My question now is, how many of you have had successful sections with a spay is done at the same time ?

This vet at the emergency hospital where we normally take our dogs, is now trying to tell me it's just as easy to do a spay while doing the c-section. I asked him if her milk would come in ok by doing both. He said sometimes the bitch dries up on a routine c-section and if he spays our girl, I really want her to be able to nurse.

I told him I was planning to spay her anyway but I feel more comfortable waiting until after her little puppy is raised. How many rights do we as breeders have about these decisions when our girls are in getting a c-section ?

IF he goes ahead and spays her without my permission, what rights do I have as Lola's owner ?

I did it once. i had no choice as the bitch's uterus ruptured. I would never do it again. it was much harder for my girl to bounce back versus just a C-section. DON'T DO IT!!!

That's what I was afraid of so if I show up tommorow for the C-section. This younger vet who took Lola's radiographs yesterday tried to tell me this morning, that if he spayed her at the same time, it would prevent her from developing a uterus infection say from retained placenta ? Is this vet feeding me a line of bull or what ?
Can't they take any retained placentas out at the time of the Section ?

The younger vet doesn't know what he's talking about. After a section they check for ANYTHING - DUH!!!! I've seen both done (not by choice on spaying at the same time) and the milk came in just fine - it was the difference in recovery time on Mom that was really noticeable. I don't like having to put dogs under more often than necessary but in this case, IMHO, it's the lesser of two evils. Good luck with your girl/pup - please BE THERE and be VERY specific about what you want/don't want. It's YOUR girl & YOUR decision.

If this young vet is concerned about infection from a retained placenta after a C than I would find another vet to do the C.

I agree with the others. Don't spay her at the same time.

Wishing you all the best with your singleton.

A couple yrs ago I was on the hunt for a new vet clinic. I thought I found just the right Vet for our dogs then I found out that this vet, along with his son, a vet do routine spays when someone comes in to them with a dog that needs a c-section. I said, yeah but I am a breeder so why would I want a C-section when my girl is not retired yet. He said that it's their practice to spay all c-section cases.

I'm finding more and more vets in our area who don't necessarily like to deal with breeders...I think it is because breeders tend to question vets too much and some don't like that.

I just had a section done-my vet advised me NOT to spay (not that I wanted to but they knew this was her last litter) because it dries up the milk and is more traumatic to the body. All placentas were removed, a clean out shot was given. Milk was light for a few days afterwards which everyone told me would happen but pups gained okay and now milk is fine.
You need to be the voice for your girl-if that were my vet I would be looking elsewhere-they don't have her best interest at heart-sorry.

Do you have another vet to do the C-section? New vets don't know anything about Repro other than Spay and Neuter. My vet is repro specialist and his new vet in the clinic told me that at school they never learn about reproduction in small species, only to spay and neuter. I will NEVER do a C-section and Spay unless is an emergency (rupture uterus, etc). This topic has been discussed many times in this forum, and is a big risk for the girls. Please try to take her with another vet that at least has a good record on c-sections and don't push for spaying, there are butchers out there.

My repro vet does not recommend spaying at this time- too much risk of bleeding. Maybe your emergency hospital is better staffed than the one in this area, but that is the last place I would go for veterinary advice!

I was on the phone for the past 2 days trying to find one of my regular vets I trust to do the C-section. They were all booked up or they no longer do C-sections, just normal day to day procedures such as spays and neutures, dental work, radiographs etc.

This vet hospital in Bellevue has alot of good drs on staff and they do routine emergnecy and scheduled spays all the time so they have the experience. My only beef now is how this young vet is pushing for a spay at the same time. I do have a back up Emergency vet clniic that is fairly new here in Renton but I don't know anything about them at this point. I have history with the vet hospital in Bellevue which is the only reason why I am sticking with them for the Csection. I'm going to write in BOLD LETTERS " DO NOT SPAY " when I sign the surgery papers, on top of verbally telling the dr.

