I am confused about fronts.
My girl has great length and angle of upper arm (more than most). Actually it's very pretty. She has nice layback of shoulder, nice length of neck and is not wide at the withers. This girl tracks really wide in the front, but normal behind. What is the reason for this? I just don't get it because the structure is correct from what I can see.

Might it be something to do with her width of chest/too much spring of rib?

Just how hard it is to improve on "fronts"? I have a gal whose front isn't awful but could be improved upon. I've bred her twice and seem to get the same front in most of the puppies. spring of rib is good, upper arm is good too. I just would like to see more strength of the shoulder's presence and better movement.

What have others done to improve fronts? Tight linebreed? Out-cross multiple times?

That is a whole different topic.

I had hoped to get a solid explanation from anyone out there that is more knowledgeable than I. I know there are experts out there that can explain.

Please start a different post on how to improve a front.

I'm not an expert, but I was ringside recently, sitting next to a well-respected breeder judge who was discussing this issue with another breeder. Her opinion was that the shorter legs we're seeing on a lot of Labs is responsible for wide front movement.

I found the follow in my notes from a Pat Hastings seminar.

" Tips of shoulder blades: far apart, will move wide. Close together, won't be able to reach the ground with head."

A good friend of mine has a dog that moves very wide in front. Next time I see her I will ask if I can check the shoulder blades tips. The dog is definitely not short legged. She is a big bitch with relatively long legs.

I have had the same thing too, and I think that it is because they are out at the elbows.

Thanks so much. My girl not long on leg but surely not short. Thank you.

Have heard so many people making the comment "nice short back on that dog" Well if you shorten up the body, where do you put the elbows? You bring the shoulder upright and straighten out the angles is what happens. They go out at the elbows, you see worse fronts. Lot of this going around right now. Look for the layback, the balance of angles front and rear. They are not supposed to have fronts like Bulldogs.They are not supposed to be square. So much breeding to the "top dog" without paying attention to lines (if they are good ones) or structure.

According to Mary Roslin-Williams, a Labrador should NOT have a short back. He should be short in the LOIN...two different things.

You are so right. A short back is not the same as a short loin which IS what a labrador should have. AND he IS a square dog or a 'slightly' off square dog.

Why does the generation today not want to educate themselves about what the standard is really telling them, using proper terminology and understand and learn canine anatomy? A simple example. I ran into a long time breeder a few years ago. I was appalled to discover she had no clue for the reason the standard depicts why a labradors head is to be on parallel planes.

Fronts are the absolute hardest to get 'overall'(so many parts to it) properly. You can't do it one generation like you can some failings. Failings are fairly easy fixed(can do it in 1 generation) but faults are harder and take longer.

To your question, OP. If your girl is paddling(moving wide), she probably has faulty placed elbows causing her upper arm to not be able to coordinate efficiently with her blades. Thus causing her legs to swing outward when she moves instead of forward.

What do you mean that a dog moves wide in the front?

A dog who "toes in" will often paddle,legs arching outward. A dog who toes in may also be out at the elbows.

But the back is not part of the loin.

The back and the loin are NOT the same...they are two distinct areas. Better brush up on conformation. The back begins behind the withers and ends at the loin. The loin begins where the back ends. The loin ends at the croup.

?

4 parts comprise the canine "topline":
withers,
back,
loin,
croup.

A Labrador's back should be of medium length, or "moderate", since he is properly defined as a "moderate" dog. He should be short in the loin (for "Defines" the loin is located between the end of the ribcage and the beginning of the croup), but there should be evidence of athleticism and flexibility in the loin. I would suggest a good book on canine anatomy.

It is amazing how OFF TOPIC this post has gone.

It is hard to stay on topic when people can't speak the language.

Closely coupled may be the term need to describe a 'normal' length back that is not too long in the loin (off the topic, I know).

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/back

Getting back to the subject, I picked up on something you wrote that may be an issue.
"My girl has great length and angle of upper arm (more than most)."

I have seen a number of Labs in recent years that have a great return of upper arm (humerus) BUT the elbow is not in line with the pivot point of the scapula. If the balance point of the scapula is forward of the balance point of the elbow, then the dog has to swing the leg out to get it out from under the body. Alternatively, it can lift the leg straight up to get it forward like a hackney gait. These dogs tend to have a lot of apparent forechest, but are technically ewe necked due to the forward balance of the scapula. In motion, they are sort of "falling" forward with every step because the front legs are behind the balance point. This may not be true for your girl, but I have seen some of these fronts in the ring in recent years.

and I have seen the exact opposite A LOT lately. Where the elbow is actually in front of the pivot point in the scapula instead of directly underneath it.
So the dogs legs are not underneath his body but underneath his neck instead.

