I read all about EIC but never bothered testing my dogs until recently because none had collapsed or shown any signs of being affected. Then a friend with a bitch who is a carrier wanted to use one of my stud dogs, so I had him tested. Much to my surprise he came back as a carrier. As a result I decided to test several of my adult dogs and discovered I had affecteds.

When I got these results I wasn't just surprised; I was SHOCKED. Neither of my adult affecteds has ever collapsed, and one of them fits the profile for collapse perfectly (in terms of temperament). One is close to six; the "hyper" one was 2 in November. Of course I spoke with the people at DDC who assured me that their test is accurate, and I believe them. The test is accurate for identifying those two genes. However I spoke with two of the vets in my vet practice about the test after getting the results. Both feel the test is very new and may prove to be inaccurate; they said it will be years before enough is known about EIC to determine exactly what causes it. Both think that while the current test can indentify the two genes common to all EIC dogs, there may be other factors that impact those genes to cause a collapse. (I'm not a geneticist and my years of bio are long behind me, so please bear with my simple terminology.)

I also now know that a litter I bred 4 1/2 years ago statistically should have EIC too, because I've discovered the sire I used is at least a carrier and the dam is an affected. But I contacted the owners to let them know and no one has had a problem. Nor have my "hyper" affected's littermates had any problems.


This is my main question -------
U Minn and the DDC state that 80% of the dogs who are tested as affecteds have a collapse. However, I would guess that in the past, most people were like me : They didn't test their dogs because they'd never experienced anything that led them to believe EIC was in their lines. The people that tested were those who owned a dog that had collapsed or that had close relatives that had collapsed. How many dogs are out there with two copies of the gene but HAVEN'T collapsed? If every Lab were tested, would the percentage of affecteds who don't collapse rise significantly?

This whole thing has left my head spinning...

Sigh. This hobby stinks sometimes.

From what I have heard, the dogs you have that are affecteds and have't collapsed haven't reached a level of excitement for them to trigger a collapse.

You may never witness a collapse, or it may come out of the blue. The key is to breed away from it.

MWK

I never thought our affected gal would collapse. It took field retrieves with high humidity/heat to trigger a collapse. She has not collapsed since as we avoid her trigger. She is still out doing field work, water retrieves- just NOT in heat or humidity.

I think people didn't test because they didn't know if the test was accurate or if the disease had merit for worrying about.

I have an affected too. He showed a mild collapse during a play session, yet routinely does hunting training with no issues. He is 3.

I don't think we should focus on whether these dogs collapse or not. Who really cares. The fact is we have a test that tells us what the status of our dogs are and it's cheap enough to not deter us from finding out if our dogs carry the genes. To me, whether they actually fall over is moot. Mine hasn't collapsed in years, yet has been in more strenuous situations. If I ever choose to use him in breeding, it will have to be a careful pairing with a clear bitch.

Don't over think it. Just test your dogs, breed to tested dogs, and forget about what everyone else is doing or not doing. I am tired of thinking about what other folks are doing and having them snoop in my business. Use the tests available and make your informed decisions going forward, and enjoy your dogs and your hobby. And be thankful we have another way to make sure our dogs are healthy.

Umm, you're joking right? Do you think that there is no such thing as heat exhaustion?

So my question is do you use UMN or DDC for testing? Both offer just a swab but UMN can be sent to OFA for cert.That appears to be the only difference besides price.

Heat exhaustion has a much slower recovery time than EIC does.

I produced an EIC affected a few years ago. She's in an avid hunting home, and has collapsed 2x now while pheasant hunting (opening days) in the Dakotas, but the first collapse was while playing chuck it at the school yard after a run w/ the son. They chalked that up to heat that day, but when it happened a 2nd time in the cooler spring weather was when I realized we had a problem and offered to get her tested. I have no idea if any others in that litter are Affected but tested 3 others (U of MN) and all are carriers. I called everyone else w/ littermates to give the heads up.

I have no doubt about the accuracy of the test at U of MN and will breed around it here.

You may not have all the genetic lingo, but you have the logic to analyze. I'm with you on this one. Stats will change as more and more non collapsing dogs are tested.

I used to listen to everyone argue about EIC and sort of payed attention but stayed out of it.

Until one hot and humid day last summer, one of my girls collapsed. She subsequently tested affected.

