I need some advice on handling a matter concerning a puppy family who purchased a puppy from me early last winter. This family was sent to me by a mutual friend, that is a closer friend to them than me. A few days ago the friend emailed me asking if the family had contacted me about their puppy, seems the puppy has been recently diagnosed with FCP and needs to have surgery. I let the friend know that I had not heard anything about this and of course I want to know what is going on with the puppy.

In the mean time I remembered the family contacting me a few months ago by email (and behold I still had it), telling me how wonderful the puppy is and that they take puppy for 3 long walks every day, how he loves to play and fetch a Frisbee. They went on to tell me that they had the puppy into the vet because he was hurt by a "bigger" dog after one of his long walks and started to limp. The vet found nothing wrong at the time and thought it might be just a pulled muscle.

Family now has contacted me stating that they have seen a specialist who has diagnosed puppy with FCP and will be doing surgery not only on the one elbow, but also to check the other(even though there appears to be nothing wrong). He told them it is genetic issue. What I have been reading FCP is hard to see on x ray and can be caused by trauma. This puppy goes back several generations on my females side and even more generations on my males....never have had an elbow issue. Again...Puppy never had a limping problem until it was hurt by the "bigger dog".This being said, I am not as naive to say it could never happen because of recessive genetics.

In my contract I do have a stipulation on running and playing with larger canines. I myself do not allow my own puppies to run and play with my older dogs,they are only allowed to interact with me being in total control of the situation. I make sure to explain all this to my families when we go over the contract, that puppies can be slammed and injured even in what seems to be harmless play.

My husband (along with several breeder friends) say that the puppy was injured by the "bigger" dog (they provided that information to me in writing)and I owe them nothing. Many of my breeder friends say they no longer cover elbows in their contracts because they are so prone to injuries. It is not a money issue with the family, one has a private practice and the other owns their own business, they love the puppy and I know will take care of him regardless. They have not come right out and asked for anything,as of yet. I have been reminded by a friend that the contract is not only in place to protect the family, but also me as the breeder and most of all the puppy. If it was just in place for the family I might as well just give my puppies away or stop breeding because I would go bankrupt. I really would appreciate other breeders view points in cause I should be asked to pay for the surgery. My husband says they should be asking their neighbor, the owner of the "bigger" dog.

FCP is definitely an inherited condition and the chances it was caused by rough play with another dog would be highly unlikely. Elbow problems are one of the things that are often ignored but comes back to haunt you....and will also not be talked about. This probably happens a lot but you're not going to hear about. Unfortunately, it could be in your lines but you're not even aware. Everyone handles their puppy contracts differently but maybe you could offer them another puppy from a future litter?

I no longer cover elbows, for just this very reason.

Pet owners allow puppies to leap off their decks , while they fetch toys, and think its great fun for a play date with the neighbors 100 pound Labrador. I've talked until I'm blue in the face, and I've over it. I cover hips and eyes, just like I did when I started 30 yrs ago. Just because we do more testing now, does NOT mean we must cover every thing we tested for. Those pre-breeding screens are for MY information to make informed breeding decisions, NOT so I can cover every joint, organ, and toe caught sideways ! I produce two litters a year, and breed only for myself, puppies are given the best care and attention here, and have great social skills,they are sound when they leave here, I am not responsible for a puppy that is NOT in my care !

"sad but true" ppl don't always listen to the advice we give them. I always stress to folks about what food to use, not allowing pup to be fat and exceptable exercise for the first 12-18 months with girls and even longer with slower to mature males.

I tend to think certain elbow issues are hereditary and are more prone to injury depending on diet and exercise.

Bottom line if it were me I'd offer the folks half their purchase price to help with Vet bills.........at the same time stressing your views "again" on diet and exercise.

I am not a breeder. I do, however, have four of my own Labradors and I am a knowledgeable and experienced pet owner. My youngest Lab (17 months old) began limping just shy of 5 months old. We were told it was likely pano and so we held off on any major testing. When the pano never took a break, we had him X-rayed at about 7 months old. Our vet didn't see anything. I brought him to an ortho specialist who suspected FCP based on what she could see on the X-ray. She was clear on the fact that X-rays cannot be used to make a definitive diagnosis of FCP. We then took our pup (then 9 months old) to a nationally renowned ortho specialist three hours away to have arthroscopic surgery on both elbows. This surgeon assured us that this is known to be a genetic condition. I pointedly asked if I had caused it due to letting him play with my older Labs. The surgeon was quick to assure me that I could not cause this condition. He said that the pup's pain may have been exacerbated by being so active, but he was also pleased by my pups physical conditioning and it made his healing so much faster. Doing both elbows at the same time makes a lot of sense because the dog only has to go through the surgery and recovery process once. Since it is a genetic condition, it is likely to see fragments in both elbows, as was the case with our dog. The surgeon made it clear that arthroscopy is they only way to make a definitive diagnosis of FCP, clearly calling into question the validity of OFA elbow certification relative to this form of elbow dysplasia. Unfortunately for breeders and pet owners, certification based on X-rays is not going to help with this particular genetic condition (not that all breeding prospects should endure arthroscopy!).

