I bought a bitch 4 years ago, had a few small show wins, she has 4 points, and a CD. She's quite typey, a big boned girl with gorgeous coat and every clearance known to man.

I just learned that her littermate sibling has produced epilepsy. She had a litter of 4 and in which one of the puppies, now 15 mnths old is epileptic. Has seen a neurologist etc. and is on pheno.

So what now of my girl? I would like to keep showing her, but can I in good concience breed her? My heart and head say no, but her breeder says its a gamble no matter what.

What would you do if one of your girls littermates had produced an epileptic pup, breed them or wash them out?

(And no one involved wants to get in on the request for DNA from these dogs, I've spoken to them multiple times.)

Is there any other history of this in the lines? What about the male's lines that sired the litter?? I hate to throw the baby out with the bath water but sure understand your concerns. Good luck making a decision with your girl!

I would have an honest, face to face visit with the breeder. Not something to discuss via email or over the phone if possible. See if they think they know where it might be coming down from and then make your decisions.

I have been in your spot...it is not easy. Talk with people you trust, do not rely on idle gossip and at the end of the day, make the decision you are comfortable with. Think long term when making your decision.

Good luck...I feel for you.

that is sad they don't care enough to submit blood to help with DNA to hopefully be able to steer totally clear of this affliction one day. Sorry but shame on that breeder. I just don't get it. It's about the dogs! When breeders quit thinking of themselves and truly totally caring about the breed, we'll get this done.

Only you can make the decision to breed your girl or not. Yes, it's a gamble but she does run a risk of producing it if combined with the right male. Yes, it takes two to tango.

I'm sorry about your girl and especially her sibling that is afflicted and the owners but I think you already know your answer.

oh wrote: "that is sad they don't care enough to submit blood to help with DNA to hopefully be able to steer totally clear of this affliction one day. Sorry but shame on that breeder."

I agree! I did not catch this when I skimmed the OP's post the first time. I do not understand why they would not want to submit samples. That is a real shame! This is an opportunity to really help make a difference. Very short sighted.

Tks OP for trying to get the DNA test done though!!!

To Marjorie

You are assuming that epilepsy in Labs :

1. Has a single cause- as much as I'd like that to be the case, I certainly wouldn't stake money on it.

2. Is caused by a single gene. Same comments apply. We are, after all, talking about the central nervous system, an extremely complex and interactive part of the body.

3. Is a simple recessive. If you know this for sure, I'd love to see the evidence.

I had a puppy that was a problem birth a few years ago. He appeared to develop normally but the vet said that there may be a chance that he could have epilepsy as it got older if it had sustained brain damage. So it's not always hereditary either.

For now I would hold off on your girl in the HOPES that more people will submit blood and further the research along so that you will have the tool to give you a definitive answer. She is young and they are close to the number of sibling pairs needed-I would call the family and explain this to them again. Tell them how it directly effects you.
Right now you know in your heart that with the little info we have, continuing this line runs a strong risk that down the road it may produce another problem. Any breeding runs a risk but this is now a known risk.
I'm sorry for you-it is a heartbreak. This is why we need more samples so we can all make informed decisions given any of us finds ourselves in your predicament.

I tend to be on the fence about whether this is simple reccessive or dominant because of my own experience.
I have a boy that was used many times, a lot of different lines. He is older now and retired.
He was bred to one particular bitch 2 times. This bitch was also bred to 1 other stud dog of a totally different pedigree than my boy.
There are to date, 3 pups from my boy out of that bitch who have epilepsy and 1 out of that bitch and the other stud dog who has epilepsy..
My boy has never produced another pup with epilepsy with any other bitches.

The following was in the 12/09 epilepsy research update. It is from Liz Hansen. She is the research co-ordinator, so this is from the horse's mouth.

"”The researchers have found NO evidence that the mode of inheritance is dominant. They have found patterns that indicate inheritance is either recessive or possibly polygenetic."

The message for you and your breeder is, since your bitch's sister is a carrier, your bitch and the breeder's bitch could be carriers or they could be clear.

