I sold a puppy with a hip, elbow and eye guarantee. Our guarantee states the OFA makes the final decision if there is displasia. Buyer said the dog was limping and had x rays taken and immediately had a $3000 exploritory surgery done. After the surgery we were supplied with the xrays. Our vet said there was nothing wrong. The buyer sent the xrays into OFA and the OFA reported back normal elbows. Now the buyer wants their refund even though OFA said elbows are ok.

Now the buyer has given me a letter from the OFA on OFA letterhead signed by Dr Keller. Dr Keller says that it is unfortunate the breeder thinks the OFA results are the gold standard. Regardless of age, exploritory surgery should be the gold standard of detecting displasia.

Why are any of us using OFA when they dont stand behind their grades. Now if we are given a excellent it means nothing being it might actually be displastic? Im unsure if I will ever use OFA again. Any thoughts on this?

Wow. It sounds like their vet talked them into a surgery before anyone knew what was going on. Unfortuntely, OFA didn't stand behind their initial evaulation. Pretty sad.

What came from the exploritory surgery? You didn't say.

the entire reliance on a 2D photo of a 3D joint is crazy. Then to add insult to injury, the ofa places an arbitrary grade to this unreliable photo and that's that.

I have been beating this drum for a long time. It is obvious when breeders are looking for vets who do good ofa films. not science at all.

now this? where will it end?

Most times, fragmented medial coronoid process can only be diagnosed by exploratory arthroscopy of the elbow. Not all the elements of elbow dysplasia will be detected by x-rays. If your contract says that OFA must confirm the diagnosis and it didn't, you don't have to return any moneys. What was the final diagnosis of the surgeon?

One elbow they found nothing, the other elbow had displasia (the surgeon says)

Contract states OFA has final say of displasia.

The bill says Anesthesia $441.35
Custom Collar Clear Size 30 $33.14
Analgesic Meds $81.00
Hospitalization Intermediate Night $119.50
Hospitilization Complex Day $79.00
14 Rymadyl 75mg $40.94
Radio;ogy Study $95.00
Radiographic Setup $35.00
BiLateral Elbow Arthroscopy $800.00
1 set IV fluids $129.50
Operating Room Setup $459.50
Patient Prep $209.50
Rymadil Inj 50mg 45.41
and many other charges to add up to over 3000

is this a rip off? They got offended when I told them they got taken.

I had a puppy at 5 months, diagnosis with ED in both elbows plus HD from an ortho specialist. People were smart enough to call me, my vet said, Pano and OFA came back Normal with Excellent hips. Dog is 3 yo now and totally fine. This is the reason I dropped my guarantee. Not that I would not give someone money back but if I am expected to pay, I have full right to get a second opinion and treatment options. This stops people from running and doing surgery, then the first time you hear about it is when it's all done. I did tell the family, with his OFA hip rating there is a slim chance besides old age arthritis he will ever suffer from HD but on elbows there is a gray area with xrays, it's a picture on the day, but it sure does not warrant running out to do a 6,000.00 surgery at that point.

The price of surgery was 3,000.00 on each elbow.

The puppy stayed with me a few days and I found he had round worm, the vets were so busy finding expensive treatment they lack the simple stuff. I found an article that stated, round worm releases toxins in the dogs body which can cause joint pain. Theory or not the dog is fine now.

Did you call Dr Keller at OFA to verify that he did indeed write the letter, and question him on why on earth we use OFA for elbow certification if he did indeed write that letter?

If you haven't, call him and see what he has to say over the phone.

And yet another reason to NOT stand behind elbows. So many client's vets get a firm grasp on their checkbook, and their guilt, and before you know what's going on , the joint has been cut into. Now, you had NO say in that decision, OFA says that joint is fine, and now it's supposed to cost you money ????!!!

I don't think so. Catch a clue , young breeders, STOP standing behind those elbows. Sell show prospects , as SHOW PROSPECTS , nothing more, when they drive out your drive way , thats it. You no longer have control over how that show prospect is raised, how it is fed, how much improper excersize it gets, etc. Catch a clue, its all a roll of the dice, and newbies that want show prospects need to know that it is a gamble. And obviously this puppy owner trusts his /her VET more than they trust YOU. So why should you put your neck on the chopping block?
Keep the pick puppy yourself, and place all others in pet homes. And IF you cannot keep the pick puppy, then why the heck did you do the breeding in the first place !

