I have an EIC carrier bitch, everything else is good to go.

I have a stud in mind who is unfortunately not been tested and won't be tested. I am trying to do a bit of a line breeding (from pretty well know lines), so I have been researching like crazy trying to find out what he might be based on what he has produced, but again, some of those dames were not tested, so you might have EIC clear get, but don't know what side it came from, which of course is still nothing for sure.

Is it rude to ask the breeders who used the stud and produced clear get what the status of the dame is and what they might think the status of the stud is?

I don't want to gossip or anything, just want some information. I know not everyone is in favor of the EIC test, but being that I did test for it, I would like to utilize this tool to the best of my ability.

Anyone else faced this issue?

the stud dog owner? Sometimes they will do the test, regardless of their personal issues with the test, if you offer to pay for it.

Can't hurt to ask, can it?

If I knew the owner of the litter, I might ask, but if not - I would just shop for a boy the is clear. I don't know how much importance to put on the totality of the test, but at this point, better safe than sorry? I know it's hard to get the perfect stud - makes it tough when you find one and you don't have a clue about his EIC state. It will all come out in the wash sooner or later.

Yes, it's unfortunate that the breeders/owners of some of the nicest stud dogs out there won't even consider testing, even though their lines (not necessarily the stud dogs, though) have collapsing dogs in them. Not sure if the thought is that EIC is BS (well, if collapsing dogs are appearing, related to their dogs...), or if they don't want to know/scared to know the status and maybe lose some business?

Bottom line - they are only hurting the breed by not doing the test, whether they want to believe it or not. I think the recent thread about the collapsing bitch has maybe brought a few more unbelievers into reality that this IS a problem, and by breeding carriers to clears, there's no EIC collapse possible.

There are plenty of nice champion boys out there, including mine, who are tested EIC clear! Just keep looking

I would find another stud. What if you sell a collapsing dog, do you plan on testing the entire litter?

It's hard passing on the stud you have your heart set on but believe me, you might find something you like better (I did). There's a lot of really nice studs out there and the LQ stud issue will be out soon.

I don't think much of a stud dog owner that won't have this test done whether they believe in the test or not. It's all a part of providing a service to those who DO believe in the test IMO.

I have 1 well bred girl from top well known lines, that that is rated Affected with No episodes. She is over 5, and never had an episode, and she has been put to the physical test, and no episodes. She has been bred in the past, and no problems with the puppies.

I talked with the EIC specialist from the Univeristy of Minnisota about this situation, and they said that it is possible that there is also a gene that PROTECTS the dogs that are rated EIC affected with no episodes ever.

Anyway, we plan to breed her only to EIC clear stud dog.

Also, it may be a good idea to get CNM clearances. That is a whole lot worse than EIC. I have 2 girls that are EIC affected with No episodes, and Thank God, they are clear on CNM.

We'll do our EIC when alot more bitch owners do Echos!
Not doing a thourough heart clearance on the bitch, but demanding evey clearance AND all this importance on this new EIC on the Studs with a EIC test that has not been proven yet? Those who think they are high and mighty because they have EIC tested just calm down and stop passing judgement on those who have good reasons on waiting and see how all these EIC results pan out, like PRA. If someone has not tested, talk to THEM personally, so you get the facts straight and not through gossip. I know for some they just have not got to it yet and no sense in rushing in with such a new test. Some of you act like it is the end all for breeding and clearances. How many of those EIC zealots have CNM tested? That is a lot worse and hardly anyone tests for it. There have been way too many EIC posts lately, have a feeling its the same person posting under several alias. JMO.

Did you not take the time to read my post from last weekend? I only started EIC testing because a company started throwing it in for free, and then I did the $20 extra test with DDC. I would have never otherwise to start. When my bitch came back affected I laughed and said the test was flawed. Total BS. I was on the bandwagon that the test is wrong. Guess what, she collapsed. It took almost a year after she was tested to find her trigger but it happened. You sound like a grade school child "We'll do our EIC when alot more bitch owners do Echos!" Listen to yourself. We are grown adults who have dedicated our lives to the preservation of this breed. I totally agree that everyone should do some sort of heart testing by a cardiologist. But I would rather advocate for any sort of heart clearance then the half of breeders that still do NO heart clearance at all.