It has to be better to KNOW than not to know if these two girls are carriers or clear. It is hard to understand why the breeder does not want to participate. When they figure this out and have a test available, YOU WILL BE TOLD WHAT THE GIRLS' STATUS IS. Collecting and shipping the blood would probably cost around $30-40. Which is to say, you could have 3 tests for around $10 to $13 each.

So what I am going to suggest to you is, if the breeder does not want to do the work and pay for the shipping, step up and offer to do it yourself. People can be funny about a lot of things. The objective should be to get the job done. You are in a position to make a real contribution to labradors everywhere and help your breeder and yourself.

Last but not least, don't dump your girl. She may well be clear. People have done their best to breed around this problem for many, many years. You would need to use a stud that has sired lots of litters. You would need to tell the stud dog owner you have seizures back in your line and ask if they think the breeding would be appropriate. Then you have to pray that people are honest. We all know that breeding is not without risks. Until there is a test, this is the best you can do.

I have offered to submit my girl. The breeder of these girls is willing to submit as well.

The breeder who owns the bitch who produced the epileptic puppy has no intentions of submitting nor does she want the family that owns the epileptic puppy to know of such a test in progress.

The sire of the epileptic girl is a boy who has had a lot of use, hundreds of litters I would guess, and I've not heard of any other trouble with him. Not to say he doesn't play a part, simply that if he was to be commonly producing epilepsy, I'm sure he wouldn't be being used so heavily. I'm sure the people who own him would send in blood too, or wouldn't, I don't know what to believe anymore.

I've pretty well decided to sit on my girl for the time being.

Back in the 1990's I used a stud that produced all three colors. That was long before the test for color was available. They had no idea that the dog carried chocolate and it wasn't until his 45th litter that a chocolate puppy was whelped. That is the way the hidden recessives work. They can lurk for generations and then suddenly reappear. These folks were completely surprised.

Sometimes I think that despite all the knowledge we have about genetics there are times when Mother Nature just takes over to remind us that she CAN.

I am not as familiar with epilepsy as with other issues in labradors and clearances. Is there a simple blood test you can do on your dogs that will tell whether they are clear, a carrier or affected and if so, where can you submit it?

There is no test currently available. There is a group of researchers working to find the gene(s) that cause canine epilepsy. In order to begin the initial mapping study, they need to have blood from 25 sibling pairs. One dog should have seizures and the other should not have seizures. We started a year ago with zero pairs. We currently are up to 18 pairs.

You can find information about the study at: http://www.tulgeywoodlabs.com/pages/EpilepsyResearch.html

Note to Nothing Ventured:

Just re-read your last post. Blood from your girl and her dam might be very useful in the research. Call Liz Hanzen and she can tell you one way or the other. 573 884-3712

To Peggy: First of all, I "assume" nothing. Secondly, you should have taken this "off board" and e-mailed me privately (if you want to challange me on this). The only reason I'm even responding is because my head is not in the sand.

Wow. I did not take this as a personal challenge. I don't know Peggy personally, but I do know that she has a strong scientific background as a professor of biology involved in gene sequencing. JMO, and a couple facts.

I too did not get that Peggy was making a personal challenge. She simply was inquiring about the research for the facts you stated as most of us are not aware of a difinative mode of inheritance...something that was also shared by another poster directly from the researchers who are currently working on this.

I did mean it as a challenge- perhaps we should call it a request- to demonstrate that you know more about this disorder than I do, what is entirely possible. For all I knew, you are part of the research team that is investigating epilepsy and have definitive proof of the assumptions behind your statement, which can only be true if you assume that epilepsy is always caused by a single recessive gene which is the same in all Labradors.

And yes, I teach genetics and have (brag alert) just had a paper accepted for publication in Developmental and Comparative Immunology. The paper described a gene in sea urchins that is their equivalent of genes in vertebrates that are involved in formation of blood cells and blood vessels.

