11 week old pick bitch puppy... Very promising puppy, but has a high tail carriage.. Tail set "slightly" high on rear. When set up tail comes straight off the back. Nice level topline. Do they ever come down? Already have one ( older dog) that never came down and it ruins the whole picture for me...
Looking for experiences.
Thanks!

It's better high than a low tailset.
I think it's a crap shoot. You already have one that didn't correct. It may, or may not. I have seen them be normal at an older age. We all need a crystal ball.

Thanks. The boy is not my breeding so they are not related. Yes a crystal ball could be nice!

Do you know who the sire and dam are? Does the sire throw high tailsets and carriage? That is what you have to look at. It is hard to know how a tail will turn out. I have had an 8 week puppy with a nice tailset and now he is 15 months and he carries his tail high at this age.

High tail sets = high carried tails. Contrare to what many believe, our tails are not to come straight off the back. You want and should have a 'slight' slope to croup. The tail is actually coming off the croup and the croup should not be
totally level with the back (which should be level). The croup is that part of the top line from the top most point of the sacrum (the counterpoint of
the scapula/wither)to the root of the tail. Since the sacrum sits slightly above the line of the spine (as does the scapula in the front), the croup
should slope slightly to the point of the spine's extension from the body beyond the croup and the tail extends from that point, if proper, in a
fairly level line or slight downward line when the dog is not excited. If this configuration is correct, the dog, even at its most excited, should not
be able to raise its tail above a one or two o'clock position.

I disagree with that totally. My best male has a tail right off the top as it should be. He never carries it any higher than perfectly level. It is a perfect rudder.

Well, you can disagree all you want but tails do not come off the spine... They come off the croup~ It is a misconception by many.

Oh mighty expert you be, show me in the standard where it states there should be a slight slope at the croup? I've bolded the references to topline/tail-set/carriage. I see nothing that states there should be a slight slope.

Topline--The back is strong and the topline is level from the withers to the croup when standing or moving. However, the loin should show evidence of flexibility for athletic endeavor. Body--The Labrador should be short-coupled, with good spring of ribs tapering to a moderately wide chest. The Labrador should not be narrow chested; giving the appearance of hollowness between the front legs, nor should it have a wide spreading, bulldog-like front. Correct chest conformation will result in tapering between the front legs that allows unrestricted forelimb movement. Chest breadth that is either too wide or too narrow for efficient movement and stamina is incorrect. Slab-sided individuals are not typical of the breed; equally objectionable are rotund or barrel chested specimens. The underline is almost straight, with little or no tuck-up in mature animals. Loins should be short, wide and strong; extending to well developed, powerful hindquarters. When viewed from the side, the Labrador Retriever shows a well-developed, but not exaggerated forechest. Tail--The tail is a distinguishing feature of the breed. It should be very thick at the base, gradually tapering toward the tip, of medium length, and extending no longer than to the hock. The tail should be free from feathering and clothed thickly all around with the Labrador’s short, dense coat, thus having that peculiar rounded appearance that has been described as the "otter" tail. The tail should follow the topline in repose or when in motion. It may be carried gaily, but should not curl over the back. Extremely short tails or long thin tails are serious faults. The tail completes the balance of the Labrador by giving it a flowing line from the top of the head to the tip of the tail.

There is no place in the standard that states there shouldn't be one either. The portion(s) you quoted only describe the topline from withers TO THE CROUP. Since the standard is silent on the angle of croup, it takes a bit more study and thought than some of the parts that are described in detail.

To understand how any dog is built, it takes a knowledge of BOTH the standard and functional anatomy. The Labrador is first a swimming dog. That requires a strong core, which is one of the reasons they have a short loin and level underline. It is all those MUSCLES (not a fat belly) that help the dog to work in the water. A short, flat pelvis (croup) lacks the angle and muscle to provide a powerful rear in the water and on uneven terrain (like around most bodies of water). It may look pretty, but pretty is as pretty does.

You may be interested (or not) to know that only in the latest revision of the standard were topline or tailset even mentioned. In earlier versions, I think it was assumed that people with Sporting breeds used them in the field. The weakness of a flat croup without plenty of muscle would likely keep a dog out of the duck blind, show ring and breeding consideration. Functionality is the overall criteria for interpreting the standard - both in what it says and in what it omits.

Sherry, you took the time to explain but some people have their mindset. I absolutely agree with you and admire your correct knowlege.

This is correct.