Please let me note that this procedure cost us $2000. This is in addition to exams with our vet, a local ortho consult, and X-rays, all of this together being much more than the purchase price of our pup. Let me also note that I did not ask for a dime from my pup's breeder. I certainly kept her appraised of the situation, since we have become friends and also because I wanted her to be aware of the possibility that other pups produced by this breeding could be affected. Knowing it is a genetic condition, I wanted her and the stud dog owner to be aware of what had happened. Despite the fact that we had no health guarantee on our pup, the breeder immediately offered us money towards the surgery. I told her that wasn't necessary since this was our puppy and we had bought him knowing that some genetic conditions do not present themselves before 8 weeks and are not easily found on pre-breeding tests. I told her she could help us out on the cost of a future puppy if she felt so inclined. She happily agreed to this (her other dogs are not from similar lines).

My dog is moving without lameness and has been back to training for obedience events with great enthusiasm for quite some time now. His breeder and I are still good friends. I have no animosity towards her since she had no way to foresee this problem and she treated us so kindly throughout the process. It has since come to light that other puppies sired by my dog's sire have been treated for FCP, so it is likely in his lines but of course that cannot be confirmed through testing at this point. I have included all of this information for several reasons. Some breeders seem to think that all puppy owners are looking to milk them for everything they can get. Some seem to think that any health problem a puppy develops is the fault of irresponsible "puppy people". Some seem to think that if they had the proper OFA clearances that their breeding could not contribute to such a problem. I just encourage breeders and pet owners alike to dig a little deeper. Pet owners need to be responsible for their investment. Breeders need to use information like this to make more informed breeding decisions in the future. At this point, that is all anyone can do regarding this particular condition. In the end, what is important is that the puppy can grow into a healthy, happy dog who does not have to suffer with lifelong lameness.

I feel that the major difference between a byb and a responsible breeder is that the later stands behind the puppies they produce. If this puppy is limping to the point that surgery is needed, it's just going to be the tip of the iceberg. Besides this fee, there's going to (hopefully) be rehab, lifelong supplements and eventually pain management. I personally would refund the price of the puppy, which isn't even going to cover the surgery.

I feel your pain. I had a similar, but even more disturbing incident. I went to visit one of my puppies one day before he was a year old ( and one day before my financial liability expired). I had seen this dog four or five times as a puppy because he was a potential show prospect for me. I saw, for the first time, the dog was limping and suggested that the dog be taken to his veterinarian and checked for Lyme. And so began the saga of x-rays showing nothing, sent to local radiologists and to Cornell. . . Of course, the vet said that the dog had an inherited condition which got the reimbursement issue started with the owner. After one month of being on an anti-inflamatory, the dog was still limping. So the vet referred him to a surgeon who did exploratory surgery on BOTH the symptomatic and the asymptomatic elbow. FCP was diagnosed in both elbows. No one ever saw any pictures of the joints when they were exposed.

After tormenting myself about this issue, and with the advice of a breeder friend, I got rid of the problem and refunded the purchase price of the dog. But, before I did, I asked the client to get a statement from her vet that the dog's condition was inherited. Of course, when push came to shove, he wouldn't do it.

I suggest you do the same. Your reputation as a reponsible breeder ultimately is more important than your present financial obligation. BUT, I would insist that when that joint is exposed during arthroscopy that pictures be taken and shown to your "expert" before you hand over any money.

How many of you still include elbows in your health guarantees?

We did up until we retired the 1st of this year. We strongly feel the responsibility of our puppies, if an owner is willing to spend $1500.00 to $2000.00+ to give one of our babies a normal life we were willing to refund 100% to help cover this expense.
It's not just about money, at least that is our opinion.