Keep the pick puppy yourself, and place all others in pet homes. And IF you cannot keep the pick puppy, then why the heck did you do the breeding in the first place?
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Sometimes the breeding does not produce what you thought it would. Why would you keep a puppy you were disappointed with just because it was the best of an ordinary lot?

I'm not looking for a fight, just stating my thoughts on the matter.

If PICK PUPPY is NOT good enough for me , then it IS a PET PUPPY . And it should be placed in a spay/neuter pet home . And that is my opinion and has been for 30 years.
Just because you were disappoited in the outcome of the litter does not mean that you sell that disappointing puppy to some unsuspecting new breeder/show home . That is not logic to me. My kennel name means more to me than that . If they are not good enough to live here, then they are PET PUPPIES.

I don't guarantee elbows as I have seen what can happen to a dog first hand with my old bitch bought as a pet many years ago. I never asked the breeder for anything as I am sure it was all our fault that she got it. Gosh, don't you wish all buyers would say that to you????

Anyways, I do feel the vet ripped them off. We had on of the better ortho's in So Cal at the time diagnose FCP off the vet's regular xrays and then he took his own...we paid a regular office visit twice (2 vets), 1 set of films (the 2nd at the ortho was at his cost as he wanted different xrays than what we brought) and then $2500 for bilateral arthroscopy. We didn't have to go through extensive arthroscopic investigation before they did the surgery, so in essence getting in there twice. I have heard of this more and more and am SOOO thankful that our ortho did not rip us off like that.

Wish OFA could be counted on, but it just can't. I have submitted new films on Fairs and had them come back good. I have had the 3 individual scores span 5 categories.

I no longer guarantee hips/elbows/eyes. It's genetics. The only thing I can guarantee is that I have done my due diligence to screen my dogs and select dogs that also have appropriate clearances.

How do your educated puppy buyers feel about this?
And, where are you selling puppies?

I feel your pain because it has been my pain too.
I won't go into the long-winded version but I had a client ripped off by a vet and I had to pay half the veterinary expenses on a two-elbow "exploratory" surgery with normal x-rays on a year old dog who started limping at 11 months.

"Now the buyer has given me a letter from the OFA on OFA letterhead signed by Dr Keller. Dr Keller says that it is unfortunate the breeder thinks the OFA results are the gold standard"

All I can say is, "WOW!" That response should demand that all of us Labrador breeders rethink Keller and his entire OFA program. He also should make a public statement about his response. Right now, our breeding programs revolve around OFA and for him not to stand behind his stinking program is nauseating. Let's consider all the money we breeders have thrown his way and let's consider the sad elimination of wonderful dogs from our breeding programs based on the indecisive results of three radiologists(or more when you resubmit)who must be idiots because they can't agree on whether there is disease or not on an x-ray.
Come on. . . you influential people in the breed. . . you club presidents, etc., let's get behind this and make OFA accountable! At least, pick up the phone and demand that Keller make a public statement about his response.

"Now the buyer has given me a letter from the OFA on OFA letterhead signed by Dr Keller. Dr Keller says that it is unfortunate the breeder thinks the OFA results are the gold standard"

Would you please copy and post this letter on the forum for all of us to read.

please do so. Post the letter.

I will be glad to share the letter, but I will block out names of the dog and puppy owner. I dont know how to have it show up here but it is definately for real on OFA letterhead with a blue colored emblem on the letterhead, signed by Keller.

I also have the previous letter from Keller from 2 months prior stating that there was nothing wrong, normal.

I just called and talked to Dr. Keller. He stated that the reason people use the OFA to grade displasia is being it is the standard. Then he told me that it says in the OFA literature that exploritory surgery is the gold standard.

Is OFA a waste of money?

What blows me away is Dr Keller stating in his letter to my puppy buyer "It is unfortunate that the breeder is using the OFA reading as the gold standard...

If your guaranty states that the final deciding factor is an OFA rating, then that's what your guaranty is. Unless your state has different laws, you should not have a problem no matter what the OFA letter states. That is *your* guaranty.