I see lots of dogs with incorrect tail sets nowadays. Those tails that come straight off the back really do ruin a pretty picture. Just look at a dog with a proper croup and a tail that just flows right from the croup.

Having said that, real low tail sets are ugly and I'd rather have a higher one. Also, some dogs with arguably too much coat often look like they have a high tail set when in fact there is a croup in there under all the fur.

Is the problem that people use the word "back" wrong?

Is the following correct?

The spine is divided into the following parts... neck, back, loin, croup, and then tail. The vertebrae in the croup are fused.

The neck should flow into the topline. The back and loin should be level (parallel to ground). Then the croup slopes off slightly and smoothly flows into the tail.

Again, is this correct?

Sherry Anderson, "Old Timer" and "me" were correct in their definitions and explanations of correct tail set and carriage.

The problem with any Standard is that it is open to interpretation but, interpretation must be backed by a solid knowledge of the subject being described. Many know the words of the Standard but lack the working knowledge of the dog's anatomyto apply those words correctly. IMHO.

Once again, I agree not that a breeder in agreement matters on here. Thanks for explaining it to those who don't seem to understand. None of you needed to spend the time yet you did. Kudos!

I wish I had mentors like you back in the day but if we want to learn, we do. Hopefully, it's done properly and this was explained in that manner. Altho I understand it correctly; I never could have explained it the same way the 3 of you did.

Ugh I knew from reading several posts that they were all from the same person and I knew who that person was - then bingo there's the name. We aren't stupid - we know that you love to post the same opinions several times in the same thread to bolster your position and your ego.

You can say that the standard calls for a dip in the croup or a low tailset all you want - if you like it or it's acceptable to you then that is fine. It's not acceptable to me - I'll take a slightly higher carried tail to get a really level topline (topline is the entire line of the top of the dog from withers all the way to where the tail joins). My interpretation is not "incorrect" it's just I prefer something slightly different and I interpret the standard differently as well.

I think I have read posts on this issue before. Tail 'sets' and tail 'carriage' are two different issues. My understanding is that a dog with a poorly set on tail (with a sloping short croup) can carry his/her tail higher than is attractive and the same is true of a dog with a longer and more pleasing angle to it's croup and those same two dogs may also carry their tails lower then what we feel is attractive. What does not change is the conformation. A correct and level topline is complimented by level or nearly level tail carriage.

I'll be up front and confess that I have spent a lot of time with people of other breeds and then end up looking for things in labs that labs really don't need. Tons of angles and lots of ground coverage are related examples. It is a really cool balance one has to achieve to understand dogs in general as well as specific breeds. I've got a ton to learn.

Standards describe what makes a breed that breed. The writers assume the readers understand, or will learn, that which makes a good dog a good dog.

There are a lot of things that are generic to many breeds, especially related breeds like sporting dogs or hauling dogs, that would not be in a standard as they are not unique to that specific breed. Ask a performance horse person or a real hunter/breeder what a croup is for. Physics is physics and it is not really a matter of taste.

I hope my sarcasm is taken in a light and humorous way but does the standard say a dog can't be blind? I am going to go check now to see if a Labrador is required to have 4 legs.

I was at the local State Fair today and was fascinated as a guy judging a bunch of kids with pigs was explaining what he was looking for. There were 4 kids in the class with 4 different breeds of pigs. The judge did a tremendous job explaining the characteristics that he was looking for in all the pigs since they all had a similar job, and then explaining some of the things that he had to know about each particular breed.

I have been fascinated by the concept that to know true quality in any breed, you need to understand so much about what the Standard does not say. I am glad to have had access to many old timers to help me and I hope I am not misrepresenting anything.

PS

I often post under different names but not within the same thread. I did once by accident and posted right away that I had made the mistake.

I do agree with Sherry, Old Timer and Linda though. I am also guessing that they know more than me about this topic so I am quite pleased to be in their company.

I just want to affirm that everyone is entitled to a personal opinion. That doesn't mean it is educated, informed or even applicable. If you prefer something slightly different in the croup, try switching to one of the terriers. Don't try to change a breed that has had a long history of functional structure in order to suit your "eye" or personal taste. The breed is in enough trouble already.

I prefer a tailset right off the back (level croup/topline) which I feel is what the standard describes. If the Lab should have a sloping croup, the standard should address that. The Golden and Flat both address this in their standard, but being the Labrador is not one of those breeds, the level topline leads to a nice line straight off the back. Remember that the breed is also a swimming breed and does benefit from having the tail straight off the back so that the tail can be used as an effective rudder.

