Nice issue of LQ. Alot of yellows if someone is looking for that. Noticed alot have tested the stud dogs for EIC and that is good. More females also being tested. Think it is just a larger problem than we knew and good to get on top of it. My testing showed some clear and some carriers. Now I can work around it hopefully. Will testing these dogs ever end or is that okay !

Think it is not a bigger problem then ever before, just now many are pressuring others to do the test.
It's like mass hysteria.
Take a moment and reflect on your time in the breed. How many dogs have you seen collapse?

It is exactly that, mass hysteria by the younger crowd, and I am so flippin' bored with the subject I wish all of you "sky is falling" types would exchange emails and talk amongst yourself !

Younger no, breeding for 30 years yes, call it what you may am testing. I never saw a PRA dog till I purchased one. Blind is not fun and a collapsing dog would not be. If you are tired of it just don't read about it. Leave us hysterical young ones alone. But you had to notice many of the very well known breeders old or young, with these dogs, are testing

Thank you for your sane words. I had to change an ideal pedigree match for my bitch due to the EIC test and while I know I will sleep better knowing no one will be throwing stones at me for breeding carrier/carrier, I wonder what the pups might have been with the excellent match in pedigrees. I just couldn't risk having keepers be Affected and I wasn't going to test every puppy either.

Wake up, folks. Young breeders, old breeders, doesn't matter. There are POPULAR stud dogs out there who are carriers. When we start breeding their offspring, we will ultimately breed carriers to carriers for affected dogs. It's a domino. Some of us thought, well no problem, EIC is in Field Lines only. Well, you may be surprised!

"Wake up, folks. Young breeders, old breeders, doesn't matter. There are POPULAR stud dogs out there who are carriers. When we start breeding their offspring, we will ultimately breed carriers to carriers for affected dogs."

So this is a brand new condition? If so where did our current popular stud dogs get the gene from? Past generations of course.

Haven't we always been breeding carriers to carriers and carriers to affected, etc?

This is a new test not a new gene. We've been breeding "indescrimenately" for many decades yet I've never seen a dog collapse either.

Maybe you've never seen one collapse because you are lucky enough to be using lines that don't carry it. I am hearing that breeders who use popular well used lines that produce beautiful typey dogs are the ones who are seeing carriers and affecteds (non-collapsing for the most part), more so than unknown bloodlines and breeders who do complete outcrossing constantly in their programs.....

I believe it wasn't talked about and was kept 'hush hush' if your show bred dog collapsed - it was thought to be epilepsy, just like in the field dogs, were it was seen more because those dogs are worked more and trained at a higher level of excitement, in weather conditions that are condusive to EIC collapse apparently.

Another reason it may not have been seen more in past years is because we had no way to breed to far away dogs; you tended more to stay within your own region where dogs were accessible. Now the whole world is accessible for semen shipping, and bloodlines are getting around. There can't be any more 'hidden pockets' of kennels with affecteds and carriers; the word is out, the test is out, and because we've all become global breeders we need to be aware.

If you've never seen a dog collapse from EIC, maybe you don't get to field events much, or to larger kennel operations where there are lots of dogs at high levels of excitement and training excitement. Maybe you've just never seen the right kind of trigger for an affected dog.

I've seen it, it's real, and testing for it never killed anybody. If you test and find your dog is affected but doesn't collapse, be grateful. Tell people your stud is sterile or whatever makes you comfortable, but please don't just say you don't believe in the test and breed him blindly. Same goes for your bitches; breed appropriately and you'll never see a collapse.

My own bitch... and that was enough for me!

think what you want... and one day when your dog collapses due to your ignorance (as I also was at one time) you will learn...

Are you saying you should not breed an Affected dog? Not even to a Clear?

Not sure who this was directed to, but post finals there is no reason not to breed my bitch to an EIC clear male

You can breed an Affected to a Clear and NONE of the puppies will be affected. They will be CARRIERS. If you are going to use this tool, then use it as such and use it intelligently.