I too would like to see what Dr. Keller said. If that's how he handles things then the OFA is having problems we're either unaware of or that they never told us as breeders.

How disappointing that Dr. Keller is not standing behind his and the OFA rating.

I do not guaranty anything but a healthy puppy. I tell my buyers if there is a problem to come to me immediately, not to allow a vet to do anything that is invasive and we'll work it out. I've been lucky enough not to have a pup or dog have CHD or ED in a companion home.

I've had hips not pass, twice in my own keepers and both times there was misplacement by the original vet due to heavy muscling in the hindquarters.

Unfortunately, I let a lovely girl go to a companion home who later rated a high passing hip grade after failing initially. The second set of xrays were done properly while she was on the table being spayed at a little under age 3 with her new. I no longer owned her and once spayed I couldn't enter her in conformation classes. The companion home was kind enough to tell me and send copies of the OFA reports. My vet refused even a partial refund for incorrect placement.

We live and learn but a letter like that from Dr. Keller is frightening for breeders in my opinion.

I still feel you should go by your guaranty which is the OFA rating as long as your state laws don't interfere. Most are up to 6 months of age and costs of no more than the purchase price of the puppy *if* there were any type of genetic or congenital health problem.

How old was this puppy when you were 1st informed?

I haven't had an issue with educated buyers questioning it. I simply tell them that doctors can't guarantee that every child will be born without issues and in absolute perfect health at time of birth or later down the line. It's genetics. Things from many generations ago present themselves, and those items may have been the result of lack of screening available at that time. When I talk about how clearances have changed over the last 10yrs, I think they're much more educated. In the end, pet owners seek a puppy that comes from quality stock, raised in the best conditions w/ the best care, and great temperment.

My puppies are placed with families that have done their due diligence to locate a reputable breeder. Reputable does not mean giving out a guarantee on genetic disorders. Many of my puppy owners are referred to me by friends, family, other lab breeders, lab regional clubs, breeders of other breeds, previous pet owners of mine, veterinarians and such. I have NEVER EVER advertised in newspapers, puppy search sites, bulletin boards, etc. I have no need to.

As for exploratory surgery, many dog owners take the diagnosis of their vet to be the final word. I can't help if they don't do the due diligence to research health issues in depth like we do. I do however encourage them to talk to me about the ongoing health of their dog. There's no doubt, we are far more educated than the average joe when it comes health issues of labradors in many ways. I've saved big dollars for several pet owners because they were going to do some surgical treatments that I thought were too rash w/o trying other treatments first which did have positive outcomes.

What other choice do we have? I have rethought about Keller and the OFA program for elbows for years. Keller didn't pass my boy Seamus due to one "Grade 1" elbow. The vet who took the original x-rays used to read for OFA and he didn't see anything. I took the dog to another vet recommended to me by someone else who had the same problem with OFA.

This vet redid the x-rays and he didn't see anything either, so we sent them back in. Sure enough, Seamus came back again. When I called Keller I was told it didn't matter how many sets of x-rays I sent in, he saw a problem and he wasn't going to change his mind.

I sent the x-rays to OVC in Canada on the recommendation of some Canadian friends. He passed. He is used frequently by a service dog organization in the area. Out of nearly 100 puppies, 1 had elbow dysplasia. Every other puppy has pass their elbows, yet Keller is the only vet who has seen an issue with this dog's elbow.

I am fed up with OFA but seriously, what other choice do we have? It is my understanding that Keller is the only one who reads the elbows, unlike the 3 other radiologists who read the hips, so if he fails them, that's it.

Well. . . there actually is an alternative but I don't know how acceptable it would be to the Labrador community.
Have elbow x-rays done on breeding stock. Ask the veterinarian who took the x-rays to give an opinion and then have them submitted to one or two veterinary radiologists for further opinions. Keep the x-rays in your possession and show them to anyone who needs to see them.
At least you are out of the OFA loop.

Since they did not contact you before surgery and your contract states OFA has final say that I want I would go with.
be advised if you live in a state with a lemon law, know the law.
Absolute shame that OFA did not stand behind their original opinion. keep tellng ourself,....just another tool...

