Is it my imagination or does it seem like more and more all breed judges are really counting teeth lately? Ones that never used to either! A shame that a dog who has more correct type & structure would not get the recognition because they were missing a tooth. And no, it's not my dog.

If it is not your dog then why are you complaining about it?

I don't see complaints. I see a question. Don't get so pissy about a breeder noticing something that might help others.

It's good for me to know. I have 1 dog with 1 missing tooth. Nope, I'm not worried about it but if I hear a particular judge is consumed with counting every tooth then I won't show under that judge.

A good topic if you ask me.

Hey, that's great news. Hopefully if you have 2 similarly nice dogs, the one with ALL it's teeth would be the one picked. At least the judges are looking. The worst is when the judge clearly prefers a style or a color, and barely looks at you because your dog isn't of that color.

Perhaps instead of assuming that the judges are becoming tooth fairies consider that the quality of dogs have improved and when two equal dogs are presented that perhaps the teeth may be the only separating factor between the two, hence the reason for a closer look.

I recently had an incidence where my bitch (who is missing one premolar) was examined by an all-breed judge and once the missing tooth was noted and the judge clearly sighed, she stopped examining my bitch and told me to go down and back and never gave her another look. She has lost several times because of her tooth and judges have told me the reason was so. This is one example of why I go to very few all-breed shows, there are far too many fault-judges who do not look at the whole dog, in my opinion.
Of course I would prefer it if my bitch had full dentition but she is beautiful and has done well at specialties, has both her majors and was BOS in Sweeps at Potomac. Those wins/opinions of my bitch are far more meaningful.

How many people know that there should be 42 teeth? Many say "full dentition" when, in fact, they neglect to consider the presence or absence of those first two tiny premolars immediately behind the lower canines. If one is missing, then the dog does not have "full dentition". Count your dog's teeth!

When a judge tells an exhibitor that they preferred their dog but just couldn't put up a missing tooth, then that is a problem. I understand if it's two similar dogs but when one is clearly better, then I have an issue. If that is what they are teaching all breed judges to focus on then help us all!

Let's do away with the myths and look at some facts.
Who "teaches" the judges? The parent club and breeder/mentors. If judges are being "taught" to ignore dogs with missing teeth, fix the problem at the source. Take the issue to the judges' education committee of the LRC and ask that they emphasize it is a FAULT to the degree of the missing teeth. One missing tooth does not negate a short loin, correct shoulder or any of the other more important breed attributes. It is a factor, but only becomes important if many teeth are missing.

Our standard is not straightforward or easy for a newcomer to the breed. It is wordy, convoluted and self-contradictory. That is why judges are REQUIRED to attend parent club approved education and consult with a breeder/mentor before applying for a breed. Stop blaming the victims of poor education for their actions - address the problem at the source.

Hmmmmm I hope everybody who is breeding know's they should be 42 to have full dentition

Thank you Kristin, you have lovely dogs and I appreciate your opinion and honesty.
I have an upcoming bitch who is stunning, but missing one premolar on the show side, of course.
It does concern me that she will be overlooked for it, but then again I mostly stick to breeder judges and specialties so we should be okay.

I have been showing for several years. I own some with missing teeth. I have shown these dogs in all breed shows. Dogs with missing pre molars can and do finish. Although it will take longer to finish a good quality dog who is missing teeth. Some judges will over look the missing teeth due to the dog having many other good qualities to out weigh the fault of the missing teeth. There will be many times where you will hit a string of judges where it seems like all of them are tooth fairies. Then you will hit judges who don't care about it as much. It is really hit or miss until you start to learn which ones are the tooth fairy judges. I always know when mine do not even get a placement in the class it is because they are missing teeth. Then I do not show my dogs who are missing teeth to those judges again.

Whether it is teeth, coat, substance, movement, color, it is the same general idea. We try to figure out what individual judges like and dislike. Then we choose to enter or not, according to what we observe. It is part of the show game. Judges will pick what they like. And we are no different in that regard.

Judges are required to check the teeth. You would be surprised how often the Field Reps are watching and looking for any infraction in order to give the judge a good dressing down. Just because the judge went over the teeth really well and you didn't win might not have anything to do with missing teeth.