I think what they meant was they did not want to produce an affected dog.

If you do, you'll end up with all carriers, which isn't such a bad thing if everything else is going for the dog. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater...just make informed decisions.

I just heard of a breeder who Bred Clear to Affective and all puppies from the litter came back clear? Yes, CLEAR! I hope she informs the appropriate people may be this will push them to look closer at their research phase.

I've heard rumors of this happening but no first hand knowledge..have you actually heard this directly from that breeder? If so, where was the testing done? If it was done by the U of Minn, I'm pretty sure they would be pursuing further research. If any or all of the tests were done by another testing lab, frankly I would be suspicious of the results. Tell you what, if you hear first hand from that breeder that this happened, come back to the forum with that information and if the tests were done by another lab, I bet that many of us with affected dogs would chip in to get them retested by U of Minn so they could confirm or dispute the findings.

Yes, I would say come back with the first hand information, your name, so we can varify, the pedigrees so we can check them out and what age they checked the pups. It was affected and not carrier ? I would hate for someone to just be saying this to bring question to the testing. That would cruel. But we can all do what we feel good about and can live with.

Just a few questions for a reality check to separate the myth from the science.

1. If you knew you bred a clear to an affected, why would you invest the money to test ALL (or any) of the puppies? Would you? Any of you?

2. If by chance someone did test a dog from that litter for no apparent reason and it came back clear, wouldn't you do a DNA parentage check on that dog FIRST before testing any more of the siblings for EIC?

These tales that are meant to shock and scare us are completely illogical. Nobody is going to spend $85 each to test a litter of puppies when they know the entire litter is genetically programmed to be carriers. Just apply a little common sense to the whole tale.

If true, this does not speak to the integrity of the test itself, but to the procedures that were done for that particular testing, because the DNA test is what it is. All the questions concerning EIC are about about the relationship between the genotype and the phenotype, not the testing procedure and the particular mutation U Minn are testing for.

I would be looking at the parentage of the litter, the lab doing the testing, and the proper identification of samples. Certainly the supposed affected parent should be retested. And the term affected is used in two ways. Was this a dog that was tested E/E genetically, or is it a dog that has collapsed and has not been tested? There have been instances of the PRA test giving Impossible results, too. Last time this was discussed on the forum, I seem to remember that someone posted that they had been checked and were all instances of mis-breedings. The father wasn't who they thought he was. So that would be the first thing to check.

A few years ago, I unknowingly bred a carrier to a carrier and produced an affected dog who does collapse. You see it happen one horrible time and that convinced me to have everyone tested. Consider yourself lucky if you have an affected that doesn't collapse.

I have never seen an animal with rabies.

I have never produced a dog with hip dysplasia.

I have never produced a dog with PRA.

I have never known anyone who has killed someone while drunk driving.

I have never known anyone personally who has died of lung cancer.

I have never known anyone who has drowned.

I have never known anyone who has shot someone else when hunting.

I have never been in a house that was burning.

However, I am very careful regarding all of the above.

I do have a dog who has collapsed due to EIC. I did not make sure both of her parents were tested because I had never seen a dog affected by EIC before.

Duh!

Why do you think it's only the younger crowd boring you *breeder*? I've had words with older breeders because I don't believe the EIC test is complete. I've tested my dogs for EIC just because I gave in but more importantly, I've also tested my dogs by echo color doppler. When that test is mentioned on here some of you *breeders* especially stud dog owners, get your panties in twist too.

So email, instant message or ring the phone amongst *yourselves* how you're not getting as much stud service as you used to. Tell your friends how you think it's the economy when you don't have echo heart clearances on your stud dogs. I don't care who chit chats to who about what. If you want to know it all, check Facebook.

Say you don't care if anyone breeds to your stud dog but some of you breed to BYB's and PM's girls for a stud fee, it's on their websites or they're lying! My opinion why *some* of you don't do an echo follows.