OFA is as "reliable" as possible and is completely "accountable". Can they be counted on? Yes. They are counted on for providing an inexpensive service to health breeders breed healthier puppies. Is breeding an exact science? Of course not. It never was and never will be. OFA would charge a lot more money if multiple views were requested and a more thorough screening performed. That is not what you pay a minimum fee for. You are not paying for a consultation nor are you paying for a 100% diagnosis. You are paying for a reading on that film on that day - period.

Come on people. You need to be accountable for your breeding program. Stop placing blame on OFA for anything and quit b!&$%ing.

There are no guarantees of course on a living being. A warrantee can be offered if the breeder wants to make buyers feel better but make sure you are not responsible for much. Of course most of us will offer monies back if a dog truly is debilitated by dysplasia or even worse OCD but be careful with the wording because bad veterinary advice can be expensive.

And remember this is what we signed up for.

Its just a shame that OFA will put in a letter that its unfortunate that a breeder will use OFA in their contract to decide displasia. This may be the point you are missing. Why are we paying this fee to OFA if we cant use the score/rating? Its not a nice thing for one of our vendors to be putting in writing to one of our clients that its unfortunate what we have in our contract. We, the breeders are who they get most of their funds from and they are not being accountable to us.

Even if OFA says that exploratory surgery is the gold standard, they should have also pointed out that no breeder guarantees exploratory surgery in their contracts. Most breeders use the regular standard, the OFA ratings, in their breeding decisions and contract decisions.

OFA also stated in the letter that it is unfortunate that they were not given the history of the dog with the xrays to make their determination. Their own rules dont allow going over another vets opinion so OFA dont even like their own rules and to be accountable to me, who sends them money, gives my client a letter like this?

I'd really like very much to see the letter from OFA. Can't somebody please post instructions for putting it on the Forum. TIA.

I would be my bottom dollar that puppy had Pano and they just diagnosed it as OCD. Happens all of the time. Puppy comes in limping (front or rear), vet does films, doesn't really see anything but their "go to" diagnoses is always OCD and then they push the surgery to such the money out of the owners.

On my guarantee it states that if they think there is a problem with their puppy they are required to contact me first. If they move forward with any veterinary treatment (unless it is an emergency of course) it could make their guarantee null and void. I push this by saying It could save them quite a bit of money, and it can.

Did they find anything during the surgery and remove a fragment or anything? How long has it been since the surgery? Do you think that if they didn't find anything they would say that? After surgery the recovery time could easily be enough time for the pup to recover from Pano especially on NSAID's and with crate rest.

OFA may not always be right but if I were in your shoes I would tell them that the puppy is not covered. OFA did not show a problem and tell them the puppy probably had Pano. I would also take the films to another outside vet specializing in Pano if possible to see if they see any bone remodeling.

I can't do that. That is not standing behind your puppy and I wouldn't purchase a puppy that didn't have an elbow guarantee. What if it really had FCP? Then I am out the purchase price of the pup and responsible for the surgery and everything else. That is just plain unfair.

Something similar happen to my boy when he was a 5 month puppy. He injuried himself playing and had a hairline fracture in his shoulder blade. I took him to two ortho's one being the top in my area. None could find anything so they both said OCD. I wasn't buying it, I don't always trust vet's opinions. Finally, I decided to take my boy to another vet I had heard who does OFA x-rays. Wouldn't you know it, she read the x-rays and took her own as well and found the hairline fracture. Immediate agressive treatment on my boy and he was better in 4 to 6 weeks.

I have another boy who is older and I had his hips x-rayed again by the so called top ortho in my area. He came back from OFA Mild HD. I had his x-rays redone 9 months later by a different vet and resubmitted them this time he came back excellent. You need to use your own judgment and can't just take the word of one vet. I have learned and I am lucky, I did not make any hasty decisions about either of my boys from just one vet or OFA opinion.

After knowing OFA has been incorrect several times with my dogs and others I went on a mission to try to find the answer to your question. We have other choices.

I used OFA, OCD, PennHip, DIMPLO and did CT and MRI scans and also BVA Scheme. I am very happy with BVA and will continue using them. You get a numerical grade per elbow or hip and that is very useful to me.

