A friend's 2-year old dog had this x-ray taken recently. Anyone want to give it a read?

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab332/Labbreeder/OFAHipXray.jpg

Well I see no one else is either up yet or willing to jump into the fray.....

The positioning is decent - off a little, but decent.

I would expect a fair basically due to the right hip. The pelvis is just a hair rotated on that side, but not enough to make a huge change in it. The ligament attachments on the tops of the femurs is fairly shallow and the heads are somewhat flat.

I would not expect more than a fair. OFA has surprised us all at some point, but after 18 years of reading hip films at work (RVT) I've gotten pretty good.

Based on what OFA seems to be doing lately I would say you are going to get Mild and Fair,the heads are flattened and they are seated a bit on the shallow side.
Please let us know what the actual result is, it is educational for us to see what they are grading and don't forget to ask for the "Poll" results, the readings of all 3 that evaluated this dog, you'd be suprised what the difference is!!!

I submitted one this year that looked a lot like that. It got one Fair and two Mild readings.

This one got excellent

This one got excellent.

I would grade the first a fair taking into consideration the left side is decent and the second two are definitely excellent with terrific coverage and seats.

The first one may end up with a mild rating because of that right side. If so you could resubmit and try to get a better film since that right side is borderline.

Sorry, I changed my name. I didn't realized the OP was breeder too.
These are the results I got back. Both excellent.

"Got this Results", please do tell who shoots your films! Excellent positioning and clarity of films. Would love to know if they might be somewhere in PA/NJ/MD! Had one in MD who studied under Dr. Keller and did excellent positioning, but he retired from his practice due to health a few years back.

Yes, I know good films won't make bad hips look better or mask a problem, but we all want proper positioning.

Congrats on those 2 Excellents.

Were those 2 excellents with or without sedation.

Great positioning.

No Sedation.

Thanks for asking Val, I hesitated to. I also offer my congratulations on both OFA Exc ratings on your beautiful films to *Got this results*.

I got screwed by poor positioning twice and threw the babies out with the bath water. :-( Now, that decision was my fault. Since then, I also will travel for proper placement.

How do I know it was the placement before someone asks? Both dogs were xrayed by their new owner while under anesthesia for neutering. Their vet wanted to see how bad the HD was in case additional exercise restrictions were needed. I had made recommendations regarding their exercise and gave them a month of Cosequin per dog.

Well, boy no.1 was OFA Good, boy no.2 was OFA Exc.! The vet has since relocated to another coast or I would use him for everything. His films were nicer than any of mine prior and were in the early days of digital xrays. My vet had done standard radiographs but that was not the reason for differing ratings. The vet did not tell OFA either dog had been rated before.

I had shot myself in the feet by not repeating the films with someone else. Please, learn from my these mistakes, vet that didn't know how to place properly & consistently & also my err in judgement re-homing the boys based on 1 xray. Re-homing is omething I have a hard time doing anyways. It as a good thing I didn't spay their Mum which I considered. It was her 1st litter, I thought she was producing orthopedic problems when 2 of 2 keepers both failed hip scores.

I still can not understand why OFA doesn't return poor placement xrays. They do with fuzzy xrays and ask that you repeat them in 6 mo. Is Dr. Keller afraid of complaints from the vets placing improperly? Why not refuse poor placement xrays if that is the sole reason that lowers the OFA Hip or Elbow scores?

I also am not looking for anything but good, preferrably digital films with proper placement.

Maybe you would be willing to provide the vets name privately thru email? I can understand not posting his or her name on a public list.

Thanks for allowing us to see these radiographs. I hope the comments and your OFA Exc films help the OP.

I too placed puppies based on 1 not so good x-ray. I know better now. You got to use a good radiologist. It does not have to be an specialist, just someone that knows what he/she is doing.

For the ones that have not yet read this article:
The Importance of Good Positioning on Canine Hip X-rays: http://leerburg.com/hipart.htm

That article is the best around with excellent photographs of radiographs. I recommend it be read also. Much can be learned from it.

Since it seems OFA continues to grade from "so so" quality of films and not send them back to re-do... I would venture to say in the majority of cases when positioning or clarity isn't right on, wouldn't it be great if OFA started rating the quality (taking into account positioning and clarity) of the films the OFA grading was based upon. Maybe OFA should assign a 0 - 5 rating system, say have 0 as excellent quality, and have it included on the report sent back to the vet shooting the films and also on the owner's copy of OFA report. More info for the owner, such as getting OFA grade "Fair" based on "3 quality" of xray. Maybe then the vet would strive for better positioning and the owner can make a decision to re-do and resubmit or if whether they'd want to use that vet or radiologist again for shooting films. Just a thought and very wishful thinking.

Has anyone ever called OFA when they got results back and asked what they thought of positioning/quality of films and gotten an answer?

After looking at some of those BAD hips and x-rays, I have never really had a dog with bad hips. Some of those of other breeds are so sad. I have never seen such bad positioning either. Thank goodness.

I think that vets that do OFA should be certified by OFA. PennHip requires a certification to work with them. OFA should do the same.

I'm not sure certification is the total answer, maybe a start ... but when they have to start redoing films and it costs them money to redo, hit them in the pocket book, they'll either stop doing films for OFA submission or learn proper positioning and how important it is.