How about dogs that pass auscultation and do not pass echo dopplers? I wouldn't trust an auscultation rating from anyone I'm not close to after seeing right on here that some will put up the passing auscultation rating on OFA & their site when their dog failed an echo and was rated an equivocal on the 2nd opinion.

I'm not young, I'm not new and I'm not stupid. Statements like these even by 1 breeder can cause a lack of trust for breeders young, old or middle aged. Now do you blame only the younger people? I think they're trying to learn and got caught up in a test that's inexpensive, any rating can be bred to with the correctly rated stud dog and it's easy to do and the rating can't be lied about.

Now, do you get why you're so bored with these breeders that are not all young or new?

Amen! I find it very hard to understand why some people have such a negative attitude toward a test that can only help improve the health of our wonderful dogs. Ignorance is not bliss! Just because you won't test your labs for EIC does not mean there's a very real possibility you could have it in your lines.
Think about this. As more people do test, pedigrees will be scrutinized, and those pedigrees just may have your lines in them. Isn't it better to bite the bullet and find out yourself what is or is not in your lines?

Thats what I did, glad I did test. Had no idea but some clear, some carriers. Tested old, tested young and breeding girls. Now we can proceed carefully. It is closer than some think. Hope they don't see one collapse, hope I never do. Test or don't.

SO SO SO tired of reading the mass hysteria of the EIC on this board. Would sure like to see a lot more mass hysteria for regular basic clearances!

Hysteria for regular basic clearances? Guess you shoulda been around when we all began doing hips to start with - the next biggie was elbows, and lots of people poo-pooed them too.....then the PRA test came out - HooBoy! Shoulda heard the roar over THAT one. And screening for TVD? Still controversial. And with all the epilileptic dogs we know are out there, they still are having trouble getting enough samples for research. Talk about denial and complacency, you don't want to hear about that, either?

Some people just resist change - it's a scarey thing for some. And some people don't want to hear anything that they percieve as negative; they don't get that these screening tests are tools, not end-all-be-all.

People shouldn't view testing as fault-finding. It's just a means to breeding an improved, healthier Labrador breed. So calm down and don't be negative; if you don't like it, put your fingers in your ears, hum to yourself, and keep your eyes closed. The rest of us will utilize all the methods at our means to do right by our dogs.

I heard there is a good video on EIC dogs going down. Maybe you should ask for that link and become more interested in checking out your dogs before you see it in your own back yard. And lets hope not. But it seems your eyes are closed. Sad to not except change.

I have noticed that the people who for whatever reasons don't "believe" in the EIC test seem to use the word hysteria a lot. I then read all the other posts and see a calm, reasoned discussion.

If you don't want to do the darn test, don't do it. I just can't use your stud dogs....which stinks.

For those who are constantly pushing this test how about you not be so judgemental to those who are choosing to wait to see how these early "results" pan out.

What are we supposed to do in the meantime as we discover after having used them that more and more popular studs are carriers? (And I'm not letting bitch owners off the hook either. It takes two to tango.) I mean discover the hard way by having our precious Labradors born carriers and even affecteds?
Wake up people! EIC is out there, and so is a tool (popular word on this forum) to breed around it and maybe even eliminate it in the future.

It sure does take two to tango! Be sure to speak with the stud owner for any questions you may have. You cannot trust the intentions of anyone other than the actual stud owner and no one should be speaking on their behalf. Talk directly to the stud or bitch owner for any information on clearances you may have.

Am the Breeder too, alot, but not this time. Why not elimenate it ? Haven't we done a good job with PRA ?
And if you are not testing how do you know what you are producing ? You have no right to call anyone a Pollyanna. They are coming out of the dark, you are still hiding there. I am so tired of hearing don't throw the baby out with the wash to COVER UP THINGS. For pete sakes, lets throw some out and breed healthier dogs. This is bigger than we think and we all need to at least, start working on it. There is heartbreak in it for breeders and puppy familys. Get real.