This clearly was not heat exhaustion. She lost control of her rear only. She was walking within 5 or 10 minutes and even though I walked her home slowly, she seemed to be fine. My understanding is that heat exhaustion would have been more systemic, would not have recovered as quickly, and if I had taken her to the vet right away, the blood work would be completely different.

My understanding is the young adult age range (over 2) is when most first collapses occur.

Most people do not work their dogs as hard as they probably should. I am sure there are a lot of affecteds out there who are couch potatoes and will never collapse.

The University of Minnesota reports are based on information received from owners. The submittal form asks if the dog has experienced a collapse. There is not currently a follow-up form you can access online to report a collapse on a previously tested dog. So.... here is what the statistics really mean.

80% of the affected dogs submitted to UMn for testing had a collapse prior to testing. 20% did not have a collapse PRIOR to testing. These figures do not provide any information about prevalence of collapse in the general population and should not be used to extrapolate predictions. It is more an indicator of WHY people test. 80% of the affected testing is for cause (the dog had a collapse before being tested). It is to confirm or rule-out EIC as a cause for collapse. The 20% of affecteds that have not previously collapsed were either just routinely screened or tested due to the status of a relative. Because they had not collapsed prior to testing does not mean they will not in the future or under specific circumstances.

As more people ROUTINELY test dogs, we will get both a better idea of the true prevalence of the EIC gene in the breed and a higher percentage of tested affected dogs will not have had a collapse prior to testing. The current numbers and percentages (per hundred) are based on a small sample of the overall Labrador population. Routine screening will alter those figures.

Over time, many people will not test offspring of clear x clear breedings. As a consequence, we will likely see a rise in the percentage of affected and carrier results. That does not mean there will be more of them in the gene pool, but that only "genetically suspicious" dogs will likely be tested. The numbers are just that - numbers. What WE make of them is something else entirely. Just apply a little common sense and simple logic to any conclusions you read or make on your own.

Very well made points! Thank you!

My bitch did not collaspe for the first time until she was over 5 years old.

First of all that 80% is for ALL Labradors tested and since EIC is more prevalent in field bred dogs this percentage is much less for show bred dogs. I was told that UMinn won't release the information/data in show bred dogs only because it's much less than 50% meaning less than 50% of dogs they say test affected have actually collapsed.
Also how come these collapses are heat related? At first it was said that it had nothing to do with the air temperature??? Isn't it normal for a dog or person to overheat when exercised too much in too high humidity? So these marathon runners or ironman competitors who lose their muscle control should NOT train or run since they have EIC? I understand in rare cases a dog can be triggered by just throwing a ball but that is in very rare cases.
There are far worse issues and death sentences out there to be concerned with in the breed and in general I think Labs are a healthy and active breed.

And how is the UM supposed to know which Labs are field and which are show???

U of MN does extensive pedigree research, they know show lines vs field lines.

I can't imagine how so much misinformation gets condensed into one post. ALL of you should read the complete research paper before you make comments about this topic. I will try to get some of the myths and just plain misinformation straightened out.

If you search Labradata for EIC carriers and affected
you would know that there would have to be thousands of Carriers just in show lines. The EIC carriers and affected have pedigrees that contain some of the most used dogs and some very popular at this moment. I would bet that if all Labs were tested we would be floored by the number of carriers, yet why are we not seeing more collapse? I think we need so much more information. Lets all test and see how it shakes out, only then will we get a true feel for just what it all means.

We do see more collapse. I just found out a dog I bred tested affected. I asked the owner if the dog had ever collapsed and they said that gee, a few years back the dog had one instance of collapsing out in the yard, but then the dog was fine in like ten minutes. Hmm, sounds like an EIC collapse to me. They just had discounted it being anything other than a heat issue. I think way more dogs are indeed affected and have had issues, but either no one saw it, or the dog has learned to avoid a collapse.

I think we are not seeing more collapses because most of our dogs don't work that hard. It is a good thing that moderate exercise doesn't cause collapses in many dogs (but I think it does in some). But it is not good that our dogs aren't worked like maybe they should be.

Isn't this the reason for the misconception that EIC is more common in field lines? I am just making an assumption but it seems to me that we would see more collapses among dogs that are worked harder and more frequently.

