What is the the thinking or experience from other breeders about breeding a dam over 7,8,9+ years old who has had several litters already? AKC gives 12 years as their limit in registering a litter. No matter what, just because it can be done doesn't mean it should be done, IMO.

I don't do it over 6 years of age. I have seen folks lose their older bitches. Of course I have seen folks lose their maiden bitches too. But I think 6 years is plenty of time to get 2-3 litters in and that's PLENTY. Give the momma's a rest! With my last bitch, we had a 3 year wait between 2 litters. It might have been coincidence but I noticed how much harder it was on my girl when she was close to 6.

Depends on the bitch entirely. I've known bitches who've had litters with ease at 9, and bitches who were disasters as broods at 3-4. Also depends on how many litters she's had before.

But, that's the point. What makes one think about breeding a bitch at 9? A veterinarian clearance or a pat answer, is acceptable one for some. The real question is the what is the ulterior motive in breeding an aged bitch who's had litters? What makes that any different from the Amish? Again, just because it can done be doesn't mean it should be done. We are the protectors of our dogs and the breed. JMO.

It's far easier for the bitch, less complications etc if you breed them in their prime.

I have bred an older bitch before (8 years old) and I don't think it was a good thing to do. Not my proudest moment. She had high blood pressure during pregnancy, an abnormal puppy (eggs were old) and had to have a c-section. What was I thinking!?

Plus and probably the most important thing is I could have lessened her chances of breast cancer if I had spayed her at 6.

I thought just cause I had a healthy happy bitch it was ok. It's not, AGE MATTERS. I can tell you from experience I would not do it again.

It's unfair to the bitch.

Why does there have to be an "ulterior" motive? The motive for breeding any bitch is ideally to produce excellent offspring. If a bitch is a strong producer, who says you have to limit her breed contribution due to some arbitrary numeric limit of litters or age? Health, welfare and genetic contribution are individual aspects that must be considered, not the one-size-fits-all opinion of some outsider who should be tending his/her own garden.

I've tried this twice and neither one worked well. They simply no longer produced normal numbers of eggs, so the litters were very, very small. Plus it seemed like the girls were past their maternal stage. They did not enjoy the puppies like they did when they were young.

I'm with whomever said, breed early when they are at their prime. A bitch with a litter at 2 years of age, still can look great in the show ring. Across the pond, clearances are done at one year of age so bitches there are bred much earlier than in the states.

Yep, breed when they are so young they can then have 4 or 5 litters. Is that what you are saying. Why breed as soon as they have clearances, would you want your teenager to have a child. Everyone has to decide on their own. It has not come up for me, if it does and she is a special bitch, I just might breed at 7 years. Not your business

Nice attitude.

If your breedings are not someone else's business then their's aren't yours either.


To others, I wouldn't breed after 6.5 with a litter arriving by age 7 the absolute latest but that's *my business*. I would breed after 2, not before 2 on *prelims*. Those are the *teenages* and with all the recent final fails, why breed before finals is the question I asked myself once. My answer was, no reason to. Same for veteran bitches, at 7 they are considered veterans. Jmo.

It totally depends on the bitch and the line as well. I bred one bitch for the last time with her litter arriving 2 months before she turned 7. She whelped 10 puppies no problems whatsoever. Of course, her mom had her last litter at about 6 years of age - 12 puppies free-whelped. Bitch was a BISS winner, mom from a top kennel with late-developing lines, so I had no problem breeding at those ages. My other line, on the other hand, tends to "age" faster - I wouldn't breed the bitches in that line after about 5 years of age.

Don't you people have enough to do in your own kennels to keep you busy? People breed dogs with no elbow clearances, no heart clearances, borderline echos, iffy hip clearances, cataracts, for heaven's sake the list goes on and on. How about this; MIND YOUR OWN DAMNED BUSINESS AND STOP TRYING TO STIR UP TROUBLE FOR OTHERS.

Sad, but we have some real jerks on this forum. However, there are plenty of good people too. Maybe we can praise them.

High blood pressure, abnormal puppy, c section all could have happened with a litter from a female at the age of 2 or 3. You did not know this was going to happen. I am so sorry for you that it did. I had a female get mammary cancer before she was 6 years old, after having two litters. Her daughter was spayed at the age of 8 (had two litters), and never came down with it(nor have her granddaughters). So many factors play into these kinds of things and not even the veterinarians have all the answers. I am now hearing that neutering your males increase the risk of prostrate cancer....yet vets are encouraging owners to neuter puppies at 4 months.

I've learned a long time ago, not to judge other breeders for what they do with their breeding program. They may have very good reasons for doing the things that they are doing or they may not. But it is their breeding program and their dogs. I am sure no matter how perfect we all think we are in the breeding and raising of our puppies, someone somewhere can find fault in what we do. Heck all the complaining about puppy mills and BYB's has opened up a can of worms that does not seem to effect them them as much as it may effect us on being able to continue to breed our dogs. If age matters, than maybe we should all act our age and as my mother taught me... "not our shoe size" and remember "not to judge others least we ourselves should be judged".

If the Breeder is on this forum that is breeding her 9 year old girl. I hope everything goes well with your girl and you get what you are looking for...may the puppy you keep be a BISS winner! Good Luck!

"If the Breeder is on this forum that is breeding her 9 year old girl. I hope everything goes well with your girl and you get what you are looking for...may the puppy you keep be a BISS winner! Good Luck!"

Thank you for saying this so much more gracefully than I. I can't for the life of me understand why people feel they must snoop around in other peoples' business. Maybe some people just need to eat more fiber

I do understand your frustration. This seems to be the way of the world now...concern for what your neighbor is doing or has, but not concern for your neighbor or what your neighbor needs. Really sad. Jill has given us this forum to encourage and help each other as fellow lab enthusiast, not lord over, gossip or tear people apart. But now I am beginning to sound judgmental, so I'm going to sign off to go snuggle with my sweet girl who is patiently waiting for me at my feet.

