opinions, that was my opinion, agreeing to disagree .

I do think we see some long time or breeder/kennels that can keep alot more dogs, experiment alot more than most and must not care if the puppy family may have to pay the price. That to me is very sad. These familys do take care of the majority of these wonderful Labs we are breeding. I will breed to a B dog without thinking twice if he is the one I like, same for Fair, and I would hope the same for EIC carrier, big IF, my bitch were clear. Once in a great while you get to find a good match of A to A. but not always. Will make me decide on that stud. I agree, you will keep on standing still in your breeding program if that is what you do. Clearance to clearance. But stud or bitch, one or other better be clear.

If this was not personal, breeder, then I would hate to see one of your posts that is. You begin by insulting the background and intelligence of someone you know nothing about and then ridicule the whole concept of breeding for genetic refinement. This long-standing practice is what gave us "purebred" animals in the first place. YOUR post demonstrated a lack of insight or in-depth knowledge of genetics, the very accusation you hurled at Ms. Nankivell. I think in psychology they call this "Projection".

You may think your post was a simple disagreement, but it was dripping with disrespect for both the primary target and anyone else that holds a more optimistic opinion about selective breeding. As a long-timer myself (over 40 years) with a similar goal of breed excellence, I was insulted just reading it. You not only disrespected the individual your post was aimed at, but anyone who works diligently to gather desirable genes while trying to filter those that are harmful. You owe an apology, not a smiley face.