Is it true that EIC is caused by the lack of an enzyme that allows certain energy producing reactions to occur at high temps? On the other hand, I did read somewhere that ambient air temp is not a factor and that never made sense to me. Or maybe that it has always made sense that air temp should be a factor but there wasn't enough data at the time to "prove" that???

Dear "Not Buying It": According to this and other comments by U of MN, prevalence in field vs show dogs is not significantly different.

Here is a cut/paste from: http://www.cvm.umn.edu/vdl/ourservices/canineneuromuscular/eic/taylor2008/home.html#overview

"HOW COMMON IS IT?

EIC is the most common reason for exercise/excitement induced collapse in young, apparently healthy Labrador Retrievers.

EIC is common in Labrador Retrievers, and now that we have identified the mutation we can test for the condition. Current data shows that 30% to 40% of Labradors are carriers (with one copy of the mutation) and 3% to 13% of dogs are affected (with 2 copies) and susceptible to collapse. The percentage of affected dogs varies with the populations of dogs being tested, and the reason for testing. The prevalence does not seem to be very different between field trial/hunt test dogs, show dogs and pet dogs. Most (>80%) affected Labradors (E/E: 2 copies of the mutation) experience at least one episode of collapse by the time they are 4 years of age. A few genetically affected (E/E) dogs never exhibit collapse, perhaps because they do not engage in the required strenuous activity with extreme excitement as required to produce collapse. DNA testing is the only way to know for certain whether a dog has EIC."

If all Labs were tested it would be more than 40 percent, so why do we not see dogs affected all the time. I live in a hot humid area I have been running dogs for 25 years, I have been around hundreds of others in the same conditions and have never seen one collapse. There is more to this.

I can tell you if you don't test your stud will get passed ALOT. Your pups will be over looked more. Its simple to test. Makes alot more sense than hiding your head in the sand. It there. And might come to bite you when you need it the least.

Science is wonderful, and it would be great if we had no problems,but good breeding isnt as easy as breeding to clearences.

EIC was never even talked about a year or so ago and now it is the main criteria for choosing a stud dog.

Personally I feel the test is not quite what it should be yet.Too many affected and carriers coming up and not enough dogs really having problems.

If your dog falls over for any reason DONT BREED IT. How do you really know if it is EIC,epilepsy, heat stroke or other...

I am sure all can look similar depending on the dog and many factors.

This was taken directly from the UofM website:


Dogs that collapse with EIC, as well as normal dogs after similar exercise, have a temperature of 106-108 F. We believe it is possible that the activity of the E form of the protein may be further diminished by the elevated body temperatures that usually develop during exercise itself. Evidence that DNM1 mutations cause temperature sensitive alterations in dynamin 1 function, resulting in neurological and neuromuscular defects are found in other organisms, including fruit flies (Drosophila melanogaster), and worms (C elegans). While dogs can collapse under any temperature and humidity conditions, it has been found that higher than normal temperature and humidity can make a collapsing event more likely to occur.


Now....what does that say to me? All dogs are susceptible to some sort of problem when active in high heat and humidity....EIC dogs may be more prone to having a problem.

Quality of life is a big issue with me. A dog with mild HD or grade 1 elbows is more likely to have a lower quality of life than an EIC affected dog. What about TVD? It is recommended that dogs who have TVD not be exposed to anesthesia.

EIC is a tool...use it wisely, but list it in the proper priority. In my honest opinion, EIC is pretty far down the list.

The facts quoted here do NOTHING to sway my opinion. That was a quote from UMinn. It lumps both show and field together. They were supposed to be gathering data on just show dogs and lines last summer yet no findings posted. I was told by someone who spoke directly to them that the percentage in show bred dogs is much lower and that some carriers and some nonaffecteds have collapsed as well and were thus sent in for testing. Also I was told by someone I know who is into genetics that the results are skewed since a lot of those people sent in samples from dogs who already collapsed and if we all sent in samples from dogs that did not collapse the percentage would be even lower.

It just doesn't make sense that the top stud dogs are all carriers or even affected. Where are all the collapsing dogs? It should be like 50% of our dogs are affected given the number of times these studs appear in our pedigrees.

The internet brings people close but it also brings out misinformation and one case of something can spread like wildfire. You see a few people chime in time and time again with their stories of collapsing dogs when they are in such a minority. Oh I know they will come on here again right now and say "I have a dog that collapsed" and "I bred a dog that collapsed" but again it's the same people over and over again and those dogs collapsed ONCE. Where are the people with dogs who can't play ball in the yard? I've never heard of any. And where are all the people ringside with dogs that are collapsing left and right?