I am just sick of those on here (some may be just one person posting anonymously to make themselves seem more knowledgeable by having others agree with them) who come off as know-it-alls and put down those who have a little different preference/opinion to theirs. The standard is open to interpretation and being that there is nothing that addresses the croup setting, you want to describe and use it to fit your own dogs. Get off your high horses and state your opinion without putting others down.

I know when I look over a line up of dogs, the outline and balance is what I look for first. If a dog is balanced and has the topline/tailset in one flowing line without any dips above the tail, that is what catches my eye. That is what a Labrador outline is to me. I have seen dogs function quite well with this topline. They are very driven, with strong rear movement and are excellent swimmers.

JMO, which will be wrong to the know it alls

Logic! I love it! Perfectly said.

From the standard: The tail should follow the topline in repose or when in motion. It may be carried gaily, but should not curl over the back. Extremely short tails or long thin tails are serious faults. The tail completes the balance of the Labrador by giving it a flowing line from the top of the head to the tip of the tail. "

I had a look at Rachel Page Elliott's book, "The New Dogsteps", Second Edition, copywrite 1983. On pages 18, 39, 57, 58, and 70, it actually shows the tail as an extension of the spine. Then, I pulled out "The Labrador Retriever Illustrated Standard", copywrite 2002, and page 13 shows the correct tail set. A tail that "falls" off (slopes down at) the croup is considered incorrect. Unfortunately, the same set of pictures shows what is referred to as a high tail set, but they actually illustrate a tail curled up over the back so you don't get a true picture of an actual high tail set, only a gaily carried tail. Two different things.

What she said.

You are right... it probably should. It doesn't. It certainly doesn't call for a short or flat croup either. It is sort of like the "eye" description. The standard doesn't specify the shape of eye. That doesn't mean you can pick any shape that suits YOU. The correct shape of eye and correct angle of croup are both derived by analysing the functional anatomy of the dog. It isn't a matter of taste - it is about form and function.


Unless your dog is poorly built for flotation, the top of the back is out of the water when it is swimming. If the tail is that high, it is also out of the water. Closely observe a variety of dogs in water and pick the best swimmers. They do not have short, flat croups that put the range of motion of the rear completely behind the dog. The pelvis has to have enough angle to allow the dog to have as much forward swing of rear leg as rearward. Again, basic anatomy for a swimming breed demands balance.


What you describe is not balance. You need to educate your eye to understand the look of function instead of aesthetics. Nearly every paragraph of the Labrador standard restates that the primary consideration is function. This understanding does not come without several things - a willingness to learn and good sources of education. Talk to some of the people who write books on anatomy and structure. Talk to some of the long-time breeders - and not just in THIS country! Open your mind to the possibility that your personal taste is not more important than functional form. You might be surprised at what you can learn.

We all agree that the tail should smoothly flow from the croup. I don't think anyone here disagrees that the tail should not drop off the croup.

We do disagree as to whether or not the croup should have a slight slope.

The AKC standard does not address this. On the AKC website, the page with the standard does have a picture of a lab with a sloping croup.

The English standard does not use either of the words topline or croup. However, it does say that their should not be a slope down to the tail. But I think that means the entire topline should not be sloping downward.

The picture on the standard page of the National Labrador Retriever Club is hard to tell. There doesn't look like much of a croup on that dog but the rear legs are extended way back and the dog appears to be quite alert with the tail out straight, indicating to me there is probably a slight slope to the croup, or else a dog that alert would be holding the tail up higher??? But I can't tell.

I think anyone who is using the AKC Lab Standard, or any lab standard that I know of, to argue that the croup should not have any slope is misinterpreting what it says. But the standard does not say that the croup should be sloping either.

Those of us who are taking the position that the croup should have a slight slope are doing so from knowledge of general dog anatomy and physiology. The AKC put out a great book on this that I have not read in a while. I have a few books recommended by Pat Hastings that addresses this that I need to go back and look at. Thanks for motivating me to blow the dust of the old library! These discussions are great.

Very, very well explained!

From the FCI standard: "Body:
Chest of good width and depth, with well sprung barrel ribs. Level top line. Loins wide, short-coupled and strong.


Hindquarters:
Well developed, not sloping to tail; well turned stifle. Hocks well let down, cow hocks highly undesirable."

The above would, as I interpret it, mean that since they are talking about the hindquarters specifically, that it would mean there is no sloping croup.

