I was just wondering if any of you know why most of the stud dog contracts have changed over the more recent years describing a 'litter' as two live puppies when it seems like in the past, a litter was always described as three? I am seeing more and more stud contracts saying two pups....is there some 'reason' for the change from years past?

Jane Bailey

I have always done 2 pups and I think there was only 1 time that the stud dog I used was 3 puppies.

I always remember it as being 2 live pups.

Oh my gosh no! I don't do terrier - retired from pot stirring years ago

Maybe I am getting old - but do remember a lot of contracts I signed which said 3 pups - and even a few lately - but as I stated in the question, I have noticed more now say 2 then 3 and wondered if there had been some sort of consensus I missed.

I did not see the 'heated' thread mentioned, as I don't lurk here. Will see if I can find it in the 'search' feature, but as soon as it turns aggressive, I wont read any further!

Jane

In the old days and MOST of you people haven't been around for 20+ years, it was 3 pups. This has been picked and needled to death by most of the stud dog owners on this list. Not sure who thought it was great to do two.
With the rising costs of vet fees, shipping, and the HUGE increases in stud fees for average stud dogs, I would say 3 is more appropriate. I would certainly appreciate it. This is not about $, it is about being fair.
Also the recent increase in stud fees has me thrown for a loop. Average stud dogs that may have an AKC Championship but never won WD at any specialty are now $1000.00 to breed to???? I am sorry but if you don't offer 3 live puppies or take a service fee up front, I am gonna pass on your boy... Remember that your boy will only be used if people see his pups in the rings. By making him expensive to use, you lose breedings. FLAME ON!!!!!

Sorry to the original poster to hijack her thread...
Yes Jane, I do remember three pups and sometime about 7 years ago it went to 2 pups in my records of contracts I have seen. There are a few breeders that will still do 3.

Well thanks for saying so - I was beginning to question my memory and order some 'Focus Factor" supplements!
Stud fees are a different thread really. I asked another breeder to be a back up stud dog for me where the shipping and holiday could be a problem last year. When she quoted $950 for a dog with no points, no wins, a few placement ribbons at all breed shows - no performance titles or aspirations, I thought whew....inflation has caught up to the Lab world!

If they flame you - you are on your own, like I said earlier - I don't do 'terrier'! LOL

Jane

You are saying that a Stud dog has to take a WD at a Specialty to be worth $1000.00 Stud fee? That is just nuts, I am sorry but talk about limiting the resources! I know of a few WD from Specialties that only won that one time and they were shown to that one Judge. If the Stud dog fits in my plan, if he has proven himself to be of good Labrador Type, if he has great attitude and is as clear as can be detected I would breed to him with or without any kind of Title and pay the $1,000.00. I know of a bitch that took WB at a Specialty and never got a point before or after no matter where or to whom she showed. Picking breeding animals by their wins just does not seem too smart. Sorry if that is a flame, just how I feel. Does that mean that no bitch should be bred and have her pups sell for more than a few hundred if she is not WB at a Specialty?! That will be good for the breed only Winners from Specialties.

Just like Jane, I don't normally look here except for the spotlight ads and club listings. Jane and I were discussing this privately and I guess she decided to bring to the forum for a wider opinion base.

Breeder...no flames, I personally could not agree with you more. In a world where vet costs are rising, shipping costs are rising, show fees are rising, etc.. I would have two say if there were 2 dogs I liked equally...I would definitely go with the stud owner that offered the 3 pup litter.

Just food for thought.

Number of Puppies aside and stud fee aside, the fair protocol is to wait until the puppies are 8 weeks old before considering how many are a "litter" some stud dog owners have in their contracts 3 puppies at 5 days old. may be just pure greed not to offer a repeat service , in my mind a puppy is something that can be registered at 8 weeks of age.

2 live pups was the traditional definition of a litter. However, in those days, there was also an unwritten rule that if the stud owner wanted a puppy in lieu of a stud fee then the bitch owner would be honored. But, since pups sold for more than the stud fee, many greedy stud owners started asking for pups when they had no intention of running on them. They would just sell the pups as pets.

For a while there, I was seeing more and more generous stud owners offering 3 pups constitutes a litter. I think this was in response to rising stud fees and increased likelihood of ever more expensive c-sections. There have also been other creative experiments like paying a modest handling fee up front and then paying the balance of the stud fee after the litter is born.

Of course, there are those who have raised stud fees to an outrageous level and others who charge a large handling fee up front. But, there are greedy people in all walks of life and not just in the Labrador community.

It used to be that people kept males for themselves and didn't really expect many stud fees from them. The bigger, more longstanding breeders had the most used stud dogs and probably made a pretty penny but didn't seem to care much because I think improving the breed was their main concern (and many probably didn't need the money anyway). The whole hobby is so commercial nowadays. But again, money rules in most places and not just in lab breeding.

of being in the breed and breeding. I can't recall when any contract said anything but 2 live puppies at whelping. Crazy to say puppies at 8 weeks. It isn't the stud dog's fault if the pups die from sickness, a neglectful mother or irresponsible owner.