And being there you can be sure to enforce your decision unless absolutely necessary of course.

Peggy, what do you mean that is the last place you would go for veterinary advise...your vet or the one I am currently using for Lola's section ? Confused ??

I've only been to this veterinaly ER hospital during the night time and after hours in the evening. Yesterday was the first time I showed up during morning hours and let me tell you, they had Vets and tech people running all over the place, getting things done. I do feel they are competent at what they do but maybe a bit pushy trying to make more $$$$ by doing spays or maybe just not as knowledgeable about what these bitches go through once they leave their hospital from a spay and section. If they don't breed dogs, the only way they would have of knowing the consequences of performing spays with Sections is if the breeders tell them what happened.
When I told this vet that I had asked advise on our International Labrador Forum concerning Lola's singlton puppy and the general consensus was to do a Section on Lola rather than waiting to see if she whelps on her own, this vet sort of ran out of arguments on why I should wait it out. I'm hoping he sees the light when I show up tommorow morning for Lola's section per all of you long time breeder's advise against spaying at time of C-section. He'll probably add me to their long list of breeder clients who are nut jobs but that is ok as long as Lola and her pup come home healthy.

Can't you get a different vet (older) that you can trust at Bellevue to do the C?

Can you call one of the vets you have worked with in the past at Bellevue and explain your concerns of this young vet wanting to spay and get another vet to do the C?

Can you maybe call the manager or the head vet of the place you are going and talk to them about what the young vet said? They work there but are most likely NOT IN CHARGE. I would want my wishes known by the person in charge of the facility, even if you have to deal with that young vet.

Stand your ground & you'll be setting a good foundation for any future dealings with this younger vet. I'd be talking to a vet there that I'd already dealt with and the owner/managing partner to be SURE it was understood NOT to spay unless absolutely necessary and with your consent even then.

Never would I do it. The young vet doing the surgery should be able to tell if there is a retained placenta. I have had several singleton C sections and never even heard of this. Are you sure he is competent?? Some of them are on this "no breed" kick and, you know what?? If nobody breeds, who will they have as clients?? Food for thought. Ellir

U R so right Ellie. Sometimes I think that " Book Smart " is highly over rated and Common Sense should be taken more seriously in the world of vetinerary and human medicine.

Try and remember that that old vet that you love & trust was once a newbie too and may have had some wild & crazy ideas too. We all have to start somewhere & hopefully with experience, learn practical vs. book smarts along the way. Chances are if a vet doesn't, he won't have you as a client for long. In fact after much frustration and wasted time (in hindsight) I request ANY other vet than one in particular at our clinic. The managing partners (vets) know why & this vet's days there are numbered. I know I'm not the only long standing client at the clinic that will NOT use this vet.

I meant the emergency vet clinic in my area. The vets are numerous and constantly changing- you never see the same person twice. Many are young and inexperienced. I once had a biopsy done on an injury to a bone, and the pathology report came back osteosarcoma on a 4 month old puppy. I asked the vet if he would expect to see osteosarcoma on such a young dog, and he admitted it would be unlikely, also the location was unusual. I demanded a second opinion- it came back normal healing tissue. That pup is now 13 years old. I'm sure my regular vet would have questioned that diagnosis - the emergency vet took it at face value! A friend had LP surgery done on her old male, a NFC, and he almost bled to death. Original surgery plus repairing the botched attempt- $7000. I realize you don't have an options, and you seem to know some of the vets there, so maybe the situation is different for the clinic as a whole.

Any experienced vet that I've ever talked to about it would tell you not to do an optional spay at that time. This fellow doesn't know what he is doing or is trying to get extra money at your girl's expense.

I would avoid a spay at all costs at the same time as a c-section.

