Half brother to half sister is it ok if you know the line is clean? Please give me you thoughts and concerns.

That isn't line breeding, that is inbreeding. You can really set your type this way, but if there are any skeletons in the closet, they will present themselves. I, personally, wouldn't do it.

And with TVD as an example I'm betting there could be lots of those skeletons

That's not line breeding, that's inbreeding. I personally would not do it as no line is clean.

If you know what you are doing, yes, why not?

It is linebreeding, but hopefully you are dealing with two exceptional dogs. If you are trying to "lock in" exceptional traits of your bitch, you should go to her sire's sire first.

Read The Poodle And The Chocolate Cake on The Canine Diversity Project website.

That is not inbreeding... That is tight line breeding. It acceptable and is fairly common.

I believe breeding should have a purpose. What is your purpose in this breeding? What do you hope to achieve?

There is always more than one road to Rome. What other means to achieve the same end have you considered?

What exactly do you mean when you say "the line" is "clean." I both want to know what you mean by "line" and "clean." How far back have you examined the pedigree to see how "clean" the line is?

How much inbreeding already exists in the 8 generation pedigree of the two dogs? Inbreeding of two highly inbred dogs is quite different from inbreeding of two highly outcrossed dogs.

The simple fact that you state the LINE IS CLEAN , tells me you do not have the knowledge base to do the breeding.
I have done this half sister , half brother breeding, and NO LINE IS CLEAN. It was sixth generation ownership/bred by me, I knew what was there, and I have enough knowledge about the six generations that I actually lived with to know , NO LINE IS CLEAN. You must be prepared to keep every puppy long enough to do some clearances and not pass them on to unsuspecting pet people. It is an experiment that you take responsibility for , if you are up for that, then go ahead and do it, if not , you better re-think it.

While I do agree that one needs to know the line, and not just hearsay from others, I find that those attacking the OP sound odd, and that they sound like the anti-breeder folk. Sometimes it is better to use the devil you know than the devil you don't, especially when the devil you know is an angel genetically. Outcrossing does NOT automatically increase health, and the coefficients of inbreeding on even line bred, half sib breedings can be lower than on those who do the more widely accepted uncle/niece breedings, etc. Read some articles by Dr. Jerold Bell. Yes, I have done both outcrosses and line breeding. Have had the worst surprises with one outcross breeding, but there were good things there too. Would I double on that? Not for generations! My close (half sibs) breeding was my healthiest litter, and still is, years later. That was doubling on a very healthy individual who lived in my house, as did her descendants. EVERY BREEDING IS A GAMBLE, and those who think otherwise are fooling themselves, even though I agree that we should try to load the dice by doing as many clearances as exist. Good luck, whatever you decide. Luck is always needed!

All I can say is I would not. But there are other line breeding that are said to work better. I have done uncle to neice. And yes, just cross your fingers and hope you do know your line. Genes are like wildcards.

I have done this and was very happy with the results, but I knew what I was looking for and what I hoped to gain as well as knowing what was behind those dogs and what I was willing to accept. I got bitches that were very much like their mother and one really outstanding male that is a carbon copy of his grandfather, even down to temperament.
That said I would rather do this type of breeding or tight line breeding than go to some total outcrosses that I know may have some common ancestors way back but bring in something that I can't live with.

Like someone else said"Sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't". But you better know what you are doing!!!

I have heard all line-breeding is in breeding. The term merely suggest a degree of in breeding.

Also, there are so few genes passed from a relative passed the 3rd generation back.

No, not all line breeding is inbreeding. The definition of inbreeding is parent/offspring, brother/sister. Both these articles offer more information.

http://members.tripod.com/marge_s_2/nonframes/inbreeding.htm

http://www.netpets.org/dogs/healthspa/demyst.html

No wouldn't do it

How about a granddaughter to grandson of the same stud. How about a grandaughter to son fo the same stud dog?

I'm in that dilema - yes I know the type I'm looking for - I know as far as genetic test and common knowledge goes where the problems are.
Pross & cons?

Half brother to half sister is it ok if you know the line is clean? Please give me you thoughts and concerns.
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Hi GA, I think that if you need to ask, you are not experienced enough to do the breeding.

You would need to know the lines inside out and still be prepared for trouble.

Don't forget that the breeding will set the good parts you are aiming for, but it will also set the bad conformation, temperament and genetic traits in the lines you are working with.

Do you have several generations of pictures of the stock in the lines? Are they of consistent type and quality? Do you have knowledge of the medical history of the stock back over a number of generations?

These are just a few of the things you need to investigate before you embark on the breeding.

Good Luck whatever you decide

NBREEDING and LINEBREEDING involve the mating of animals within the same family. Breeding relatives is used to cement traits, the goal being to make the offspring homozygous (pure) for desirable characteristics. Homozygous dogs tend to be prepotent and produce offspring that look like themselves (Walkowicz & Wilcox 1994).

Willis (1989) defines INBREEDING as the mating of animals "more closely related to one another than the average relationship within the breed." Inbred pairings would include brother/sister (the closest form), father/daughter, mother/son and half-brother/half-sister. LINEBREEDING involves breeding relatives other than the individual parents or brothers and sisters. Typical linebred matings are grandfather/granddaughter, grandmother/grandson, grandson/granddaughter, great-granddaughter/great-grandson, uncle/niece, aunt/nephew and cousin crosses. Linebreeding is a less intense form of inbreeding. Because of their focus on a dog’s potential genetic contribution, inbreeding and linebreeding are termed genetic breeding systems.


WHERE TO DRAW THE "LINE"?

Breeders do not always agree on what constitutes linebreeding, with some feeling that common ancestors within the first five or six generations is linebreeding. Willis (1989) indicates that the farther back linebreeding is in a pedigree the less intensive it will be, pointing out that a dog appearing 12 times (out of a possible 32) in the 6th generation of a pedigree would have a Coefficient of Inbreeding (CI) of only 1.8% (by comparison, a sire to granddaughter cross has a CI of 12.5%). The CI tells us the proportion of genes for which the inbred ancestor is likely to be homozygous, that is carrying the same genes from each parent. (Remember that homozygous animals have a higher potential for reproducing themselves.) In Willis’s (1992) view, a common ancestor farther back than the 2nd or 3rd generation will have little influence on the litter. Linebreeding beyond the fourth generation has even less genetic impact.

Thanks steve for the info. I think i might go about it another way.

Just my opnion, but unless you have owned two to three generations back of the dogs you want to closely linebreed or inbreed on, you are taking a bigger risk than you probably want to do. One make think they know all that is behind the dogs they are breeding to, but that is rarely the case.

Why not go one more generation away and then go back? You might find that you won't want to do that so much in 2-3 years time...

Best,

Leslee Pope
Huntcrest