We have someone who's dog doesn't seem to cycle at all...one that cycles too frequently, yet both want to breed their bitches.

Did we ever think that maybe nature is sending up a big old sign that we just don't bother reading...if you can't get the girl pregnant without all the tests and hocus pocus, maybe they aren't meant to be bred? Are these bitches really the best specimen of their breed if they are not able to breed easily? Flip side, all your bitches need c-sections. We don't have bulldogs here, labs should be free and easy whelpers.

Are we hurting our breed by ignoring these signs?

Yes.

I bred a bitch and she conceived 12 puppies. She could not deliver all of them and after losing 5 we sectioned to get the rest. Beautiful puppies. And I bred her a second time with the same result. That did it. She is spayed. I placed the daughter that I kept because I don't need to have this happen again. And I wouldn't wish it on anyone else either. If I had any sense, I would never have bred her the second time.

Not only do we do the dogs a disservice, we do ourselves a disservice as well.

In the whole scheme of things - I don't think it matters if we want to continue breeding the line, that we do things to enable the bitches to become pregnant and have c-sectons.

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you wrote, are you saying the LINE is more important that easy whelpers?

It is not a disservice. Why can't we look at as each are an individual. Even women are not all built the same and some need c-sections. Are we really expecting every bitch to have the same perfect uterius? I think this is where we would be asking to much. This is not a world of perfect anatomy. Now if you have a bitch who you know if you bred her, it was a danger to her health then don't breed her. There needs to be a balance don't be selffish. Use good judgment and make the right choices for the dogs and breeding program.

With all the hoops these dogs have to jump through now with clearances, if I had a bitch who passed hip and elbows, passed echo doppler heart, PRA clear, EIC clear, RD/OSD clear, CMN clear, no allergies, good temperment, good mother, excellent representation of the breed, I am certainly not going to scrap her just because she needed a c-section!

You would think different if your bitch would be a champion or your beloved pet. Don't you?

Amen.

Guess I didn't make myself clear. This bitch conceived huge litters and she COULD NOT deliver them herself. Period. She is still here and not going anywhere.

How do you know I am not? I am not concerned with c-sections that are required due to emergency. But if you have a bitch with narrow hips where she can't pass pups, or some of the other many reason, it seems many are very concerned that they have to breed come Heck or High Water. She's a Champion, by doG, I MUST breed her or else.

Champion or no Champion, I think it's not right for us to continually breed bitches that can't get pregnant, so we screw with them until they can. Or they can't whelp, so we breed them and cut them open to get the pups.

Health is one thing, sacrificing the normal reproductive patterns of our breed are another. Don't liken it to humans and having childen. There are plenty of liberties taken there as well. But at least it's between a couple and their own free will. What we impose on our dogs is another.

And just because it's a CH or a beloved pet doesn't make a lick of difference.h8

If a bitch has a second c-section, she is retired. Will I breed her daughters? Most likely but will consider the circumstances of the c-sections. If I think the tendency to not be able to whelp is being passed from one generation to the next, I will end the line.

Amen!! I know of several bad whelpers whose daughters have been fine. Whelped with no problems. I know of two bad whelpers whose second litters were easy-peasy.

The really bad ones always end up weeding themselves out eventually.

IMO.....modern technology is here to be utilized. Why not utilize it? Funny to me that the folks touting every single clearance known to man are also the ones asking breeders to scrap bitches who cycle too often or not at all.

Being a breeder these days means that we walk in a space between mother nature and science.

Edited to add: Your original post mentioned the two threads on here about unusual heat cycles. How is an unusual cycle mother nature saying not to breed that girl??? These heat cycles may confuse bitch OWNERS as to when to begin progesterone testing or requesting semen, but I guarantee that the studs aren't fooled. If these bitches were running in a pack somewhere, the chances are they would get bred.

For me, mother nature saying no is when you can't get a bitch pregnant despite clear signs of ovulation, good semen, and perfect timing. Those breeders who do surgical breedings with great semen and still may only have 2 or 3 pups by section.

A c-section here or there doens't phase me.

We all have to be comfortable dancing in our own space. Don't tell me where to dance, and I won't tell you where to dance either.

I am of the opinion that a bitch should be a an easy natural whelper, of course a c-section is done if needed and I won't hesitate to get one done. But I Do agree with you, we are doing the breed a huge disservice. When you have breeders doing multiply c-sections on a bitch ( 6 or more), yes I do know of a well known breeder/judge who has done this, who breeds constanly, ( 4 or 5 litters on the ground at the same time etc) I think there are many problems facing our breed to day, but unfortunitly the biggest problem this breed faces is us the breeders. Some be come blind by their own self importance and believe their own press. For the most part most breeders care deeply about maintaining the breed as healthy working dogs, some however care deeply about the almighty dollar and there in lies the problem.

I agree, also the longer some of those breeders are "at the dance", the bigger their dance floor will get.

I agree with the last 3 messages. I don't care how many titles, Ch. great pedigree, two C-section is it.
Yes, they can carry pups but if they are too narrow and some are, to have them, I am not going for a third.
If we care about this breed we will think twice about what we are doing. And anyone who breeds a female that many times is sure not in love with her dogs. Believe me I don't think her dog is that special. And I have no idea who it is. There are plenty of Labs in this world. Nice ones.