I have a bitch that was finally diagnosed with a PF (after a year of problems). My original vet thought that she had infected anal glands but that is the the case. We are on the 5th type of treatment and it is still not working so the last resort is a combination of antiobiotics that she would have to be on for 2 months at roughly $200 to $300 per month. I have no problem with the cost and really want this bitch to get well. Now for my situation

I was hoping to breed this bitch when she comes in season in the next couple of months but my vet and I both do not think it is a very good idea because of the drainage and I would not want to put her under additional stress (even though she still acts completely normal which is very active). There also could be a potential problem with her reproduction system on these antibiotics (cyclosporine and ketoconazole).

My question is - has anyone ever had this problem before and actual done a breeding? She has only had one litter when she was 2 and she will be 4 in September but if need be, I will skip this season.

Please no flames, just seeking more information and I may have already answered my own question. I do have a great vet.

I'd skip this season. With a fistula, there's an area that is ulcerated, and it can be painful. If the antibiotics only clear up the inflammation, I would think any pressure (ie. pushing out puppies) would be painful or irritating for her.

I'd skip it and wait until she was 100%.

Good luck treating the fistula, I had a boy have one as a youngster, and once it was resolved he's been perfect for 8 years.

"Breeder again". Do you remember what treatment you used on your boy? I know it has been a while. You can contact me directly at QRLabs@yahoo.com.

Thanks

How does one know that a dog has a PF? What are the symptoms?

There is a hole (or more than one) that drains pus and blood (yuck) near the anus. At times it can look like the anal glands are draining but usually it is just this funky fluid. Because of the bacteria, the hair around the anal area gets discolored in the yellows, sort of like the eye stains. My bitch happens to be yellow so it is very noticible.

Not a pretty sight.

Oh Yeah. Have a boy who has had the fistula for 2.5yrs now. Yes, that long. It is finally a very small hole that is smaller than the size of the eraser on the top of a pencil.

My boy was on antibiotics (cephalexin) for a long time. He was also treated with steriod (Pred.). He was also on a topical ointment in the first year. Vet says the only way to really reduce the occurance in a male is to neuter. Not sure about females.

The fistula is one of those things that I really never want again. I have missed out on prime years of showing this dog who is now retired. He is now retired and he is now also sterile.

Interestingly enough, I have seen the best healing of this fistula after I changed foods. I don't know if there is a correlation or not. This dog doesn't have allergy issues. I changed foods merely because the dog had become overweight.

I feel for you. I actually tried changing foods as well (to a grain free) and there was no change. We even did surgury to open the fistula, clean out the pocket, stitch again and put in a drain. The hole never healed. I have heard that spaying can help but I am not ready to go that route quite yet.

What a mess!

I kept detailed instructions about his fistula, yes many years ago (thank goodness) and have never (thank goodness) needed them again.

I had the good fortunate to be then living near a veterinary school, and so here's the protocol

Iodine flush directly to the affected area and localized antibiotic injection (Baytril 100mg) every second day along with oral antibiotics (cephalexin 250mg) twice a day. We did this for three weeks, then only oral antibiotics for 5 weeks for a total of two months.

We did shave the hair from the area and douche with saline soultion three times a day.

I also found (for the above poster) that some foods aggrivated the old fistula before his diagnosis. I was told that the fistula probably relieved itself with a larger granule of food. Some food is digested leaving larger granules. His resolution, by chance began when we started feeding raw, and not because it was an allergy, but because the particles in the stool from raw are not as large as the particles in some kibbles.

I am curious Cindy, why on earth a spay would help the fistula? I've never heard of that before and doesn't at all seem logical to me.

I am not really sure why, but it was suggested by my other vet. I assume it had something to do with hormones but I am not that desperate - yet.

Thanks for the information on your treatment protocol. I have printed it out and will take it with me to the vet for our appointment next week.

Please. What are the symptoms? Scratching, biting, swelling, rubbing, running around in circles.

Here is the link to Merck Veterinary site that describes it. There are many more sites that also give VERY explicit photo's.

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/20603.htm

I think there is evidence that it's immune mediated like allergies. I don't know if I would breed her at all.

If you changed diets to grain free then I think you went in the wrong direction, grains might be beneficial here.

Yes, I had an older neutred boy with this problem. My vet has treated him with all different kinds of antibiotics. It would heal but just broke out again. Surgery is the cure but it is a touchy kind of surgery because of all of the canals in that area. Took him to another vet. She flushed him. There were sevral holes. We thought just one. They were all connected. A good thing. After flushing him she infused him with probably Animax. He was then put on Clavamox. We went back every few weeks and she would flush and infuse him again. Finally it is healed. I do watch though because this is something that heals from within and they like to keep the opening so that it can drain. He has a scar there and just hope it does not come back. I really tried to avoid the surgery. I am sure your vet knows how to do this procedure. It is just time consuming to have the procedure done. good luck and hope this helps a littel. I don't think allergies or dog food have anything to do with it. E llie

I did some research into ketoconazole not too long ago and found that it can effect the liver in humans so it is suspected it may be the same in dogs. This is with long term oral use - 2 plus weeks I believe.

You may want to consider checking liver enzymes while your girl is on this drug.