I assure you I am a REAL poster. I feel so strongly about my experience that if you want to give me an email address, we can talk.

My bitch has every clearance I expect of a stud dog that I would consider using, including a heart cleared by echocardiogram, CNM, EIC, PRA, Hips good or better, elbows clear. Everyone has their own standards, but these are mine. It does narrow down the list for me, but there are plenty of nice boys to choose from than compliment my bitch from both a conformation and a health standpoint.

I guess I haven't bothered doing CNM on any of my dogs since I have never heard of any show-bred dogs every being affected nor in those lines. Anyone heard of affected show lines here in the US, or do you just do it because it is an available test?

Yes, it's important to know the potential issues in your bitch line and when you know they are a carrier or affected and start to search it can be frustrating.

I offer my boys and do try and make sure they are as sound /clear as possible, really upsets me when folks take $$ for stud services without investing anymore $$$ than a simple OFA hip/elbow and an AVCO eye clearance AND not requiring a DARN thing from bitch owner's
OK, off my soap box!

I personally think that people are now aware of EIC and a lot of the collapses were called heart stroke before. Its a very cheap test, so why not do it and breed accordingly. There are no guarantees when breeding ECHO Cleared parents. Until there is an actual DNA test out for heart conditions, we can only do are best to make sure the parents are clear. You are willing to pay a couple hundred into doing Echos but not $65 into an EIC test because you think its not accurate?? An Echo is only accurate to a certain point too, doesn't tell you, your dog isn't going to produce TVD, or another type of heart condition. $65 for a DNA test is pretty cheap compared to $195 to Optigen for PRA. I think EIC is more of a problem in show lines then CNM. I haven't heard of anyone having CNM carriers or affecteds, but several of us who have EIC tested found out we have carriers and affecteds. Yes, CNM is worst then EIC but why would you want to take the chance to produce EIC affecteds that could collapse. I won't breed any of my EIC carriers to anything other then EIC clears.

I just did a breeding .... the stud dog I was interested in didn't have an EIC clearance .... my bitch happenes to be clear ... but since it was a test that I was interested in ... I asked the stud dog owner what his EIC status was .... she told me that she hadn't done the test yet ... but if it was something that I was interested in ... she would be happy to get it done .... the stud dog owner decided to take the opportunuity to do all of her boys .... guess what .... every one of them came back EIC clear ... win win for both of us ....

Moral of the story ... it doesn't hurt to ask. In my case, I was working with a wonderful breeder who was extremely accomodating thru the entire breeding process ... my puppies are due in August .... we hear so many negative experiences on the forum ... I think sometimes we forget how many are actually good ... and at least in my experience there are many of us who help each other every day ... and a good portion of them aren't folks we know personally ... I have exchanged many e-mails and phone calls with breeders who I know only by name who have been very helpful thru the years .... THANKS!!!

Let me also thank the breeder who took the time to post on her bitch collapsing with EIC .... for me the post was very enlightening. As were many of the other posts in the thread.

I will add my two cents. I don't know how many times, I've had a bitch dropped off and as I take a closer look at her eye clearance, there's a problem. I find it interesting that people insist that every clearance is perfect on the stud dog, but they fail to disclose anything about their bitches. I had one breeder even fail to disclose that her bitch had a Grade One elbow. I can't believe the nerve of some people??

I agree with you that folks hold stud dogs to a higher standard than they do their bitches, however, do you really think having that grade one elbow clearance is going to make a difference in the soundness of the puppies? I've bred ofa excellents to only end up with cripples and vice versa. I think there's no rhyme or reason to any of it- it's just a tool we use to discern ourselves from the backyard breeders and one very small piece of a puzzle to look at when breeding two dogs. I think it is more important to look at the whole picture and see what strengths & weakness each side of the pedigree bring and make your own decision.

That's where you and I differ. In my opinion it's difficult enough acquiring clear elbows while breeding to clearances. We all know a hereditary factor is involved, so why rock the boat? I think that it's wrong to assume that stud dog owners should accept a Grade One Elbow as a clearance. If the information is forthcoming, the stud owner can decide. After all, we all know when problems arise, it's always his fault. To not mention anything, is sneaky.