I do understand your points, and it is nice that we can discuss this topic now without the high and mighty attitudes. However, being what the standards are, there certainly is room for the straight off the back tailset.

I have watched many a Labrador with various tailsets swim. None of their backs are completely out of water, in fact, the more efficient swimmers swam very low and quiet with only their head, neck and shoulders coming out of the water.

And as for the terrier comment, the few breeds I looked at called for a strong, level topline, but the only difference from the Labrador is they called for a high tail set. No one wants to see a Lab with a high tailset, so that comment is worthless.

The standard also says:
"Correct chest conformation will result in tapering between the front legs that allows unrestricted forelimb movement."
In another paragraph it states:
"The brisket should extend to the elbows, but not perceptibly deeper."

Please explain how a brisket (part of the chest) that does not extend below the elbows can taper BETWEEN THE FRONT LEGS.

Standards have errors of both commission and omission. The function of the dog has to inform the interpretation, not just what your eye prefers.

Glad someone else thinks this too, the dogs I have seen swim well never have their lower back or croup up out of the water.

It is easier to get a strong topline with a tail stuck on the back. But is it correct?

It is easier to get a short loin with a short back and short neck. How many people think a short back is correct?

It looks like a dog has more substance when they carry extra fat and/or a longer coat. Don't even bother having this discussion.

Rotweiller heads sell puppies. But should they win?

A dirty dog going away often has an impressive side gait. I can't think of a witty second sentence.

There are a lot of short cuts that become so common that the eye thinks they are proper.

Breeding good dogs is wicked hard! Maybe some day I will figure it out. I am going to bed. Sleep well all.

Seriously? I happen to have a house full of sound and beautiful Labradors who swim and do a day's work quite well. I haven't been breeding for very long but do have many friends who have been at it for a long time and we have all produced relatively few problems and many many happy, healthy, and very correct Labradors.

I think the breed is doing very well not because of people who are know-it-alls and think the breed is in trouble but despite people like you.

And for those who think they know what they are talking about equating a dog to a horse - well you don't. A horse is a quadraped like a dog but built differently in many ways. The horses back is made for carrying a rider and thus dips slightly in the middle - a dog's back is much more level with the withers. The croup of a horse is "rounded" and not sloped since it comes up first from the slight dip in the mid-back. Then the croup is rounded down to the tail set. A dog with a low tailset will have a croup that slopes downward coming off the level back. This is very different anatomy. A dog with a level back and level croup and tail set right off the back is at absolutely no disadvantage moving or swimming - that idea is ridiculous.

AMEN Sista~ Someone once said that those who come from a "horse" background make the best breeders because they understand not only function, but also how it applies differently to horses and dogs.

Great post.

Thing is though, we are a round rump breed. Those that are saying there should be a slight slope in the croup where the tail sets on, I agree with you too. Powerful quarters like a quarter horse. Go back in history and look. Go read your MRW books.

Now some can have a goose rump(that's a true low tail set).

A flat croup is a steeply placed pelvis. I would think this would be a hindrance in whelping. Perhaps the trend it seems today for c-sections happening so much in lines as something to do with this.

You take a dog with a flat croup(short rump) and one with a slight slope to his croup)longer rump) and have them jump a fence flat footed. The round rumped dog will do it easily.

Seriously, go back in history and you'll not see but maybe very few flat crouped dogs. They are all nicely rounded rumps with good length to their rumps(slope in the croup to their tails set on).

Truth be told, even a dog with a tail curled way over his back can swim perfectly. Tails never pop up out of the water when dogs swim, no matter how they carry it when on land. I had a lab of questionable breeding years ago who carried his tail like an akita. He could swim circles around any dog I have now. Not saying it is his tail that makes him a good swimmer. just saying that when he swam, his tail was level with the surface of the water, and he swam great. Now, I am not trying to say we should breed curly tailed labs. Just adding to the debate.

Thats really funny... we commented today on how the swimming dogs tail kept popping up out of the water JUST TODAY at a Hunt Test. Your statement is just not true. I think we have a video.

Interesting point. I, too, see the tail come out of the water, especially when the dog has to make a sudden change of direction. They really do use it as a rudder when changing direction.

You were making me doubt myself, but I swear my boy's butt shows above the water and his tail does too. He is an incredibly strong swimmer and he could take you for a ride if you held onto his tail.

I don't think we have a breed in trouble at all! That is simply getting off topic. Most lab pups are sold as pets and the vast majority of pet labs are very healthy and sound with good temperaments. Their owners find them to be beautiful and in fact, most of them clearly look like labs and even love to chase tennis balls. For the most part, we do a great job producing wonderful pets for people.