No people aren't testing because they don't see it as a problem not because they are sticking their head in the sand. The sand is just fine where I'm standing!

And if you don't want to use my stud dogs then don't! I don't have a problem with people not using them or with people not buying my pups. In fact I don't want you to breed to them if you are looking for only an EIC clearance. Go somewhere else and breed dogs that lack type but have all the clearances listed and you know what? You won't produce any less or any more problems than I do.

"I have to let people in on a secret. Just because you don't test doesn't mean it isn't there. "

And I have to let you in on a little secret. Our dogs are healthy and not collapsing so guess what? It's not there.

You know Patty, when you name stud dogs and associate them with a problem based on your limited knowledge. IE a lab test that may or may not be right or you experiences, you can hurt the breed and other breeders. Think before you speak , you might not have all the facts or know as much as you think.

Not to mention hurting your on breeding program. and relations with other breeders.

It continually amazes me the rancor that happens when ever EIC discussions come up. Come on people, it's a non-leathal disease that can be easily bred away from. Imagine the witch hunt that will happen if and when the DNA test is developed for TVD. Scary.

Personally, when that fight comes it will destroy many breeding programs that were years in the making and a lot of valuble genetics will be lost. Not to mention how many will be chased out of the breed.

All you have to do is remember the witch hunt of PRA in the 80's.

I don’t know anyone who breeds for only one clearance. I also don’t know of anyone with a PRA carrier who is willing to breed to anything but a clear. Are those people limiting their stud choices? Of course. Does that limitation have an adverse effect on the breed? I doubt it; in fact, I believe preventing PRA promotes the overall health of the breed. Trying to prevent EIC is no different.

I own a specialty-winning champion bitch that is an EIC carrier. She has clear hips/elbows (as do generations behind her), her heart is ECHO clear, and she is CNM & PRA clear. She has the angles and reach of neck I love, free movement and a very nice coat. I expect her to carry some of these traits in a breeding, so the fact that I am looking for an EIC clear stud dog should not have much of an impact on the quality of the breed. Am I concerned about epilepsy or TVD? Of course I am. However, EIC/PRA/CNM are issues I KNOW I can avoid by always including a clear in the breeding mix. The others (joints, hearts, etc.) are issues I can only attempt to avoid by asking questions, verifying clearances and praying that people are honest with me. Because that methodology guarantees me nothing, I will always make sure I eliminate the issues I know I can avoid to minimize the risk of multiple issues in a litter.

I have no personal experience with EIC, but I also have no personal experience with TVD. Just because I have not experienced it firsthand does not mean it does not exist. The more I have talked to people, the more I hear of dogs that have collapsed. Many of these dogs have very similar pedigrees. I have no idea whether what I am hearing is statistically significant (although it is to the dogs’ owners), but it is out there and it is in show lines. The field community has been much more proactive in testing and are a lot closer to reducing affecteds/carriers in the gene pool.

When it comes to any issue, I am always perplexed at the desire to keep everything hush hush. No dog is free from issues. It is what it is, and saying a dog is a carrier of a trait is not a judgment of the dog, it is just a simple piece of data. I for one have a lot of respect for people who are willing to discuss these issues openly and factually (without judgment). I think everyone has a right to make their own breeding decisions; however, I do have an issue with people who attempt to make breeding decisions for me because they won’t be honest about their dogs. At least with the genetic tests, I do not have to rely on anyone else’s ethics.