If you are going to ask more than $900 for a stud fee, you had better offer 3 lives pups for me.
And if you are going to ask that much and I like your boy enough to be interested, a service fee would be appreciated.

I think the frustrating part for me is that if the most successful kennel in your area is selling pups for X amount or offering stud service for Y, then everyone thinks they can get those prices too. And for a while there, that was probably true...

Well 30 years, being in it almost that many years, with only an exception or two over the years, it has always been two live puppies. This was when you either drove or air shipped your girl to the boy. You paid either on pick-up or at the time of shipping back home.

Yep, Gregg, that is what I said. 2 live pups.

After doing much research.......I have no problem paying $1000 for a stud dog's services that I feel is the right match for my bitch. That would be with almost any contract. I do not expect anything different than the contracts I've seen in much longer then a decade.

The amount of puppies is determined by the eggs the bitch ovulates. Why should the stud dog owner guaranty more puppies then 2...... as always since the millenium if not prior? I'm terribly confused.

Today..... the puppies sell for at the least the stud-fee cost. Most, depending on where we live.... sell for much more then the stud fee. Plus...... I thought we were breeding for our keeper pups to keep our lines going or getting better...... What is all the worrying about between a 2 or 3 pup contract?

I want the best match for my bitch. I know the stud fee is $1000 with a repeat breeding if the bitch misses or has less then 2 pups......Some stud owners offer a fee......that certainly would not change my mind if it's the right dog for my bitch.

Try to digest some of what I've said.....don't you want to breed to the right dog for the right reasons? Stud fee's or guaranty's shouldn't be the main reason for using or not using a dog.

Isn't this what it's all about.....finding the right stud dog for your girl?

I agree that the 2 puppy "litter" is now commonplace, but I would like to see 3, and use that definition with my boy. I also charge a service fee and so much per pup if there are less than 3. IMO, 3 pups allows the breeder to keep one, pay the stud fee by selling one, and hopefully recoup some of the other expenses by selling the third. Semen is a renewable resource and I don't pay the collection or shipping fees, so all it costs me is the time involved. It just seems right to me.

Now that is an interesting thought - graduated stud fee! I guess I just got lucky over the last 20 years and hit all the 3 pup contracts! I even had a very generous stud dog owner this year give me a free repeat when I had three boys in the first litter as she know I was really really wanting a bitch from the mating and not keeping a boy........

To the poster who asked about worrying about stud fees or stirring the pot - NAH - I posted this question originally on a 'hmmmmm wonder why they changed over the years' very similar to hmmmmmm wonder what I will wear today so unload your guns ladies you are seeing ghost!

Oh and on the comment about the bitch determining the number of puppies - well yes but....if their is an issue with the boys semen, then all the eggs in the world wont get fertilized by semen swimming backwards or in circles.......

Graduated stud fees were common in England with the bigger breeders. The only problem is that the bitch owner must make sure there is a cap in the contract.

There is a cap to my graduated fee, as it's not per puppy for every pup in a litter, it's per puppy if there are only 1 or 2. When you hit 3 pups you have a litter and pay the regular stud fee.

In charging a service fee and so much per pup, I think it gives me and the bitch owner more freedom. Maybe she gets only 2 pups, but one turned out to be "it." Breeder walks away happy. Maybe I don't want to work with the person again, or I'm busy or my dog is booked up. I don't owe the breeder anything, our transaction is complete.

I've had 2 different instances where the bitch has missed and I've had the very devil of a time getting the stud dog owners to do the repeat. My money was long since spent, so their focus, and the semen, went to new girls rather than my repeaters.

I guess it is different in Canada. I have been really luck to deal with Breeders who have contracts that fit everyones purposes.

3 LIVE puppies. And if you only have males well, something can be worked out. And $800 for a Champion/CDX/MH. I guess I got it all. Well we had 9 (lost 1 to cleft pallett) But the rest, smashing show prospects for 5.

Oh ya, I shipped my bitch, and he took care of her for 3 weeks. and I paid for shipping home. Friendship amoungst breeders .... imagine...

wow that is pretty interesting...... might be a good thing to offer in these tough economic times???

If a bitch owner gets the whammie on low numbers and high cost - stud fee is lower. If they hit the lottery, stud dog gets to share in the reward.

Probably too commercial a concept for some - but interesting nonetheless!

Amen to that.

While I do not disagree with the new direction of the thread via the comment don't breed if you can't afford it........ that wasn't responsive to the concept.

Why would one assume that making terms easier for the payor equates that the payor can not afford the expense?

I do not believe a stud dog owner offering variety to the standard stud fee schedule, makes it wrong or paints the bitch owner as a destitute puppy mill.

Hey folks it was a great thread- I did so enjoy the insight of contracts old and new and even Canadian and British. Very interesting. Thanks!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litter_(animal)

yeah...like wikipedia is an expert on labrador breeding?

So anything over 8 isn't a litter either. Huh, that is strange. Way to go Wikipedia and their expertise. Dumb a$$es!