Yep, there's a lot of that short, straight humerus as well.

How much of the soft tissue play in all this?

How often do you see two dogs both with similar great bone structure but one moves much better than the other for no reason than the eye can see. I think the connective tissue that we can not see plays a big role which is why you must always watch the dog move and not evaluate solely when stacked.

Of course, subtle difference in bone structure that only a very good eye would notice can make a big difference.

What do you have to say about this bitch front?
http://cs-001.123.is/DeliverFile.aspx?id=bfd533fe-eb10-4a60-b86b-c4f472c52171

Can we see a picture of the dog from the front?

Oh I'm sorry... can you see this pic?
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs919.snc4/73289_111835792213616_111835675546961_92539_2344265_n.jpg

Yes, I saw this picture from your first posting, but I didn't express myself well. I want to see a picture of her front with her facing the camera.

I'm confused-- how can you say a dog is balanced when clearly it appears that she has far more front than rear? And I do agree that the neck seems weak but not sure if you can say she's ewe necked w/o a hands on exam.

Boy, I see things differently. I see good angulation in the front. Hard to tell if the rear is as good. I'd like to see her move forward and back.

I too would be suspicious of an ewe neck. Without the benefit of hands on, my impression from this picture is that the angulation front to rear is not all that balanced. I also think that it's possible, based on the fact that the upper arm (humerus) will end just below point of prosternum, at the point of shoulder and is shorter in length than is the scapula, which does appear to be well layed back

Anytime you have the line shorter from the occiput to the wither than the under neckline to the prosternum, the neck is on upside down(should be opposite) which is what a ewe neck is. Some ewe necks are major pronounced, hers isn't too bad but it's still easily seen and not a good functional front end.

I've yet to see any of these highly angled fronts (almost pigeon like) in performance venues and have to wonder if they are functional at all. Not saying field dogs have the best fronts either, lol, but they CAN cover ground and water. I just remember seeing one of my first "show" fronts and thinking how unusual it really looked.

Would stacking/positioning of the head change those measurements you refer to, "Ewes"? I see more ewes in Goldens it seems.

The dog pictured looks like it is pigeon breasted. I don't like the front or neck on that dog at all. The angle are there , but the picture is not pretty.Please, no offense Hildur....
My question is how come every body like the BIG forechest?, the prow is what one breeder friend calls it. What is the function of the big prow?

To BRDR: the OP asked for a discussion on fronts and that is what's occuring. I don't feel that anyone is being rude or condescending.

to OP: Does this dog like to swim? some dogs with bad ewe necks don't like to swim - think of some of the goldens that would wade out a few feet during a watermark, and then refuse the bird.

As people mentioned it is tough with a picture but...

I don't see an upper arm that is all that short. But it is a little. What I see is fat, coat or both making the prosternum look lower that it really is. That is what makes the front look off. The prosternum appears to be way too low. And if you are using that to guess where the shoulder is then yes, the dog would definitely appear to have a short upper arm.

I am not saying that bitch is any more overweight than most of ours are. But some people and dogs carry weight differently. And weight in certain places can have the effect of too much spring of ribs causing wide movement. The weight is also minimizing the effect of being long in the loin. I say take some weight off of the bitch and see what you got.

As far as ewe necks, what I know is that with a puppy you can literally pull the head all the way back to the spine. It looks horrible but you can do it. I don't have the guts but I've seen friends and Pat Hastings do it a number of times. I see what people are looking at but in no way can you tell that just with a picture. The adult Goldens who appear to have Ewe necks seem much more extreme to me.

Another thing to consider is length of leg. I am wondering if there is a short forearm making it tough to reach and could also cause wide movement.

In case everyone has forgotten, Labradors are designed to retrieve in the water, float. This upland gaming that the field breeders have chosen to breed for is not what the breed was designed to do.

Confused

I've yet to see any of these highly angled fronts (almost pigeon like) in performance venues and have to wonder if they are functional at all. Not saying field dogs have the best fronts either, lol, but they CAN cover ground and water. I just remember seeing one of my first "show" fronts and thinking how unusual it really looked.

