I have been checking out breeder websites to get ideas for my purchase agreement and guarantee on puppies. I have come across a few that say their HD guarantee is null and void if the Penn-hip procedure has been used on the dog at any time. Why would a breeder include this in their contract? Is there a down side to using Penn-hip?

TIA

I imagine that some breeders don't like the evaluation because often their dogs don't do as well as OFA evaluations. But what kind of guarantee are you saying is being offered?

Over the last half-century, there have been many "stress" or "fulcrum" methods used for hip radiographs. Some apply more pressure than others and since all are performed by humans, the pressure varies from one radiologist to another as well. There have been some serious complaints about cavitation of the hip joint during PennHIP procedures. Some breeders feel this is potentially damaging to the joint. I suspect this is the reason that some breeders - especially those who might have had a bad experience with possible injury in the past - would not guarantee hips that have been subjected to the PennHIP procedure.

Cavitation is not a big deal. Cavitation occurs when people crack their knuckles. You know people who crack their knuckles thousands and thousands of times.

My guess would be that the breeder, knowing that PennHIP is a lot more fussy than OFA, does not want the puppy buyer to get PennHIP and then put up a stink when the results are not stellar.

I wonder, if at some time, the breeder told a puppy buyer the parents had wonderful hips so the pup would too, only to have the buyer PennHIP the pup and get poor results. This sounds like the old "shoot the messenger" ploy to me. Make PennHIP out to be the bad guy.

Remember, PennHIP recommends that only those in the top half be bred. Dogs with PennHIP scores in the 30th percentile usually pass, most often with OFA Goods.

You are entitled to think what you want, but I did present the facts as they have been relayed to me. Several Golden breeders were involved a few years back in a law suit against a PennHIP vet for damage to their dogs during the procedure. This is not conjecture, just the facts.

By contrast, your conjecture about breeders trying to "scam" people by misrepresenting their dogs is purely a product of your imagination. It must be sad to have such a low opinion of everyone else in our hobby.

Perhaps you can share with us the results of that law suit.

Not only has PennHIP continued to use the same procedure but PennHIP has become increasingly popular, especially with service dog organizations, research groups trying to identify hip dysplasia genes, and orthopedic vets.

All I have to go on is my own experience with PennHIP. I took in my bitch who had never limped a day in her life, and when I went back to pick her up she limped out of the office and continued to limp for a WEEK! Nope, no PennHIP for me thanks.

I use one of the top ortho's in my city and have for years. He does all my OFA films. I visited with him one time about PennHip(he does them) and if he thought I should be doing that too. His statement to me was that I didn't have a problem with hips in my dogs that it wasn't necessary for me to do so. He goes on to say that Pennhip is for those programs who have a problem.

Problem? I have a problem. I don't like to wait 2 years to see if hips are OK or not.

It is amazing how transparent you are like a wolf in sheep's clothing. So you use a new name but you still speak down to other breeders in the same manner as you did with your real name.

A decade or more ago I started using PennHIP with a dog who had hips in the top 20% of Labs. And now my dogs have even better hips--and they aren't limping before or after the procedure. In fact, they aren't even limping at 13 years old.

It is amazing how transparent you are like a wolf in sheep's clothing. So you use a new name but you still speak down to other breeders in the same manner as you did with your real name.

And this has what to do with the discussion??

I agree... in other countries you can get hip and elbow results after your dog reaches 12 months of age.

You can get 12 month results on your dog in this country also - it is called a preliminary reading
Those in other countries that evaluate at 12 months are breeding dogs based on essentially "prelim" opinions that may change by the time the dog is 2. I have seen many dogs that change between prelims and finals in the past. I'd rather wait, but be fairly sure I get an accurate result.

Whether you use PH or OFA (or one of the foreign schemes), if you wait until the dog is mature, the evaluation is more conclusive.

Which is why many of us have switched to PennHIP. They contend that the result they obtain at 16 - 20 weeks is good for the life of the dog. When they have re-xrayed later, the results only got better.

I would like to see those results. I only know of two people who redid PH x-rays. The adult scores in each case were not even close to the early ones. In some worse, in some better.

Also consider the implication if your statement is true. If the hips are better when the dogs are older, then you have to wonder how many youngsters are removed from breeding consideration due to early PH results that are worse than an adult evaluation.

No matter how you look at it, the best practice is to evaluate adults, not puppies, regardless of what system you use.

I'm still waiting to hear the results of a suit brought against PennHIP.

I've heard that even when the dog is x-rayed as young as 9 months old... most of the time the results wont change after that...that is if everything is normal. So I know that many many breeders abroad do hip and elbow x-ray at one year old and they have excellent results with their breeding stuck. You might think that when x-raying that early and breeding from those dogs would bring bad hips... as like you said... they might change.... I don't personally think they will change that much after one or one and a half year of age... but that's just me

Just saying .. we have used Penn hip for 12 years and have never had any problems with damage to hips. It's a good tool in making breeding decisions. Nothing is fail proof. No one shoud ever be told that parents having good hips guarentees that pups will too.

While it is true that nothing is fail proof, if your both the sire and dam have DIs tighter .3, it is highly unlikely that the offspring will develop hip dysplasia. In breeds in which the DI is nearly always below .3 (e.g., greyhounds, borzoi), hip dysplasia is quite uncommon.