Okay, I stand most definitely corrected on my word choice. Your paper sounds far beyond my knowledge of sea urchins. The research may have interesting medical applications, would be my guess. Sea urchins--in the midwest? Life is curious, ever so far from Stanford and the sea!

FWIW There is more than one form of inherited epilepsy in humans. It is theorized that there are multiple mutations which cause seizures in dogs as well. This would explain why not all seizures present in the same way.

Another thought, my obedience instructor said to never keep a pup which needed resuscitation at birth. She knew of several dogs which seized - all had been resuscitated at birth and several vets gave this as cause of the seizures. Lack of oxygen due to any trauma is more likely to cause subsequent seizures. This post had me thinking of my patients in the neuro ICU when I worked as an RN. It was not uncommon for them to have seizures after neuro trauma and we neve considered these seizures as having a possible hereditary component. So I am curious if the seizing pup has had some type of trauma at birth or since then.

Another thought, my obedience instructor said to never keep a pup which needed resuscitation at birth. She knew of several dogs which seized - all had been resuscitated at birth and several vets gave this as cause of the seizures. Lack of oxygen due to any trauma is more likely to cause subsequent seizures. This post had me thinking of my patients in the neuro ICU when I worked as an RN. It was not uncommon for them to have seizures after neuro trauma and we never considered these seizures as having a possible hereditary component. So I am curious if the seizing pup has had some type of trauma at birth or since then.

No, it is not always hereditary. If you have access to a seizing dog & its littermate but don't know if it is hereditary or otherwise, call Liz Hansen and ask. She can tell you if what you are seeing would be appropriate for the research or not. 573 884-3712 You don't even have to identify yourself. Some seizing dogs' blood would not be helpful for the research.

Charlotte, I didn't mean to correct you on your word choice. You are always rational in your responses and seem to be very well informed on many issues. But I did want to find out whether there was any real information behind the statement Marjorie was making, because it did seem that she was so certain that we are dealing with a recessive allele at a single locus. I did wonder if she knew something I didn't. Thank you to the responder who summarized the findings of the researchers so far. Obviously they do not yet know that they are dealing with a simple recessive gene. I would like to know how they have ruled out the possibility of a dominant with incomplete penetrance. That's a tough one to rule out. For what it is worth, I don't have any seizuring dogs, so I can't contribute to the study myself.

Canine Health Foundation News Alert

Podcast Released about Neurology with Dr. David Brewer [Thursday, April 8, 2010]

The Canine Health Foundation is pleased to announce the publication of the next podcast in the Genome Barks series.

This week on Genome Barks we welcome Dr. David Brewer, a resident in neurology at Cornell University's College of Veterinary Medicine. Dr. Brewer discusses the various genetic tests that are available for neurologic diseases, and explains epilepsy - what it is, how it gets diagnosed and what treatment options are available.

The Genome Barks podcast series features lectures from the highly successful AKC and CHF Breeders Symposia and provides responsible breeders and pet owners an inside look at the work being done by the Canine Health Foundation.

New podcasts are released every two weeks and can be accessed from the Canine Health Foundation website at www.CanineHealthFoundation.org - click on "Podcasts." They are also available on Apple's iTunes or directly at www.genomebarks.com.

Clubs are encouraged to add the Genome Barks Podcast link to their home pages. Contact the Canine Health Foundation to obtain graphics and links.

Click here to listen to the podcasts.

Click here to support important research at the Canine Health Foundation and please consider a recurring gift.

Contact:
Erika Werne
Director of Education & Communications
Canine Health Foundation
919-334-4010
888-682-9696
www.CanineHealthFoundation.org

The Canine Health Foundation, founded in 1995, is the largest nonprofit worldwide to fund health research exclusively for canines. Our goal is to help dogs live longer, healthier lives. The Canine Health Foundation is the leader in non-invasive genetic health research, stem cell research, and biotherapeutics benefiting both canines and humans. Through the generous financial support of NestlPurina PetCare Co. and the American Kennel Club as well as thousands of clubs and individuals, we’re proud to announce we have allocated nearly $24 million to canine health research at veterinary schools and research institutions worldwide.