I have a question. How hereditary are missing teeth?? If a stud who is missing 2 is bred to a bitch that is missing 2, will their offspring be missing 2 or more or even none?

Yes.

Have you seen who the LRC judges education people are??? I wouldn't look to any of them for anything much in the way of useful guidance. More than one of them hasn't finished a dog since Banchory Bolo was in the ring (just kidding but you get my point). One of these people is a notorious tooth fairy and served on the standard committee. She would not negotiate on this whole tooth issue and that is why it is there. And you are absolutely correct in your characterization of the standard. All breed judges - expecially the newer ones - don't have a clue as to how to proceed in the ring, and many of them will tell you exactly that. That's why those of us who serve on judges panels with them should really try to provide as much education as we can when we have that face to face opportunity.

Not only have I experienced more all breed judges counting teeth - many of them want to "send a message"
Here's what has happened : judge is examining teeth, finds the missing premolar, inserts his/her finger into the space and actully moves the dog's head. It's as if the judge wants to make sure that I know that he/she has found the missing tooth!! For goodness sake, does the judge really think that I didn't know the tooth was missing? No need to be so rough with my dog. Go over the dog, notice the missing tooth and then make your decision. I have a very nice boy - and he's won some points but if there are 2 very nice dogs competing against each other , I do expect the judge to put up the dog with full dentition.
By the way, this has happened several times over the past 2 years under different all breed judges>

There was a specialty judge now retired that quite memorably judged a rather large specialty.

I enjoy senior people and dogs but this woman was not fit to do her 2 last assignments according to most breeders including myself. Those last 2 assignments were a televised, large All Breed show and a very large Speciality, both being top of the line shows.

So why was she allowed to judge when she could barely stand, walk or examine the dogs? She couldn't have checked a bite or proper conformation as her own gait was way too stiff. I felt sorry for her while in the ring to be honest.

It's not only All Breed shows where elderly judges have been given the honour of judging, it has happened at Specialty shows also. They can count every tooth or miss dogs with 4 teeth that are not there. It can happen both ways.

Sometimes it's best to retire with your best performance, dog or judge. That's the time for the older judge to sit back, enjoy and watch a large show. JMO.

"There was a specialty judge now retired that quite memorably judged a rather large specialty.

I enjoy senior people and dogs but this woman was not fit to do her 2 last assignments according to most breeders including myself. Those last 2 assignments were a televised, large All Breed show and a very large Speciality, both being top of the line shows.

So why was she allowed to judge when she could barely stand, walk or examine the dogs? She couldn't have checked a bite or proper conformation as her own gait was way too stiff. I felt sorry for her while in the ring to be honest.

It's not only All Breed shows where elderly judges have been given the honour of judging, it has happened at Specialty shows also. They can count every tooth or miss dogs with 4 teeth that are not there. It can happen both ways.

Sometimes it's best to retire with your best performance, dog or judge. That's the time for the older judge to sit back, enjoy and watch a large show. JMO."

Not sure what your comment has to do with missing teeth but your reference to the judge mentioned above deserves a comment.

The judge you're referring to was a good judge, good enough not to have to "stand, walk" or physically examine every minute hair on the dogs if she didn't want to. That's what a good judge is. She could watch the dog walk in the ring and know if he was a good example of the breed and worth a second look. And the ones that got a second look got enough of one for her to make up her mind quite easily. You can spend all day looking at a dog and not know what you're looking at or you can spend a couple of seconds and figure it out. She knew what she was doing and whether people ringside liked her ring procedure or not wouldn't have matter to her one bit.

Amen, Breeder X - well said. These days the millenials think they know it all with a couple of years in. Give us elders a break. We are not all doddering old idiots. We will leave that to the twirps.

Yes, if both the stud and the bitch are missing teeth most likely their offspring will be missing teeth. I bred a stud who is missing 3 pre molars to a bitch with full dentition. I have examined the mouths of 5 out of the 8 puppies from this litter after they were old enough to have all of their teeth. All 5 have full dentition I don't know about the other 3.