Why are non-collapsing EIC dogs so hard for so many to understand? Do ALL epileptic dogs have the same type,duration,severity of seizure? Do ALL type of diabetic dogs have the same type or severity of diabetes, or thyroid deficient dogs, do they ALL need the same dosage of thyroid meds???? Come on people! Quit trying to come up with unfounded and lame excuses for either not testing or for breeding affected dogs to carriers or other affecteds.
For those of you who care, field and hunt test breeders test entire litters or as young pups if they are buying, or at the very latest in the case of possibility of clear/carrier, before breeding. Why? Because if you are interested in buying a FT potential male that you are planning on using as a stud dog, then you only want clear. EIC carriers, especially black males are a dime a dozen and no matter the titles, will be passed over for a clear every day of the week.
Puppy buyers want clear only pups due to misconceptions about "carriers", or because they feel that it is one less thing for them to worry about in the case of breeding. No way would ANY FT or HT competitor buy a pup from an untested parentage litter. If you guys think that it costs a lot to finish a show champion, think again!
The "average" FT trainer charges over $700 a month for training alone. Meds, birds ($5-15 a piece,dogs usually get at least one flyer a day), trial entries ($50-90 a piece), handler fees (usually same as entry fee), etc.. are EXTRA. Figure most pups go into training at 6 months of age, run their first trial in derby at 12-14 months, and continue running in Field trials from than on for the next 2-5 yrs before many earn the Field Champion title.
It is bad enough gambling on a pup and putting 1 1/2 yrs of training and expenses on it before being able to get finals on hips and elbows. The last thing that they are going to do is take a chance on a collapsing dog that cannot handle pressure, run 300+ yrd marks and blinds, or handle heat.
Yes, there are a FEW dogs that have made it to high levels of performance that are assumed Affected. One in particular was bred a lot and has produced affected that were MORE susceptible to collapse than their sire, in fact it seems to get worse (more frequent and severity) with each following generation of affecteds. This is NOT a new disease and has been documented in field lines for many years, we have just been able to test for it for the last few years and we really appreciate the ability to do so.
On a personal note, since I "do" hunt test and field lines and I am slowly getting into show lines for something different to do during the slow months of deep summer and winter, I will not buy a pup from untested parents. I have no problem buying a pup from a clear/carrier breeding, and if it is really going to be special, an affected/clear breeding. Nor would I consider breeding two carriers or a carrier to an untested dog...EVER.

There is NOTHING in this universe that science completely understands. All theories are incomplete. The nature of science is that our understanding of things is constantly evolving.

However, there are still certain facts that have such a high likelihood of being correct that a reasonable person accepts them. The list of known facts about EIC is growing.

Is the condition totally understood? NO! Do we have information that is helpful to us NOW as we wait for even better understanding of the condition? YES!

To the person who wrote that any dog who has collapsed should not be bred....this is the point of having a test that has been verified accurate. You are right in that without a good test, we could not breed any affecteds, the offspring of affecteds, and probably not the siblings of affecteds. But with a good test, we can still breed a dog who has collapsed and we can prevent dogs from being affected in the future by wisely breeding our carriers.

Those of us with affected or carrier bitches, can not breed to stud dogs who have not tested clear. Our choice is to accept the test as accurate or to not breed any of the affecteds and role the dice with carriers. Why would anyone take such an extreme position when there is a ton of information available to use? We can't wait around for absolute proof because it will never come. All you can do is play the odds or not play.

There is a lot of good information on this thread. I particularly like the answers of Raina ,"science", and the last post by "statistics". Most of you probably know my credentials by now, but for any newcomers, I have a Ph. D. in cell biology and teach genetics and cell physiology at an undergraduate college. I have recently published a paper involving DNA sequencing and gene analysis. I don't know everything there is to know, by any means, but no one else posting has admitted to better credentials. There are a few points I want to point out.

There is some incorrect information about how the mutation affects nerves. "Common sense" has it correct as far as the post goes. Dynamin 1 is a protein involved in the recycling of neurotransmittors, the chemicals that pass signals between two nerve cells (neurons) and between neurons and muscles. It is not a neurotransmittor itself, but if it isn't functioning properly, the level of neurotransmittors would be affected. Therefore, the lack of Dynamin 1 is most likely to kick in when multiple messages are passing from nerve to muscle, ie; in strenuous activity and/or excitement. Many other proteins are involved in this process, so the efficiency of this process can be (and probably is) affected by other genes. It is not at all surprising that other genes might modify this process. However, the data in the published paper on the genetics of EIC establishes with a high degree of probability that the dynamin 1 gene is mutated in 98% of the dogs that collapse in a manner consistent with EIC.

E/E dogs (so-called affecteds) do not have poorer regulation of body temperature than dogs that are not E/E , but the protein produced by the mutated dynamin1 gene may be more affected by temperature than the normal protein is. The fruit fly Drosophila has dynamin 1, too, and there is a mutated form that is sensitive to temperature. This mutation causes the same types of symptoms that are seen in collapsing dogs, except of course the fruit fly version. Temperature sensitivity is a a well-known type of mutation - proteins tend to unfold at high temperatures and become inactive. A mutation can alter the protein so that this unfolding takes place at a lower temperature. I don't know of any studies confirming this mode of action in the EIC mutation, but it probably works this way.