Would stacking/positioning of the head change those measurements you refer to, "Ewes"? I see more ewes in Goldens it seems.

I specifically mentioned swimming in the post, which is half of the retriever hunt test/field trial games, which I hardly equate to upland gaming. Just what makes the fronts that have come into vogue these past 10 yrs or so better for swimming than those I used to see in the LQ in the 80's and 90's? Today's field dogs have fronts more similar to those, yet swim extremely fast and efficiently (much better than many show dogs with "gorgeous" fronts btw). Hence the confusion as to the function of these extreme angled fronts. Even the illustrated standard has an older style, more moderately angled front. Of course they aren't portraying a heavy boned dog with a rounded rib cage either (which can certainly mess w/ front movement).

well.....

In case everyone has forgotten, Labradors are designed to retrieve in the water, float. This upland gaming that the field breeders have chosen to breed for is not what the breed was designed to do.

Confused

I've yet to see any of these highly angled fronts (almost pigeon like) in performance venues and have to wonder if they are functional at all. Not saying field dogs have the best fronts either, lol, but they CAN cover ground and water. I just remember seeing one of my first "show" fronts and thinking how unusual it really looked.

Would stacking/positioning of the head change those measurements you refer to, "Ewes"? I see more ewes in Goldens it seems.

I am the OP and I asked about moving wide in the front. I did not post a photo. The topic was hijacked early on, and most are elaborating on the photo which has nothing to do with my question.
Thanks to those that were knowledgable enough to comment on moving wide in front. Yes this girl swims freely.

There are several breeds that are designed to retrieve in the water, and none of those other breeds have the extreme prow or ribcage of today's show Labrador. Yes, the breed should be able to retrieve in water, but it spends the majority of its life on land and should be able to move properly there as well. Many of the field Labradors I have seen have functional fronts (have other issues but that is another story) with length of neck designed for picking up game. That is not often seen in today's show ring.

To Breeder XYZ:

Yes! Both to the fact that Pat Hastings will tell you that and also to the fact that it is true.

What I wrote however, is that it is difficult to see where the prosternum actually is IN A PICTURE on a dog who stores a lot of fat around the prosternum. With fat and coat, you get this sagging effect and the prosternum looks to be lower than it is.

If the prosternum looks to be lower than it is, and then you use it to estimate the location of the shoulder, that estimation will be incorrect.

It is hard enough to determine bone lengths and joint angles from a picture (as Pat Hastings will also tell you). That being said, I am so glad this picture was posted so we can all compare each others' evaluations. What a great way to learn from each other. I wish we could do this more but totally understand why people don't like to post pictures of their dogs for public massacre. Kudos to the OP!


"To: Different Perspective:
According to Pat Hastings, the prosternum will always be "above the upper arm" - (and therefore the upper arm, measured from point of elbow to point of shoulder, will always be shorter than distance from elbow to prosternum -"

I agree about what can and should be gleaned from a picture. However, I think this has been an excellent discussion (even if we have strayed from the original topic).

Too bad we don't have video capabilities - but OP - that's what I would do with your bitch - video her coming, going and side-gait, and watch it over and over - have people watch with you and have them put hands on her as well.

And, at the risk of straying even further off topic: would love to see a discussion on what is in the show ring. I think that when a judge, breeder judge especially, puts a dog up the exhibitors ringside often walk away with wrongly made assumptions on what is acceptable/preferred/correct etc. that the judge may have no intention of implying, but judging dog on the day, etc, that is the result.

where in the standard does it mention speed??????

Confused

IToday's field dogs have fronts more similar to those, yet swim extremely fast and efficiently (much better than many show dogs with "gorgeous" fronts btw).

well.....

In case everyone has forgotten, Labradors are designed to retrieve in the water, float. This upland gaming that the field breeders have chosen to breed for is not what the breed was designed to do.

Confused

I've yet to see any of these highly angled fronts (almost pigeon like) in performance venues and have to wonder if they are functional at all. Not saying field dogs have the best fronts either, lol, but they CAN cover ground and water. I just remember seeing one of my first "show" fronts and thinking how unusual it really looked.

Would stacking/positioning of the head change those measurements you refer to, "Ewes"? I see more ewes in Goldens it seems.