Once again, here is the word from researchers at U. Missouri .

"”The researchers have found NO evidence that the mode of inheritance is dominant. They have found patterns that indicate inheritance is either recessive or possibly polygenetic."

And don't forget, their knowledge is garnered from more than just labrador retrievers. Several other breeds are waaaaaaay ahead of us because they have gotten behind this research and supported it with the blood needed for the research.

A year ago, the Greater Swiss Mountain Dog community, with their much smaller numbers, had sent in blood from over 1000 dogs. As a matter of fact, in 2009 the labrador was first in numbers. The GSMD was 101st.

Joan, I have been following your posts for quite some time in regards to your support on Epilepsy research. I understand recessive inheritance, but what is polygentic inheritance? Also, when the researchers get the 25 pairs, I wonder how long it will take to reach a conclusion? Thank you for your posts and for keeping us up to date.

Polygenetic means that more than one gene is involved.

It can take a long time to solve these puzzles. Think about PRA. I have no idea when they first started trying to solve that one, but I think most people remember that it took quite a while. The first test was a marker test and got many false positives. After more time and with blood from the marker tests, the gene test was developed. The first date I recall is the big Receiver scare in the late 1980's. If you were around then you recall some breeders removed all related dogs from their breeding programs. The rumor mill was in high gear. And some will remember the bravely published "PRA Data" by Georgia Gooch.

MORE BLOOD = FASTER RESULTS. I only wish more people would get on board.

I wanted to mention there are several different causes of epilipsey and one of them is envierment don't throw the baby out with the bath water i would research more throughly before making a decission and be up front with puppy buyers if you do breed her and of course make sure you do your best to breed to clean line....very hard because this is not something you hear of all the time. I wish you the best but this is a personal decission and you have to live with what ever you decide.

"The sire of the epileptic girl is a boy who has had a lot of use, hundreds of litters I would guess, and I've not heard of any other trouble with him. Not to say he doesn't play a part, simply that if he was to be commonly producing epilepsy, I'm sure he wouldn't be being used so heavily."

I would be careful about thinking that way. I neutered and placed a very promising male, sired by very, very prominent boy. My young male had one very mild seisure and nothing that I knew of after that. I had asked around before I bred to this stud and nobody would be truthful. But, after I stated the issue, multiple people told me of other offspring who had seisured. I spayed his sibling and placed her as well. I just will not subject people and their beloved pets to a life of seisures, medication and trauma. Sit on your girl and pray the genetic test is soon.

Charlotte, I didn't have time to reply to the sea urchin stuff last evening. The strange thing is that you can do genetic research today without ever seeing your experimental organism because you are using a library of DNA, consisting of fragments of sea urchin DNA cloned in bacteria and frozen in a -80 degree freezer. When you want more DNA, you thaw a few of the appropriate bacteria, grow up a culture, and isolate DNA from them. In fact, I spent a whole sabbatical working on this paper and didn't even thaw a bacterium! I was comparing the sequence of the gene that I had already worked out with data stored in computer databases to study how it related to genes in other organisms. Some of the work described in the paper did require live sea urchins, but it was done by collaborators at George Washington U. and Toronto. However, we do have a marine aquarium at my college , and I have worked on live sea urchins in the past. Sea urchins are members of a phylum of invertebrates that is closely related to the phylum to which vertebrates belong and have some important immunological molecules in common with vertebrates. This gene is expressed in the sea urchin equivalent of white blood cells, which is why immunologists are interested in it. The vertebrate equivalents are the Tie proteins, which have been heavily studied because they play a role in cancer and in restructuring of blood vessels. Now I promise I will not write any more about sea urchins.

That is hard to believe. Do they think they are hidden. We do know of that many easy. And with other problems EIC, Heart and some don't do their homework and keep using them. Crazy.

That was interesting. Let's hope the sea urchin work can help folks and our dogs with cancer or other issues some day! Just as work on dog disorders is done in part to help people with genetic disorders.