There was a breeder that swore by doing both. I later found out he did not know as much as he professed to about lots in the breed. He was the only breeder I knew that felt spays were good done at the time of a c-section. I repeat, the *only* breeder I knew that felt this way. I have never heard of another breeder feeling that way again in over 20 years.

You have the final say. You can spay your bitch in a few months or a year. Don't allow them to do it at the same time as the c-section unless there are serious complications. Both are bloody surgeries due to the uterine horns having heavy vascular supply especially during the pregnancy of even a singleton.

One procedure is more than enough for the day. It is your bitch and your right to express what you want done. You have the right to have anything you want done timed when you want it done. Make it very clear, no spay on the same day as the c-section, the bottom line. I would have it written on the front of her chart by the office staff so no errors are made by *accident* .

Come to think of it, I, myself had 2 C-sections. Did fine on the first one but when my dr did the 2nd planned c-sections..I had a dickens of a time with the 2nd Csection, perhaps because at the time my dr tied my tubes. I do think the more a dr or vet gets in your body and tries to cut too many things, it takes a harder toll on the body.

I checked this young dr's stats out on the hospital's website. He graduated from vet school in 2003. Still wet behind the ears

This sounds like what happened to me when I brought my girl in for a c-section and the vet that did the surgery wasn't the one I thought was doing it. The one that did it was a proponent of spay/neuter and insisted that my bitch be spayed. When I asked why he said because she needs a section, I said "So what, it's not like she can't succesfully have another litter and the risk hemmorhage from spaying during a section is higher ".
Then during the section I was told they needed to spay my girl -apparently it "tore" when they went in because he gave her a shot of Oxytocin first before doing the section. I reminded him I never authorized that they try to get the puppies out that way and I told him to repair her uterus and he'd damn well better fix it correctly or I would know about it and basically I then told him I would hunt him down and sue his ass off if he didn't fix it well.He did repair it and then I pulled all of my dogs from that vet hospital. Sorry but I can't go to practice that tries to shove spay/neuter down my throat. And I heard that that vet is no longer with that practice, oh well...

My repro vet will only do a spay if she can't repair a uterus and I had 2 that weren't repairable. It is a risk for more bleeding due to the high vascularity of the uterus, I was fortunate my girls managed fine and their milk came in without any problems. They just rested alot more and I watched them like a hawk.

Checking to see how the C went and if vet followed your instructions.

Hoping you have a strong healthy pup.

Thanks..we just dropped her off at the hospital at 9:00 this morning and she is scheduled to have only the C-section at 10:30. The same vet came out to the waiting room after I had told the receptionist that I am refusing the spay that this vet had scheduled along with the C-section. He tried to talk me into it and I made sure I signed to not have her spayed. I told the vet that I am a hobby breeder after all and since I have yet to get a "Keeper" out of her other 2 litters, I really want to think about whether I want her to have 1 more litter or just spay her in 3 months. He's kind of an argumentative young buck but I stood my ground.
When we walked into the hospital this morning, Lola started dancing on her hind feet with her million dollar grin. I swear she knew today was the day and she would at last get her baby to smother in kisses. Maybe she'll stop obsessing over our choc girl's 8 puppies. Lola will lay down outside of Layala's expen area where the pool is, looking so forlorn with a sad face. When the choco puppies start crying, Lola is right there wanting to bust in that expen area to mother those pups . Layla won't have anything to do with Lola's offer to help her out.

She sounds like our 6 yr old boy's Mom - she'd mother ANYTHING and LOVED taking over pups when the opportunity arose. Glad you got your point across with the vet. Pls send an update when you can. TIA

Still hoping for a good update that you have a healthy singleton.........

Worked for a vet and watched a dog die on the table doing a spay the same time as a c-section. I can still hear the owner of the dog screaming when he was told. Don't let some young whipper snapper who thinks he knows everything tell you what is best for your bitch.

Sorry, I posted above before I saw what you wrote. That's great you told the vet you were holding off on the spay. Best of luck to you, momma and her new baby.