Speed as a word isn't mentioned, however, under the General Appearance section alone, the descriptors "athletic", "efficient" (Retriever of game), "little or no effort" (describing movement and work) and (substance) "without lumber or cloddiness" are clearly mentioned.

At a recent test I overheard another handler comment that "even" the show dogs were doing a nice job. It should be that way all the time (but clearly it isn't).

well.....

where in the standard does it mention speed??????

Confused

IToday's field dogs have fronts more similar to those, yet swim extremely fast and efficiently (much better than many show dogs with "gorgeous" fronts btw).

well.....

In case everyone has forgotten, Labradors are designed to retrieve in the water, float. This upland gaming that the field breeders have chosen to breed for is not what the breed was designed to do.

Confused

I've yet to see any of these highly angled fronts (almost pigeon like) in performance venues and have to wonder if they are functional at all. Not saying field dogs have the best fronts either, lol, but they CAN cover ground and water. I just remember seeing one of my first "show" fronts and thinking how unusual it really looked.

Would stacking/positioning of the head change those measurements you refer to, "Ewes"? I see more ewes in Goldens it seems.

Nothing that is stated there even remotely implies "speed". In fact, the terms "efficient" and "little or no effort" would imply a moderately steady pace, whether swimming or on land

Yes, but many are painfully slow or appear to use a lot more effort to do the same job as the others do "effortlessly"... on land and water -- re: lumbering/cloddiness. Also see this w/ some goldens in the water, but that is usually blamed on the "dripping coat".

who has a diagram they can post of a correct front, incorrect front and all the names of the parts?
I love seeing it in paper!!

There was a super discussion "elsewhere" with diagrams and photos...probably would not work here.

May I suggest the Book and Film "Dogsteps"

Wealth of information

Here is a link to check out on judging fronts.

http://www.rycroftlabradors.com/fronts

Yes but those are chinese crested, not Labs.

It gives an idea of the structure of the front. Gee aren't we ungrateful.

Any comments on this front?
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1369.snc4/164194_1624992998054_1633381441_1439689_4503360_n.jpg

From the photo, looks like a short upper arm.

Agreed. The upper arm appears to be only about 3/4 the length of the scapula. Ideally, the upper arm should nearly approximate the length of the scapula.

Glad this thread is going again! Loved it!

This one does look like a short upper arm.

The other picture, of the black, she does have a ewe neck. While its true, absolutely, that you can't (and shouldn't) pass overall judgment based on a picture - especially one picture - there are some things that can't be created by posing, and can't be hidden by or created by a picture - and a ewe neck is one of those. One of the problems that I see sitting at ringside is non-breeder judges rewarding a ewe neck, and a lot of people ringside agreeing, because it looks pretty with that upright, noble looking head up in the air. The problem is, it is not correct in a Labrador.

On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd give this dog a 9. This is a nice front and I think some people are hypercritical.

I was just looking at pictures of a dog with a pedigree that goes very well with mine. When free stacking, this dog seemed amazing. "Structurally about perfect" as my wife initially said. Not to mention a ton of type.....

We asked for a video of him moving. We ended up seeing him at a prestigious show.

The dog had no reach. He was driving from the rear but was not opening up his shoulder. He was short stepping.

The thing is, the handler did not use the ring at all. I am sure since it was a big show with many entries, the judge was asking them to only use part of the ring to save time.

I would love to see this dog in person and get my hands on him. But if I could, I would ask to see him really moving out. Labs do not need to cover a ton of ground, but they do need to opportunity to move out. You can not just judge dogs when stacked, even if you can get your hands on them.

back to the origianl question. I believe that sometimes you can get wide moving in the front if the ribs are barrel shaped. this does not allow the legs to converge as the animal speeds up.

I am not sure this may help, but this is the Canadian standard Pdf that we up in Canada have to follow, which differs slightly from other countries standards. It includes some pictures to visualize.This standard will be revised Jan 2011. But, it gives you a wealth of knowledge and understanding of the breed.
Education is a key to non breeder judges. Having seminars for new breeders and new judges, even old time judges we all can still learn something. Even going to a hunt test for the first time to see what a labrador truly does will open your eyes to the performance and function of the breed.Seeing a dog swim, planing out in the water, using it tail as a rutter, and using its fronts( power) and rear legs( drives) to swim should be effortlessly beautiful.

http://www.bclab.com/Standard.pdf