I am also wondering if they have determined if this problem is fungal or bacterial. Antibiotics are for bacteria and ketoconazole is an antifungal.

If it is fungal oil of oregano orally is an antifungal, so is alfalfa.

Good luck with your treatment and prayers you can get this cleared up and healed.

A full culture was done and it bacterial not fungal. The combination of the cyclosporine and the ketoconozole is supposed to work better than just the cyclosporine (and cost a little less). We already know that we have to do periodic bloodwork to check liver/kidney since the treatment is supposed to take 2 months or more.

Thanks Patty for your prayers. This has been such a nightmare for both of us. I just want her to get better since she is my performance dog and at times, she is having trouble with the sit, especially on prickly grass.

I have a dog on keto for more than 2 years and there are no liver problems in dogs from it according to my vet. Who suspected it causes it in dogs? Can you show me the link please?

My dog that is on keto has blood work once a year, every year. My vet does not feel it is necessary to do more often.

I don't want to worry about my dog needlessly.

I am sorry for the interruption Cindy. Keto allows for less cyclosporine to be adminstered to your dog with the same results usually. If anything is strong, works well & is expensive, it's the cyclosporine. Ouch, on the cost. I think you know that already.

The Merck article sums it up wonderfully and I feel they're correct but again, talk to your vet before you make any changes.

I am sure if your vet felt the need for bloodwork to check liver enzymes more often, they would be doing it.

This board is wonderful but sometimes people need to realize that their statememts can be upsetting for breeders or incorrect. If you're in doubt, speak to your vet and please don't use home remedies without asking your vet.

Good wishes for your girl and you Cindy. I hope things work out well. She is on the best medical protocal I have heard of for her problem but again, I am not a vet.

Taken from: (I was incorrect as to length of time. This article says 2 plus months - not weeks)

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:NkNUC1Z2310J:veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp%3Fid%3D5681+Malassezia+dermatitis+in+dogs+veterinarynews.dvm360.com&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

"Antifungals can also be teratogenic and lower testosterone levels. Ketoconazole can elevate liver enzymes in humans so it is advisable to monitor serum profiles in canine and feline patients on ketoconazole (and the other azoles) longer than two months. Itraconazole (Sporanox) is dosed at 5mg/kg/day orally. It is more expensive than ketoconazole yet does not tend to cause as many gastrointestinal side effects."

I posted what I did because I would hate to see a dog end up with liver issues - not to scare anyone.

It is up to the individual but I would test my dogs to be on the safe side.

Cindy, interesting about the combo of drugs for bacteria. Please let us know how your girl does.

Do you have any medical training or personal experience with fistulas or the drugs involved?

The dog I had with PF did not develop it UNTIL he was neutered (within a month). His were really bad and didn't respond to treatment.

The link is not correct, it's cached. The correct link to the 1 page you read in your *research* is http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=5681 .

You should realize that you can frighten people by making statements like you did based on a page on the internet. You're not a vet are you as another breeder asked? You can do what you want with your dogs but please don't tell others how & when to test their dogs and your reasons for your advice. You scare them sometimes and did scare me.

My Lab is on Keto for an unlimited amount of time. I allow my vet to advise me about bloodwork and medications, that is what I pay him for. I don't like to take advice from someone on a board that read 1 page about Keto and anti-fungals. He prescribed the medications and decided when bloodwork is done and he will continue to.

I called him this afternoon to schedule early bloodwork due to your post. He said that we will continue with the same bloodwork that has been normal for the 2.5 years my Lab is on Keto and explained why. He also told me not to listen to people that are not practicing in the veterinary field. He's right.

The OP is having enough problems with her dog without confusing her even more. She has a vet and you don't seem to have experience with her dogs problem to send or post to her. If you did, I am sure you would have stated that.

I think you should keep your advice and alternate medicines, natural or not, for yourself & your dogs and stop telling others what to do. Thank you.

To "Not a Vet", it takes alot more than a post this list to scare or intimidate me. I asked for information and received many good replies. When I do make this kind of request, I take the information given and pull out what I feel is important enough to discuss with my vet. No more, no less.

There are often times that people have had similar situations and do have very good information. Drugs often have bad side effects and it is good to be aware of them without overreacting. I take the information and do my own research from that.

I have learned more about PF's than I ever wanted to. Until this bitch was diagnosed, I had never even heard of them! But now, I feel I am educated and hope that we can get them cleared up and that I never have to deal with them again.

This list is a good place to get information and I learn much from some of the threads.

So to everyone who provided me with very good information, I thank you.

Cindy the OP

Many years ago I had a young yellow lab of mine on Ketoconazole for some skin problems. He was on it for about 6 months.

We had two "issues" with it - first one was that his testicles shrunk and he became infertile. When we stopped the meds though he went back to normal and he sired several litters afterwards.

The second problem might not bother you at all. His black pigment turned brown on his nose leather, his eye rims and his foot pads. It never returned to black. He had excellent pigment before and at 11 he still hasn't ever had much of a snow nose, but he sure still does have brown pigment!

Bonnie

That is interesting! I would certainly trade pigment for her health. I do not show her in conformation so the brown pigment is a non issue to me.

Thanks for your input too! Wow I am learning alog.

Bonnie, that is interesting! And something I did not find in my research. Learned something new today! Thanks for sharing.