Are there other factors involved in EIC? Obviously there are- some E/E dogs never collapse. The test we have would not be a good one if we were trying to produce collapsing dogs. But that's not what we are doing. We are trying to prevent collapsing dogs, and it will reduce the likelihood of that happening by 98%! There will still be a small proportion of dogs that collapse for reasons other than EIC. As the the other reasons- they are either environmental or genetic. Some dogs may never get into situations that produce the symptoms. But there are a number of dogs that I know of who have had plenty of opportunity- they are MH titled - and still have not collapsed. So yes, they must have genes that protect them from the symptoms of EIC. But here is the kicker - they can produce it in their progeny. I know of one such incident - it happened to a friend of mine. If you have a stud dog that is a carrier or affected and are allowing it to be bred to carriers, sooner or later one of those carriers will lack the protective genes and affected dogs will result. This is especially likely to be a problem if you sell to performance homes because the dog will then not be able to do everything the owners want.

Yes, it may be tough to find an EIC clear stud dog that has all the other criteria you require. I myself am trying to produce dogs that can finish championships easily, get advanced hunting test titles, obedience and/or agility titles and live to a ripe old age with no genetic health problems, and it ain't easy! But it is a heck of a lot easier to know that I won't be producing EIC or PRA because of the genetic tests. I can be absolutely certain of that. Hips, elbows, epilepsy, and TVD are much more problematic. More and more stud dog owners are testing for EIC, and, as someone with the breeding goals I have and with EIC carrier girls, I really appreciate it.

"On the other hand, CNM IS a lethal disease yet not nearly the # DNA tested and fewer discussions. Why is this?"

I can answer only for myself. CNM seems to me to be a disease that would be hard to miss in your lines. As far as I know it is completely penetrant, and the symptoms would be hard to miss. If I knew of a single case in any dogs related to mine, I would test, but I don't! So I've spent my testing money on RD-OSD, EIC, PRA and echos. As more tests are developed, we will have to make more these choices.

She seems to have a propensity for doing that.

When a genetic test is involved and both parents have to be carriers to produce an affected, it does not take any specialized knowledge to know that if the pups are affected, then both the sire and dam are at least carriers of the trait. If a stud dog produces an affected puppy, then he is certainly a carrier, despite what anyone would like to believe to the contrary. If a stud dog owner does not want people to know what their dog carries or has produced, then they should not be bred.

While you are naming the sire of your affected puppies lets please have the name of the dam as well.

No problem - the dam is my girl - BISS Ch. Gateway's Wet Your Whistle.

Just to be clear, "Interesting" has been used twice on this thread. As I am the author of the first, I want to make it clear that the both posts were not written by the same person.

Well Patty has certainly paid her dues and not afraid to post her name, more than I can say to those throwing rocks.
Just a note, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out the status of most stud dogs (ones that are actually used), one only has to look at their get.

And now that we have a test, it's not all that relevant anyway, because one can go by the results for that dog. It doesn't matter what the status of the parents is. And an untested dog is an untested dog, no matter what the pedigree. I won't breed a carrier to him, nor will others who care about this disorder. And the people who don't believe in the test or in the significance of EIC will breed whatever his status is.

I have spent a number of hours looking at OFA results and Labradata of dogs that are carriers and affected and I have to say after 27 years of breeding and showing I am sad to say that I do not know the sires or dams of 99 % of the dogs listed, so I have to believe that they are field trial dogs? So as far as conformation dogs it is not that easy to find who to watch out for if folks are not testing.

Patty........THANK YOU for posting info here!! "IF" more folks were upfront then we'd all benefit!! I don't usually post here with my "name" due to NASTY results in the past! I do appreciate those willing to step up and tell the TRUTH!!!

One can figure out who the non-clear dogs are by looking at their get, but one will never know the clears unless they are tested. There are dogs that have produced carriers out of clears that must be (at least) carriers and dogs that have produced affected pups that must be carriers. Like many others, I am interested in untested dogs, but until they test clear I cannot use them on my carrier bitch (I do ask, some will test, some will not).