I was just having this conversation with one of the bigger GB breeders and it was her opinion that after generations and generations of doing clearances there has been no reduction in instances.

What do we do? Dog doesn't limp so breed it and dog limps so don't? You would hope it would be a bit more scientific than that but it sure doesn't seem that way to me.

As a side note, being a stud owner I have and will continue to accept a board certified radiologist's written evaluation of a bitch's hips and elbows stating they are not dysplastic, as well as clearances from OFA. Same with eyes. Just need the exam form stating eyes are normal within one year.

Warrantees on dogs are up to each individual. Even if you don't warrantee elbows, I believe that you should offer some kind of remedy (make it within your own personal parameters) if the dog ends up having to have legitimate surgery.

Orthopedic specialists are usually pretty good at telling whether or not a dog has FCP while doing a physical exam...at least good ones are. But they will be the first to tell you that OFA x-rays seldom show the truth.

I had a 5 month old puppy with clinical lameness pass OFA on elbows and the next month went in and had bilateral surgery. FCP in both elbows. Bad.

OFA is a tool that is only as good as your vet's ability get good positioning to actually SEE FCP or other problems and the fact that one view is usually simply not enough to diagnose FCP on a dog who doesn't have arthritic changes yet. It is very hard to see unless the positioning is exact or several views are done by someone who knows how to do that.

This is why we have so many elbow problems. We are "using" OFA as our "proof" that our dog's are not affected when some really are. I also had a 12 year old dog go in for some chest x-rays once and incidentally found out he had FCP. Never would have known without those x-rays...he was a CDX dog and never lame (in my mind) in the front.

Blaming OFA is not the answer. It is our responsibility to DO NO HARM. We can't rely on OFA as our black and white answer. It just isn't that simple. Know your pedigree. Know what you produce. Ask questions and LISTEN to the answers. Understand that your puppy buyers sometimes don't notice lameness when it presents or that if they do see it, it is probably because of a genetic problem. Don't stick your head in the sand or we will never have a hardy breed like labs should be. BE HONEST. Share honestly with other breeders. Own up to problems when they occur and bite the bullet. Be fair to your puppy buyers who are the very ones who make it possible for us to do what we do.

OFA is not 100% reliable. They don't claim to be. It's a tool for us to use....along with our own knowledge and research. If you breed solely for OFA clearances you may breed other problems into your line....OCD and Cruciate problems to name two.

Your warrantee isn't nearly as important as what you do in your breeding program when a problem arises. And no, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater either. Weigh everything. Breed for better. Not better in the show ring or field.....breed for better dogs. I don't care what your venue is... breed for soundness in mind and body. Above all else.

I have not guaranteed hips or elbows or eyes, or anything else for several years.

I feel like my job is to screen fo hereditary diseases & do my best to produce healthy labradors. I do not know what happens to the dog after he or she leaves my house.

What everyone needs to know is that breeders are not God. Sometimes stuff happens, and it does even in the human world.

However, if a freaky problem does show up, I have learned it is best for everyone to give a refund on the price of the puppy. Depending on the situation, I may give 50% refund or 100% refund.

Peace has got to be worth something.

Sorry, first of all, have not seen the "letter" from Dr. Keller saying he does not stand behind OFA. Possibly the OP is paraphrasing and misunderstood? I think we all deserve to see that statement, on OFA leterhead stationary, if it exists.
Secondly, it is true, xrays can "lie" and going into the joint, while very invasive, is a superior alternative to xrays most of the time. If the xrays say normal elbows and the dog is limping, arthroscopy is most likely indicated.
Thirdly, OFA is not Dr. Keller's program, but is the culmination of 40 years of research and results,and has virtually eliminated hereditary diseases in some breeds. It's all we have, other than PennHip for hips, and know that three different independent radiologists have to view these xrays and come to a consensus for an OFA result. Dr. Keller just oversees the program.
Fourth, I don't trust anybody anymore, and I always ask to see veterinary corroboration of any diagnosis.

Robin,

I was not paraphrasing or misunderstanding. Dr Keller said it is on their literature. I would be happy to share the letter being you deserve it. I dont know how to attach it here. Can you please explain how to attach on this forum. Thanks in advance.............