I agree with you fed up stud dog owner. Yes its a double standard the stud needs to have every single clearance out there while the bitch's last eye cerf was 3 years ago. Have seen so many outdated cerf exams and several with no optigen testing and no heart clearance! Oh but all you studs make sure you run and get your eic clearance. Where's the logic.
I feel many of these dogs are suffering from heat stroke and it is being labeled as EIC.

Let's examine this statement with pure logic. The EIC test is proven to identify the gene mutation that can result in collapse. People who want to avoid the probability that their offspring will collapse want to select matings where this mutation can not gather two copies. By contrast, an echo heart clearance does not identify the gene(s) that produce TVD. Dogs with echo clerances can still produce the problem.

If you really want to help make the gene pool healthier, both tests are important. However, a DNA test that clearly identifies a target mutation is 100% more useful than a phenotype test that only offers limited preventive assurance. Logically, getting the DNA tests, which are relatively inexpensive compared to many of the phenotype tests, is the best way to protect the breed. Phenotype tests (hips, elbows, heart, etc.) are important predictive tools, but not as definitive as DNA tests.

Refusing to invest $60 in a DNA test because a bitch owner has not invested $200 (or more) in an inconclusive phenotype test certainly seems illogical - and petty.

Really? I think many of the collapses over the years that were disregarded as heat stroke or focal seizures are actually EIC. Without testing, we will never know for sure

Very logical and well said. Thanks for posting!

I agree. It really sums it up. We are comparing a DNA test that definitely tells us what is in the genes and can be passed on to progeny with a phenotypic test that only tells us the condition of that particular dog and is much more expensive. Of course it still has value, just as hip and elbow clearances have value. I have had my young stock echoed and am grateful to WLRC and the people who held a nicely run clinic that allowed me to do it for a reasonable price.

I would also like to hear from anyone who knows of a show bred lab that is a carrier or affected for CMN. The coordinator of testing for Alfort says that there are some, but I personally have never heard of one and therefore have not tested for that. The nature of the disease is such that it seems to me that, unlike EIC, if it were in your lines you would know it. There is variable expressivity, but it is my understanding that the disease is completely penetrant and impossible to overlook.

Not to diverge on another topic, but we also have to believe that our counterparts are weighing their options with their dogs. And in the instance of the bitch owner with 1 Grade One elbow (BTW- I have heard that hereditary elbow issues tend to be bilateral while one elbow can be injury-related...not cast in stone, but just a thought) she may have a very sound pedigree behind her dog and this is the ONLY dog that has ever come up with an issue, and if breeding to a dog that has a sound pedigree too is something they want to do, that's THEIR perogative. In the end, they may beat the very slim odds that any puppy will have an elbow issue anyway AND also merge two lines of dogs that produce a wonderfully sound litter of puppies with the right type and temperament.

And besides, it sounds like you are more upset to find out AFTER the fact...shouldn't you have asked better questions before you agreed to the deal. If every clearance must be passed to YOUR specification (and I am not saying that as a Stud owner it isn't your right to set your own rules, it definately is), maybe that should have been checked before you agreed.

In any case, tool are tools. We are lucky to have the advances of science to help us these days, but when I think back to the golden days of breeding when bare minimum genetic testing was available, if at all, we still were able to produce sound puppies that didn't collapse in the heat, didn't drop over due to heart failure and didn't limp their entire lives due to hip/elbow problems. Sometimes the merging of two pedigrees based on type and past apparent soundness of the familial dogs might be a good idea. We don't want to produce crippled dogs, but I certainly don't want to sacrifice type and improvement in certain areas just because of one test.

bdr - you obviously don't own stud dogs. Bitch owners will give you every excuse why they can't find their clearances, or why they haven't had time to do an annual eye cerf. I can name all the excuses in a book. What I've also found is that they're the first ones to point fingers at other breeders and their dogs.
No, I did not breed the bitch with a Grade One elbow. I asked questions and that's when it was eventually revealed. I've done my research and I was well aware of the elbow issues in the line which is why I turned her away. Maybe the bitch owner should have done her research a little better??
BTW, unilateral elbow dysplasia is still considered hereditary just as much as unilateral hip dysplasia.