Sorry. I did not say that their were no show lines, I just did not find more than two that I recognized. My point was I don't think that too many of the larger conformation kennels are testing, at least I did not see the names. Maybe they are just telling people when they ask and not posting anywhere.

Good post, Peggy~ Agree, lots of good information in this thread.
I just wanted to add (I've posted this before but maybe some didn't see it)that I know personally of a MH bitch who is EIC affected and up in age(still in the field too) that has never and I repeat never collapsed in the field doing field work...training, running tests, etc., in all her years. However, let her run a rabbit and she'll collapse everytime... Field work is controlled and they are not running/zig zagging either(they take a line) like they would on a rabbit. Rabbits are this girl's trigger for collapsing.

Just tested everyone- out of seperate "top" show lines with a plethora of BISS winners in the pedigree. Everyone is a carrier! Just another tool to move forward with, that's all.

Regarding the gene that plays such a big role in EIC, that is typically tested for in the currently available standard tests.........

Is this gene any harder to test for than PRA or coat color, etc?

Isn't the hard part determining the gene that is at least in part responsible for a particular condition, and testing for it the easy part? Unless of course this gene is harder to test for which goes back to my first question?

And as for the hard part (locating a potential problematic gene)....Once they suspect a gene, isn't it a pretty straightforward procedure to just collect data to determine if the gene is in fact the culprit (or one of the culprits)?

I think what I am getting at is if DNA testing seems very high tech to many of us, it is really an easily done procedure now-a-days (for a qualified lab anyway)???

Little lies, big lies and statistics! 88% out of show lines sounds terrible and then you see that you are using one dog with 6 siblings. That kind of info is what makes people doubt. Back to my original statement, I only see two well known conformation stud dogs in the catagories of affected and carriers.

As the previous poster noted: the trigger for the MH bitch was chasing rabbits. the "Chuck It" tennis ball throwing toy is the trigger for many collapses that I know of. That toy get the dogs very excited very fast, maybe affects the metabolism of the dog as well. I strongly suggest NOT using this toy.

My affected bitch is from well known show lines. I did hunt training in my early days but have gotten away from it. I have a 2 year old bitch and just from fun playing with a tennis ball, I noticed how much drive she has. The day she triggered, I was intentionally getting her as excited as I could as I had decided to hunt train her and was just building drive and attitude. It was a hot day and working her that hard was probably stupid, EIC or not. But she is in good shape and I wasn't even thinking about EIC at that time. She collapsed. I recognized the symptoms. I tested her and she came back affected. Another bitch of mine with a similar show pedigree came back a carrier.

Perhaps some of the confusion about how frequently EIC occurs in show lines occurs because we imagine that show and field lines don't cross frequently. But perhaps some of the confusion occurs because of statements made by the U of Minn. researchers. Below was taken from their recently updated webpage:


"Exercise-induced collapse (EIC) is a recently recognized disorder of increasing significance in Labrador Retrievers, especially those dogs used for hunting and field trials. EIC affected dogs have also been identified in Chesapeake Bay and curly-coated retrievers, as well as Boykin spaniels, German wirehaired pointers, and Pembroke Welsh corgis."



Of course, U Minn researchers are looking at a bigger picture than merely Labradors so some of the confusion may occur because of the addition of other breeds.

More confusion may occur because the autosomal recessive mode of inheritance may be affected by additional (and unknown) genes that affect penetrance and expressivity. Perhaps we see fewer collapses in show lines (if that is, in fact, true) because the genes of show lines have moderating genes that affect how much and how frequently dogs collapse.

All that being said, the penetrance of EIC in the overall population of Labradors is a moving target. If you look at the pedigrees of affected show dogs listed on the OFA database, you will quickly discover dogs who are well-used and who will profoundly affect the dissemination of EIC in the overall Lab population.

So I think it is foolish to argue about whether field or show lines have more EIC or are even more easily triggered. The future will see EIC democratically disseminated in both field and show lines. And the future is already occurring.