"Lord help me be the person my mother raised me to be,and the one my dogs think I am"

Did you read what the OP asked *What is the the thinking or experience from other breeders about breeding a dam over 7,8,9+ years old who has had several litters already?*

Breeders then give their thinking or experience and they get hung up by their toe nails. If it's not what certain breeders want to see, it's wrong to answer what was asked?

What bothered me is she is not asking for herself if you read it again and look at the frowning face. She is putting down another breeder for thinking about doing this. Not her business. She is asking for support against breeding over a certain age. We all know that depends on alot of different circumstances.
Each breeder has to decide for himself.

Then all the better that breeders answered honestly. She asked for advice, got it and some are castrating those that don't agree with it. Well, obviously the OP didn't agree either. It was hard to tell that until she posted that it was for a friend. You pointed out the frown *Breeder too* but she is *not* putting down anyone. Maybe her friend *asked* her opinion or for her to post. You don't know the details and I don't either.

I'm sure mixed opinions will help her with the breeder regarding breeding a veteran bitch. Ages 7,8,9 are veterans or they wouldn't enter those named classes.

So before some of you go tearing into others, realize sometimes these posts are done to help not harm. There is no reason to tell people to mind their business when opinions have been asked for in either direction!

Have a wonderful Memorial Day. Enjoy your BBQ's with family and friends breeders or non-breeders. Honor and memorialize those in or that have been in the service. Come on already, can't we talk about a subject without arguing? Freedom rings! We're allowed to have opinions because of those that have kept our countries free.

"Memorial Day, originally called Decoration Day, is a day of remembrance for those who have died in our nation's service." [sic]

I must have read a different thread than you did. Both posts by "Concerned breeder" were statements of a disapproving opinion about breeding older bitches. She didn't ask for advice. She didn't mention a friend. She accused those with a differing opinion of "ulterior" motives and behaving like "Amish" in a negative connotation. So, what we DO know about the Concerned Breeder is she (or he) is a religious bigot that thinks anyone who doesn't follow HER by-the-numbers path should be publicly ostracized. I thought most of the posts were right on target with their content - MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.

A great friend of mine was an Air Force fighter pilot. On a day when we celebrate and remember those who fought for our freedoms, his comments came to mind. He said he understood the religious message of "Love thy neighbor" - but when he flew bombing raids, his message was "Leave thy neighbor alone!"

This is the funny of the day LOL - I believe you meant "castigating" rather than "castrating"? Or maybe not?

I must agree with some here saying that it depends on each bitch. Even though we can do final clearances at the age of one year we can't breed out bitches until they turn 2 years of age.
I bred my bitch at the age of almost 3 for the first time and than again a year later. She was spayed at the age of 6 and is now living her life of luxury as the princess of the house. My other bitch I bred when she was 2 and hoping to breed her again this year at the age of 3....
I do know about a bitch that was bred at the age of 8 and that was her 3rd litter with 10 puppies and everything went by the book. Easy whelping and she was a great mother... I guess breeder may have multiple reasons why to breed a bitch at the ages 7,8,9+

HI Hildur, I see you live in Iceland. I was under the impression that bitches in Europe were often bred before they were two years old. Are you saying that is not correct? If I am wrong, I'd like to know. TIA

There are 47 to 50 countries in Europe. Each has their own rules or laws. It's unfair to group them together.

Hildur's reply shows just that, every country is different.

jmofwiw.

What country in Europe are you in and what is the rule there? TIA I find this stuff very interesting.

In Iceland we don't breed our bitches before the age of 2 years. Our Icelandic Kennel Club has rules and this is one of them, that is not breeding a bitch until it has reached the age of 24 months. Mind you I am only talking about Iceland. I can't speak for how it's done in other countries in Europe.

I don't know, maybe she did mean "castrating" I for one would rather be castigated than castrated!!! That is REALLY ripping into someone!

Just came in from watching my 7 year old mom and her 9 week pup playing. Oh, so funny! I let them play for over a half hour this morning. Mom and I were laughing together at pup's antics. No, I am not personifying mom, she smiled huge up at me as pup ran for a toy and did a sommersault. Then mom ran like mad around our 18x33ft above ground pool and of course lost pup 1/2 way around. Mom hid behind a tree, ears perked, looking at both sides of pool waiting for pup to appear. Pup came around the corner and mom crouched to pounce. They had a ball.

My out of town sister saw mom on Memorial Day and summed it all up. "She looks so happy and young again being a mom!"

I did do a complete blood work up before this late breeding, checked thyroid, etc. I've never really replaced mom, repro vet said she is in good shape so go for it. I am amazed at her delight with this last litter, especially with playing with her keeper pup daughter. Mom is really enjoying momming again.

Nothing wrong with a 7 year Mum for my breeding program if that's how it works out. It hasn't yet. 8 and 9 I stay absolutely clear of and I try to breed a last litter by 6.5 if not earlier. If whelping at 7 and she's a younger, healthy girl I think it's cool. 8 and up is not my cupatea for my girls. I spay 3 mo. after the last litter. Other breeders can do whatever they want, it's not my business and I don't have to live with the problems due to advanced age. We can certainly run into plenty without older girls. I don;t want to tip the scales any further for the dogs I love, JMHO,

As we all know most horrible genetic problems come out after two years of age. I was told by an Opth. that we shouldn't be breeding our Labradors till they are 5 years of age ! LOL yeah right!
I told him that is the age we retire them. He said then don't complain that you have seizures and eye problems in bitches at 5 years of age after they had two or three litters on the ground.
Makes sense I suppose but not in the real breeding world.