I am reposting this from another thread because I think it is relevant to the discussion. We have lots of tools available to us today and while there is no obligation to use them, it can be useful for the future.

"I just sent in swabs to test a dog for EIC, CNM, DM and Cystinuria. The last two are not common problems, but have been identified in Labradors. I am planning to freeze semen and figured I would just have the dog tested for everything currently available. It may be important when I use the semen years from now."

If all breeding Labradors were screened with all the available DNA tests, then we could identify potential FUTURE problems from these genes. Even though some of these disorders are not currently common in the breed, they do exist and can easily be tested for TODAY.

Let's not wait until we have a lot of kidney failure before testing for cystinuria or discover older dogs are crippled with DM when it could have been identified early. The tests are in place. Have a genuine concern for the future of the breed and use them. The total cost for getting all four screening tests was $108. That's less than an x-ray in most areas!

As my dear friend (Heart-Broken Mom) remarked earlier in this thread both of us were very doubtful about the EIC testing but on the same token wanted our Dogs/Bitches done for the sake of having them done and then using it as a Breeding tool for the Future. This Bitch that collapsed on Sunday has run in Winter, Spring, Summer, and Fall for almost 2 years now doing Obedience Work, Conformation Shows, and just plain playing and running about in the sun and pool without incident. But on Sunday in a mere 15 minutes all of that changed and truly changed my life when I was watching her drop to her belly, then roll over, tongue out, and yelping and crying for help... it is a sound that will forever stick with me.

And for those of you that think it is a mistake between "heat stroke vs EIC" or vice versa there is a clear (Fool-proof) method between the two and that is the bloodwork done at the time of collapse. A collapse from a true Heat Stroke has an elevated CK Muscle enzyme level, while a dog collapsing from a EIC Collapse has no increase in the CK values and actually shows normal blood-work through the entire ordeal. Our girl actually continued with normal bloodwork through discharge 36 hours later.

This above data is supported by University of Minn website and is available here http://www.vdl.umn.edu/ourservices/canineneuromuscular/eic/taylor2008/home.html#heat

We decide as breeders what breedings we wish to do and then hope everything turns out. I can say with confidence that 99% of us never run on an entire litter and atleast 50% of every litter we produce is placed in loving Pet Homes. Just as we would take back a pup that needed to be placed or could no longer be cared for ... don't we owe it to those Pet Homes (as well as our show prospects) to produce the soundest pups possible so they all have the fullest life.

I would say at the least read thoroughly the Univ of Minn website and email Katie Miner with any questions you may have. My BFF and I hope you don't have to go through what we went through to become a believer...

I also became a believer (former EIC skeptic) when some of my dogs came back as carriers, some of the studs I had used over the years did too, and several pet puppies from those litter had experienced collapses, generally attributed to heat stroke for lack of any other explanation, but no one was ever convinced. Now I'm quite sure that EIC is present in my lines, it's real, and I'll do what I need to do to breed my carrier girls to clear boys so as not to produce affecteds.

I know of one dog that came back a Carrier for CNM from Alfort test. Took the owners by complete surprise and after testing the intact offspring and finding all to be clear, they breathed a sigh of relief and neutered him.

re: Echos. The 2 cardiologists we've brought in for our heart clinics both told me they don't push for echo unless they hear something amiss in the ascultation -- or if the dog is going to be bred a lot.

I have to say my experience with bitch owners seems to be different, they are great. My dogs all have their clearances and I ask the same of all bitches bred to my dogs. If a bitch owner doesnt have a specific clearance and wants to use my dog, I just explain why I want it (equality for both sexes LOL) and it's never a big deal. I've also noticed a trend change with respect to EIC. Most of the bitch owners that are using my dogs (and I do quite a bit of stud service) all have EIC clearances. Echo-Doppler clearance, different story. As a stud dog owner, I thank the bitch owners, I think you all are stepping up to the plate just as you have asked stud dog owners to do. I think Echo-Doppler for both dog and bitch still is lacking. EIC is changing. JMO

This has gone a little left of my original topic, as I feared it would. I just wanted to see if there was any other avenues I hadn’t explored yet in my research. And this is my first posting of the EIC subject as well.