I used to cover hips, elbows, eyes the works. I breed very carefully and maybe average one litter a year over the past 28 years. I have been lucky and never had to take a pup back or have a pup that had to have any surgery. If I would have it would have hurt me big time in the wallet! I quit doing that on the advise of my Lawyer and other very, very, well know Labrador breeders and Judges and I sure if I used their names you would be surprised, I have purchased show dogs from two of them. I received the AKC papers and that was it. I understand. I screen my buyers and explain to them that I spend thousands to get the parents cleared and spend thousands to get my girl bred and the pups to the point of going home. My pups are chipped, hearts checked, health checked, eyes checked, and leave with a giant gift bag of food and safe toys, all papers and certifications from generations back. I make it very clear that the pup is now their responsibility as far as any health issues. I will take any calls at any time, I will direct them and help them with any training but I just do not breed often so I can't replace their pup and I can't pay for the pups health care. I have never and I repeat never had a problem, maybe I am just so lucky that my owners are reasonable people and would not expect to make me responsible Maybe it is because I am so upfront with them and tell them the truth that no matter how careful we are we can't produce "perfect and sound" things can happen. They are living beings and as such, stuff happens! Everyone needs to handle their situations as they see fit, no one has the right to tell others what to do with their breeding programs. Just because you do not guarantee a dog for life does not a BYB make. To that point, ALLERGIES!! that is what will cost a pet owner thousands and hell for them and the dog and yet you give medicine and special foods and you keep showing and breeding those allergic, sensitive to everything dogs. If we could tell folks what to do I would say stop that! Give me a bad elbow over an allergic dog anytime. So breeders that posted here and said how you would refund 100% are you going to give them thousands a year for food and meds to keep pup with allergy happy and healthy? I bet not. So how do you balance one problem over another? Maybe it is just talking the talk when you get right down to it and not really much more than that, I take the path of being honest at the start.

I used to not say I guaranteed anything but would stand behind my puppies if anything came up. But then something did come up and since I did not have anything specific in my contract about a guarantee I felt I had left myself open to people calling for any problem for the life of the dog. So now I specify in my contract specifically what I will refund for, a time limit on how long I will do this for, and also what the owner has to do in order to get a refund and a limit on how much money I will refund. The owner signs that they agree to my terms. I just felt I was more protected this way?

Guess you are answering me Warrant considering it is under my post. The question was asked about guaranteeing elbows, I answered the post, nothing more, nothing less and explained why WE felt as we did. We had always had a very liberal guarantee as did our mentor and have no regrets. As she did, we covered up to the price of the puppy, if that is going to hurt someone big time in the wallet.........well........what can I say!

I disagree a 1000% here. The pup went through the most impressionable times with it's joints doing stressful behavior. Long walks, playing frisbee, playing with older dogs. I might be inclined to believe that hereditary plays a part, but I think you can also ruin a perfect sound dog with careless behavior.

In our long ago pet-owner days we did just that with a dog of ours.

FCP is influenced by BOTH environment and genetics. If you were to have found out that the pup had lead a quite life in a single dog household with no frisbee and LONG walks, I would feel more inclined to consider soley genetic behavior. But at this point, you cannot prove that they are not responsible for the damage the pup incurred.

That said, I do not guarantee elbows because I feel they are more prone to diet and environment (from what I learned personally) and unfortunately, even good families are going to say "we didn't do anything" when you are dealing with an iffy condition.

I agree 100%, it is a combination, could be one or the other. One has to only review the X-rays of a pups elbows before the growth plates close to see all the fragile cartilage. A Lab puppy thinks and acts like they are indestructible but in fact are quite fragile until these plates close.

Dear puppy owner, I would like to clone you! Thank you for your knowledgeable and sane response. Kate

Couldn't agree more if I had written your peice myself. I was rung about 6 weeks ago reguarding a puppy by one of my boys ( I didn't breed the puppy) Well this "puppy" is 16 months old and started limping at 15 months old, VERY late for Elbow problems to appear, the owners vet told them they would need to do surgery. When I asked just how lame he was they said he wasn't really lame just stood a little "east west" Then they tell me he is so fat that he can't jump into an old bath tub that they have for the dogs to play in at times, their vet told them that is was soley a genetic problem, that environment and diet played no part in elbow problems in Labradors, of course by this time I was just about ready to pay a visit to the vet, what I did do was ask the puppy owner to ask the vet to put in writing that Elbow problems in Labradors is soley of genetic origine, of course he refused. Some times I do think vets think they are god himself.

The family has taken my advice and not jumped to doing the surgery and are waiting. Low and behold, the puppy has stopped limping and has not limped for a few months now. They have agreed that if he starts to limp again they will seek a second opinion from one of the 4 veterinarians that I sent them information on. I have heard this so many times from others about this clinic, and that they are always in a hurry to do surgery on both elbows at the starting tune of $6000. Some people have waited, and at two their pups have went on to pass OFA. They always blame the breeder, and say it is hereditary. I can't help but wonder with doing a surgery at that price, is the vet going to really say- " I'm sorry we did the surgery on both elbows and found nothing wrong? Maybe it was just pano, or a sprain after all?" This was not how to get out of replacing or money- this was knowing the puppy was hurt playing with a larger dog- something I make sure I warn my families about...we can't wrap our puppies in bubble wrap when they go home, but we do have to make sure that our families understand injuries can happen, and that is something we can not guarantee against. I can understand why so many around my area no longer cover elbows.