"See here is the problem! Being a carrier is NOT being affected and it doesn't cause the dog pain, discomfort, or collapse. The goal is NOT to freek'n ELIMINATE it!!!! The goal is to use a tool wisely and breed without producing an AFFECTED. WAKE up rookie and educate yourself to genetics. You do not breed genes in and out of a population without removing other genes and traits as well that could be POSITIVE. It just isn't that simple Pollyanna."[/quote]

I am aware of the fact that a carrier is not an affected. Why wouldn't you want to eventually eliminate EIC? I know it wouldn't happen immediately, but simple genetics tells me that if I breed carefully and avoid breeding carriers to carriers or affecteds, and affecteds to affecteds, that each litter will produce at least some clears. Surely, some of those clears will be keepers for my breeding program, and eventually, I won't have EIC in my lines.
I would never automatically eliminate a nice carrier stud or bitch from breeding. That would be as short-sighted as eliminating breeding prospects simply because they're Optigen Bs.

We have not eliminated PRA - we control PRA - just like we can control EIC. I hope that in the future, we find out what other element involved, causes collapse in some and not others, even though they may both be "affected".

Making the gene pool smaller will not help the breed.

Who is talking no carriers, that would be crazy, no rookie here. But not tested, to not tested is just adding to the pool of could be affected. I have two carriers, they are going no where. Duh ! What are YOU afraid of. We will have generations of working with it like PRA. But the sooner the better. Not posting stud dog carriers is not helping any of us. We are clearing our females so we can go to a carrier that fits our breeding program. You really seem to take this all personal.

EIC testing is a tool, one of many. Use it or don't--your dogs, your choice. (Non-Rookie)
As an experienced, responsible breeder, I'm sure you will deal with whatever the consequences of your choices in an honest and open manner. (Pollyanna)

For those who are constantly putting this test down, how about you not be so judgemental to those who are choosing to be proactive and use these early results to keep from ending up in the frying pan or the fire!

Early adopters usually choose to err on the side of caution when it comes to their pups. They use new testing when it becomes available to avoid producing genetically "affected" pups. They are future oriented.

Late adopters generally err on the side of caution when it comes to their breeding stock. They delay using genetic testing in order to preserve all their choices in breeding. They are often focused in the past - doing things as they have "always been done" to maintain and honor traditions.

We are all waiting to evaluate the long-term impact of this and other gene tests. The difference is where we place our concern and emphasis in the meantime. As a group, we are a bit like the god Janus - some looking forward and some looking back. We are in a time of transition and both sides need to not let the differences become personal.

Well it all depends on what you mean by eliminate it, and btw we will never completely eliminate it, that just isn't how genetics work especially as it appears that EIC has moderating factors. If by eliminate it you mean tossing out all your dogs that are carriers or affecteds that is just plan ignorant. If you think eliminate it means just never breeding two dogs together that could produce it, that is sound practice. Now of course this all depends on what actually causes a dog to collapse and what other issues come into play, but I would agree that the best we can do right now is control it by not breeding dogs together that we know for sure can produce EIC (carrier to carrier, affected to affected, and carrier to affected). And before you go patting yourself on the back about PRA, we have only controlled it. We have not, and most likely will not ever completely eradicate it from the breed. And would we truly want to, meaning having as a goal to only have clears in the gene pool. When you breed out one trait, very often you remove something else with it. Genes do not work in isolation. So yes I test my dogs but no I am not going to go over the deep end and try and eradicate EIC from the breed completely.

I do not think anyone should be judgemental about someone who chooses not to test. I mean that sincerely.

BUT, I have a bitch who has collapsed. I do have to make a judgement about who I breed her to. I am still awaiting her test results but assuming she tests affected, how can I do anything but only consider dogs who have tested clear???

People can debate until they are blue in the face how effective the test is, and the scientists do seem to think it is quite effective, but what other option do I have??? Do I breed her to untested males? Do I spay her? The reasonable choice is clear to me. No hysteria here. Just cold logic...