I agree with Kate that whether the gene is more prevalent in field or show lines is spurious. In fact, there were several very heavily used stud dogs in both populations at about the same time, and by chance the gene became widely dispersed in both field and show separately. The identity of the field sires is well-known. They were national champions and one was probably the top producer in recent history. Now that we have a test, this dog's progeny have been tested, the field people know exactly what they are dealing with and insist on puppies that have been tested for EIC. They have not had to eliminate his talented offspring from their gene pool. A recent discussion topic centered around whether or not people would buy a carrier or not. The consensus was that they certainly would if the pedigree was right, except for some people who said that a male would be less likely to be used at stud and that they therefore would insist on a clear male. Others didn't care because they were more interested in performance than in future stud services.

We have had our heavily used carriers, too, and they have been some of our top producers. We should be grateful that we can now use the progeny of these wonderful dogs safely. Who they were doesn't really matter. What matters is the status of the two dogs you plan to breed. One should be tested clear (or have two tested clear parents) if you want to avoid producing a collapsing dog. Fewer than half of our show Labs are carriers. It is not true that you have to sacrifice quality in other respects in order to have no E/E puppies that might be subject to collapse. EIC is simple. I wish TVD and epilepsy were so easy to deal with!

Absolutely, Peggy. That's the simple beauty of dealing w/ autosomal recessive. You never have to throw out anything if you need h/her. I bred to an EIC carrier boy, what I kept had a 50/50 chance of being clear. The 2 girls kept were not, they are both carriers. I have my first EIC carriers and I will breed accordingly when that time comes.
We should be so thankful we have these tests for us. Never an affected puppy ever again has to be produced! It is soooo simple......

Agree, now onto TVD/epilepsy hopefully and to be able to breed accordingly and hopefully to never have to breed another affected innocent baby....

Sorry you missed the dig that the poster who wrote the inane suggestion about an "art lession" was not only insulting and arrogant, but illiterate as well

Humor is never funny when you have to explain it

I am in agreement with your Vets they don't know enough at this time to conclude that the test is completely accurate and if it is does not mean that every affected dog will collapse. I would never disregard an affected dog solely on these test results at this time. I owned a dog who is 11 that tested affected after I sold him who has his JH,RN and CH and still runs as a test dog at tests. He has never shown an signs of collapse. No test is completely accurate

I've produced EIC "100% Show-Lines" and have vowed to never produce a litter unless one parent is tested
"clear", many Vet's have never heard of EIC and my theory is that the majority of the affected's in the past have been misdiagnosed as seizures or low blood sugar, etc.

Why are there ppl so hesitant to test their Stud dogs? it's a cheap test!! If your boy is clear you are golden....if he's a carrier, require bitch owner's to test prior to using him, same even if he is affected............one clear parent is all that's needed to never risk producing EIC.

To those that don't believe, please start asking and you'll hear the real story.

I just had 4 dogs tested, 3 were carriers one clear.
Two carriers were half siblings, same dad, mom of one is my clear so guess where it came from, one of the most used Stud dogs in the Country over the past 12 years! So where are all his collapsing off spring. The other carrier is not related at all and is out of a top producing bitch and dog. Bought her as a pup.
Many off spring out there from those dogs and have not heard of a collapse. If all Labs were tested I bet 70 - 80 % would at least show up as carriers. Come on, there has to be something else going on or the Vets offices would be full of EIC! When I go to the OFA site and Labradata and look at Pedigrees I am amazed! Most all of us have something with one of those famous pedigrees. I hope this does not turn out to be another PRA situation! Science is great, but what is this REALLY telling us.
Get your dogs tested and you will be surprised how many show up as carriers!

Look at the number of hits on this thread! Tons of us that have carriers and affected and want to hear more but are afraid to let anyone know!

Is there a list of EIC clear stud dogs somewhere? Besides that labradata website that is a nightmare to navigate?
Wondering if JIll would be interested in having a list here?

OFA site has much bigger number than Labradata, Check there or if you find a dog you are interested in that fits your program ask the Breeder. Good Luck!

Just maybe people see a thread on EIC and as responsible breeders are reading it to see if they can pick up something new???

Jumping to conclusions much?

Hits!

Look at the number of hits on this thread! Tons of us that have carriers and affected and want to hear more but are afraid to let anyone know!

Wow...that's quite a leap to say that hits are due to a bunch of hidden carriers or affecteds.

That may be why YOU are checking in with this thread.

I have tested 6 of my dogs. All clear. I keep checking the thread when it hits the top of the page out of boredom. I'll bet a lot of hits are just to see if there's a cat fight.