We are discussing show (and working) labs. The elite of the breed ... held to a higher standard (no pun intended). We are discussing what the perfect lab should look like.

I've never seen the perfect lab and don't expect I ever will. There are many really nice Labradors out there and none are perfect.

Each of our ideas of the perfect Labrador must be fluid as we gain experience in the breed. We need to learn much more than memorizing The Standard, even if it were a good one. We need to understand the function of type. The day any of us stops learning is the day we should not be breeding any more.

There are many ways to learn all that we need to know. But the wisdom of our elders must be one of those ways. As each of us decides for ourselves what is "correct", the historical perspective is a key component of this process. What has traditionally been considered correct AND WHY?

I have not been around long enough to be offended if my thoughts are ignored. What I do know is that I have never met a long time lab breeder who believes that a short and straight croup is correct. Intuitively, I have a hard time imagining how that could be efficient on land or in water. I am not smart enough to articulate why, other than the need to get the rear legs up and under the body. However, the length and slope of the croup clearly affects the type of movement an animal would be better at. I personally am most comfortable with how dogs move on land and have enjoyed reading the comments on swimming which obviously is very important here.

As I was thinking about this today, I kept wondering what the effect of a short and straight croup would be on the pelvis. When I signed on tonight, I noticed a recent post in this thread expressed the same concern. I would love for someone to expand on this.

As to my previous post, there are many qualities seen in the show ring today which traditionally were not considered to be correct. As long as a single dog does not have multiple of these, it would still be considered to be a very nice dog. Again, no dog is perfect, even though it is important that we imagine that perfect dog. The pendulum swings back and forth but also we sometimes need to take a step or two backward before going forward. It takes a long term perspective to realize what is a short term trend and not necessarily a trait that always was or always will be considered correct.

I think comparing Labradors to other breeds is critically important. I think comparing dogs to other species is also a very interesting thing to do. Just like all dog breeds are not the same, all horse breeds are different. Why? Because they have different functions. But there is overlap and commonality that should not be overlooked.

But again, my specific question for those much smarter than me is the relationship between the croup and the pelvis. TIA

Here's a few photos of a swimming Lab who has a tailset right off the back. He's a very powerful and efficient swimmer.

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/9181/boyswima.jpg
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/6439/boyswimb.jpg

Strength, efficiency and power are all different things. I think when dealing with a bunch of moving and rubbing parts, it is correct to say that more force generally means less efficiency. But this is definitely not always the case. Are there any mechanical engineers, physicists or exercise physiologists who want to chime in? This is exactly like we need to do, think like engineers.

I still think half the disagreement is differing use of words and this is just another example of that. If you read the posts, even people on the same side of the arguments are using the same words differently. I think this is the case in many arguments and not just this one.

But I also think we are discussing a subtle point. Those of us who don't see it, don't know we don't see it. duh

This is the second night in a row that this is the last thing I am doing before bed. Good night all.

You make a very good point. A "strong" swimmer to one observer can be a "wasted energy" swimmer to another observer. One of the clues we get to proper overall structure and efficiency in our breed is in in the section describing movement. It should be "effortless". That doesn't mean shuffling or lazy, just with no wasted energy.

This does translate into how they swim in my experience. I have had dogs that demonstrate a lot of power when they swim, but don't get to the bird any better than others and wear themselves out sooner. The best swimmers I have observed over the years swim kind of like an otter. They hardly leave a ripple on the water surface, but get to the bird fast and efficiently. Their backs are a little above the water and their stroke is coordinated using both front and rear drive (many Labs don't use their rears when swimming). They can swim for a long time or repeatedly without getting too tired. They are "effortless" in motion, whether on land or water.

I would enjoy discussing this topic (and likely others) with you privately sometime.

If you haven't done so already, take a look at this photo of the swimming lab. Go to http://www.cygnet-labs.com/folklaur/LabDiagrams.htm and click where it says "Lab is a swimming breed.doc" That is the picture I see when my boy swims.

As someone who used to teach kids to swim, I know the kids whose bodies (and their butts) are at or close to the surface swim well. The kids whose feet and legs are down are struggling to move at all.

If your dog's butt is below the surface it is not swimming well, but is working like crazy to get the job done. Labs who are not properly built can still perform because they have a lot of "heart".

I am posting a question on the other thread (dog anatomy). I don't want to do two posts.