You have some wonderful ideas Val. I think along a similar vein.

Thanks... I'm going to email OFA and ask if something like this can be implemented. Since they already have a radiologist on staff that is supposed to look at the films soon as they arrive to assess diagnostic quality, I can't see why they can't assign a grading re quality and report that to the vet and owner.

From the OFA site (OFA Handling Procedures):
"The board-certified veterinary radiologist on staff at the OFA screens the radiographs for diagnostic quality. If it is not suitable for diagnostic quality (poor positioning, too light, too dark or image blurring from motion), it is returned to the referring veterinarian with a written request that it be repeated."

Maybe if a number of us write and make the request, it would get some consideration.

Trying to learn about OFA x-rays and I see a lot of you are talking about the value of good positioning. Are you saying the OP's original x-rays are not an example of good positioning?

just trying to learn

Being older and wiser now, well older for sure, I think I washed a few dogs out due to one vet's lousy films. AND he is an orthopedist. Now I drive further but get excellent films. Live and learn.

I've had two sets returned for lack of quality of the procedure. Both done at the same time , same tech/same VET, I immediately changed Vets.

Just sent this off to OFA. Will let you know if I get a response. (Hope I adequately communicated the idea; I will be the first to say that composition in writing is not my thing.)

Hello,
I would appreciate if you would pass this email on to Dr. Keller, or the Board of OFA, or who ever makes ultimate decisions on OFA procedures.

We as breeders do not need to be radiologists to see poor positioning in some of the films being graded by OFA and NOT always being sent back to the vet for a re-do. I don't think any of us know at what point OFA determines that they are of poor enough quality to be sent back for a redo... just how bad do they have to be?? I know when I have films shot, I want proper positioning. Obviously positioning (and clarity) does factor in to the ability to most accurately grade the joint.

Some have made the suggestion that maybe only OFA certified vets/radiologists shoot fillms for OFA submission. I don't believe this is the total answer... maybe a start.

>From the OFA site re Handling and Procedures:
"The board-certified veterinary radiologist on staff at the OFA screens the radiographs for diagnostic quality. If it is not suitable for diagnostic quality (poor positioning, too light, too dark or image blurring from motion), it is returned to the referring veterinarian with a written request that it be repeated. "

Here is my suggestion, which I believe will make a difference! Since you already have a radiologist on staff who is screening the films for diagnostic quality soon as they arrive and before they are sent off to the panel of radiologists for grading... why would it not be possible to have that radiologist assign a 'grade' re quality of film (taking into account positioning and clarity of film)? Possibly have a 0 - 5 rating, with 0 being "Optimal", 1 being "Good", 3 being "Marginal", and 4 or 5 being outright poor and sent back to the vet to re-do as not useful for diagnostic use.

You would not have to post these findings in the online database, just include the rating on the report sent back to the vet and the dog's owner. It could read something such as,
"This hip joint conformation was evaluated as FAIR;
based on Marginal (3) quality of radiograph. "

This would give more info to the vet shooting the films and the owner of the dog. In such a case as the example I cited, it would allow the owner of the dog to decide if they think it's worthwhile to reshoot the films with better positioning and resubmit, possibly for getting better grade.... yes, we all personally know of instances where this has happened. It would also provide important feedback to the vet on the job he is doing re positioning and clarity of xray.

I think it will also make vets take the time to learn proper positioning when they start seeing their films are getting a rating or 3, 4 or 5 (or they will stop doing films for OFA submission). I can't emphasize enough how valuable this information would be to both vets and dog owners. I sure wouldn't prefer a grading based on Marginal quality of films, although OFA may find the xray acceptable enough.... this would give me enough information to look elsewhere for a vet to shoot my films.

I don't see where the implementation of this procedure would be costly to OFA either timewise or in clerical reporting.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Valerie Whalen

I was considering writing a letter also Val. You did a wonderful job and did relay exactly what you intended to.

I'm curious if you recieve an answer and what it is. I'm going to begin composing mine and will wait to send it until you recieve a reply, hopefully directly from Dr. Keller himself.

So people can see how much of this is true, here is the first dog's preliminary. The quality of the film is terrible. Positioning was good. She got fair.

Val, it sounds like it could help people to decide which vet to use, but it is not realistic. No one is to rate (on paper) a vet's performance.
I stick to the idea of a certification process.

Got a reply... actually at one time OFA did report on the radiograph technique and positioning.

Sorry, and not being confrontational in tone, but I don't see how it would be rating a vet's performance.... is is a rating on the quality of the film submitted. Not asking OFA to issue any kind of certificate to the vet, just a report to owner and vet on the quality of film. But lets say in essence, when OFA rejects a film they are already rating the job that vet did on shooting the films because they found them not good enough for diagnostic use.

I'll post the reply and my followup reply under a new thread.

Wow, other than the poor contrast, I would call those excellent. Is this one of the hips that later did receive an excellent rating?

Yes, it is the same dog (first x-ray), just a few month back.

Results from OFA are in and this boy received a mild - mostly because of the right hip. All three radiologists had the same result and Dr. Keller stated that he thought the positioning/quality was excellent and re-doing would offer no benefit.

This boy is being neutered.