I have been looking for a stud dog whose conformation, pedigree and health clearances I like. Yes, my girls have the same as what I am looking for.

I keep hitting a brick wall. I find 1, then sometimes 2. I get to 3, the health clearances and darn it, no echocardiogram. I move on. I will not ask a stud dog owner to do an echo, it's their choice.

Do stud dog owners realize they are losing breedings because they don't have an echo on their nice stud dog?

Have you contacted the stud owners that you have in mind? I am sure that they just have not had the cycles to perform the testings that you require for your girl's mate. And if you possibly offer to help them fund the testing - that they will work with you.

Dont assume the worst of people until you are in direct contact with them. And dont trust everything you see on the internet either - it could simply be a) an error b) not updated c) not done because of personal reasons.

Good luck in your search!

The way I look at it is that NOT everyone who has a boy cares if anyone uses him or not. They might not have been able to get an echo yet due to when/where clinics are, their expenses etc. Doesn't mean they should NOT put him up on a website just because he's missing a clearance. We still don't know exactly how it's passed, and if a bitch owner looks at a boy and has a passing echo on her bitch and finds this boy to have everything she needs except the echo, doesn't mean he can't be used. It's YOUR preference not to, but doesn't mean he'd be ruled out by someone else who might be looking for more of a package deal than breeding to a list of "PASSED" clearances.

I am not saying to not stick to your standards, but it's no reflection on someone else if they feel comfortable using a dog who doesn't have an echo yet, if their bitch is OK and other factors are in place.

Stud service in such a popular breed is a "buyer's market". If the owner wants you to help "fund" the appropriate testing on a potential stud, then you would be better off spending your money with someone who cares enough about the breed to test on their own. Doing business with people who don't share your vision of breeding is frustrating and can even set you back in your own program.

As a stud owner myslef I really don't care if someone uses my stud dogs or not. I didn't keep them for that reason. I don't do echocardigrams because I don't feel I need to. If that keeps bitch owners from using my boys then that is fine by me. Its nothing personal its just the way I operate and I am comfortable with that.

I have a Ch. stud dog, with echo and I don't care if anyone using him or not, it's their loss! Just because we have a lovely boy does not mean we want every newbie that breeds purely on clearances ringing our phone ! Go away newbies, you make me tired. Clearances are not disqualifications they are TOOLS.

I think that is sort of what the OP meant. If the dogs have not been evaluated (whether clear or not), then that is a shortage of TOOLS for making good choices.

Everyone has different ideas and priorities in breeding. You just have to tend your own garden, but you can be selective about what seeds you care to plant in it

I agree!!!!!!!
there are those mostly newbies that breed to every known clearance to man, and only that , have no idea about pedigrees, linebreeding etc.
i might add that we too have Ch stud dogs and they do have echos
do i care if anyone uses them ? no. they are here part of my plan or i wouldnt have kept them in the first place LOL

Just because it isn't on their web site or in the OFA web site doesn't mean that the boy doesn't have one. I have had this happen ....Always contact the stud dog owner ... just may mean they are flat out busy and haven't had time to update their web site or send it in to OFA. If you don't see a clearance you would like .... ask ... he might be scheduled for a clinic next week ... or might move up a scheduled one to an earlier date if they know it is something a bitch owner is interested in. All of which could be in plenty of time for your bitch ... or maybe would make him a good choice for your next breeding with her.

I'm not a newbie, far from it and you might know me quite well. I might know you also.

I choose to only breed to boys that have an echo. As it is the stud dog owner's choice to have *OR* not have one, it is my choice not to use a stud dog without an echo and to echo my girls and 1 boy.

I don't want to look for health problems that *might* be avoided. After hearing about dogs with clear auscultations that later don't pass echo cardiograms it makes me believe even more it's the right way to go, for *me*.

I never expected a reply like this but then again, at times on this board, I should expect it.

I'm not going to duke it out over echo's. When and if we have the mode of transmission and a test, lets see how effective echo's have been. If it gives me a 20% less chance of TVD in my litters, I'm happy. I choose to use the echo *tool* on both sides of a breeding.

It is true it is the newbies with the highest expectations who think they will get perfection. I had a newbie potential puppy buyer who would only buy a puppy from me if I paid to have an echo done on the puppy at 8 weeks from a cardiologist. If the puppy passed, fine they would buy it and not pay for or part of the echo test. If the puppy did not pass the echo, they did not want the puppy and they still would not pay anything for the echo. I said no deal see ya!!!!

Sorry to get off topic, I just needed to share.

I would say see ya also and have to different pushy people. My pups don't go to just any home and they're mine until they leave. I do not co-own, it's not something I want to do.

In your story, it sounds like a little bit of knowlege is dangerous sometimes.

That isn't a newbie breeder, that's a pet buyer. I am neither. It looks like this drifted off topic so I'll discuss it with breeder friends that I know have had TVD affected pups whose parents did not have echo's. It's funny, there's a few common denominators in those lines.

Thank You Susan. That is ExACTLY what I said haha.

Actually, that isn't exactly what you said. You suggested that the bitch owner might help pay for the testing if they are interested in the dog. That is not at all the intent of Susan's post.

I agree with Susan that it is important to talk to a potential stud owner even if the dog has not had the testing you require. You never know what else you might discover - good or bad!

"Dont assume the worst of people until you are in direct contact with them. And dont trust everything you see on the internet either - it could simply be a) an error b) not updated c) not done because of personal reasons."

Contact the Stud Owner....

Thank you Oldtimer, I will take yours and Susan's advice. I normally always email 1st and ask if there is a good time to phone. I don't call unless the stud dog owner invites me to. I do the same, my website states to email or call during certain hours and my time zone. I've had breeders call after 11 at night regarding my boy. I figured the written message about hours would stop that. My husband wakes at 4 in the morning for work and I'm up feeding the dogs at 6 so I can lake swim them by 9. People, breeders or puppy buyers can be inconsiderate. I try not to be.

Read this post and ask yourselves why did this person post this? A rant? Expressing frustration or to stir up a nice juicy controversial thread - hence the last line.

Odd, maybe there are stud dogs with the clearances she seems to deman, but since she is too righteous she might never find out since she does not speak to the Stud Dog Owner - hmmmmmm.

Yes, clearances are TOOLS. However, if clearances are lacking, we no longer have tools - we operating blind. The more info we have, the better decisions we make. I do not know of anyone who breeds solely on clearances, but clearances will narrow down the short list.

But I also agree that if a dog is not being held out at stud, there is no reason to expect him to have clearances.

What is wrong with you? I asked a question and of course anything on here is conversational.

I never said I don't speak to the stud dog owner, I said I ask *when* a good time to call would be in email. Now what do you find wrong with that? Is it unusual to have manners? I don't demand anything. If the stud dog doesn't have an echo cardiogram, I won't use the stud dog. That's my right.

It sounds to me like you're done with the Kitty thread and knocking a dog show so now you're going to try to make me the new victim? I don't think so. Try someone else or better, don't do it to anyone.

I asked nothing wrong and I'm not going to sit and argue with you. You sound like a paranoid person. Find someone else to try to point your finger at.

Okay we are getting off. Getting silly. I do wish the stud owners would just put it on the web page. Don't like the games. Alot put it on page and it makes it so easy and answers the questions. Its not always in the stud dogs favor but we admire the owner for the facts. Echo's are fine but will look at the entire pedigree anyway. I do agree some breed to the latest winner. Or the best looking clearances.
You can breed your program right out of nice dogs. Find the right dogs and then decide.