I have thought about asking the stud owner if he will do the testing if I pay for it. I may still do that, but I don't think it will do any good. I am still waiting on heart & CERF clearances which are suppose to be done. I have a feeling this stud maybe a lost cause and time to move on to another. You can’t fit a square peg into a round hole.

While I can only speak for myself, as far as studs being held to a higher standard than bitches, those are not my beliefs. I hold my own dogs to a high standard and desire likewise in a stud. My girl has Good Hips, Clear Elbows, current CERFs every year, PRA Clear, EIC Carrier, and Heart Cleared by auscultation (Doppler scheduled). I will look into CNM as that doesn't seem to be widley tested for yet. Being that I have invested the time, money, and emotions into her, I want a stud of equal caliber. I would be more than happy to provide all certificates on my bitch to a potential stud dog owner. If I was the stud dog owner, I would want to see them before I agreed to the breeding, so I am prepared to do the same.

My standards are not everyone’s, so we just have to make the best of things and do what feels right. My hope is in the end, I produce healthy, happy dogs true to the Labrador breed.

I require that the bitch have the same clearances as my stud dogs too and its usually not an issue. I don't ship any semen until I have proof of all clearances (and payment). I respect breeders decision to wait on EIC, it is a fairly new test every one has to admit and there is nothing wrong with waiting a bit to see how this all shakes out. It is not a matter of money at all, if a stud dog owner will pay hundreds for a echo-doppler, than a $60 test is nothing. Waiting to test has nothing to do with cost or money.

Hearing more and more of dogs that collapse. Not one or two but alot more local. More concern now. If the person does not want to test her Stud. GO FIND ANOTHER ONE WHO DOES. To many are happy to test and most are getting on board. I'am testing my girls. I want to know. We need to know where we are headed with all this. Lots test and if you don't ask they will NOT tell you they are carriers. So if it looks like they are not tested you better ask. I do appreciate the stud dog owners for going the extra mile and think they have always had to do this. I do all I can on my boys and don't mind. One stud fee will more than pay for it all.

What are you waiting for??? There are no plans to change the test. If you are a stud dog owner you are potentially losing stud fees from those who do care. What do you have to lose? $60?

Let me throw another twist in the mix here. I have a friend who's male tested as an EIC carrier. However, six months after the test -- he showed symptoms through a collapse followed by bloodwork. Yep, EIC.

Now, this is not a third party story. The Breeder/Owner of the dog told me this in person, sitting at my kitchen table. I've asked her for more information regarding carriers showing symptoms, but I only sent the email about 5 minutes ago. I'll let you know what she says. (By the way, this is a pet breeder and should not affect one single line of anybody reading this forum, as I have seen the pedigree).

Was this dog's test conducted at the U of Minn? They should be notified of this, if so. Maybe even if it wan't done at their lab, they may want to do follow up.

You would think. They won't and never have from the information I have about carriers collapsing. As someone said, the test is not changing and that's what I was told when I spoke to them. They have no intention of any additional testing. They said their job is done.

So, given that information, I tested everyone with DDC. All were clears.

If you notice, most of the Univ. of Minn. heavier conversations to date are done slated toward field lab boards. I wish they would give us a percentage of what percentage of carriers and affected are field or conformation or field labradors. I think many would be surprised that the majority of especially affecteds are supposedly field or part field labradors.

Remember, this board is not only conformation labradors and with anonymity there is no way of knowing if someone has field or breed dogs. Some things to think about.

Given that, I still tested but also do echo dopplers on all breeding dogs. Looking for a stud dog today, I have a hard time finding many *WITH* echo dopplers and some without EIC testing. With all clears, I don't have to worry but if I'm doing testing with some reservation about the test with bitches, then why aren't stud dogs tested?

Well I show in conformation and my gal is from purely conformation lines, heavily used ones to be more specific without starting a witch hunt. So no, EIC is not just a field line issue.

Once again, to the breeder who wrote in about the EIC carrier that collapsed, there are several explanations for collapse in a dog. just because a dog collapses doesn't mean the collapse was caused by EIC.