Would you breeders share your thoughts, please, on breeding to a dog who is PRA "Clear by Parentage"?

I am getting ready to breed my beautiful BISS bitch, who is a carrier. I love this boy, but I'm not sure I want to trust the "clear by parentage" designation.

Thanks for your advice.

Absolutely. I have bred to several clear by parentage dogs.

Why not trust the "clear by parentage" designation??

If the breeding is really important to you, you can always ask the stud dog owner to test or offer to pay for a test. I would. All tests have error.

I would never breed to a dog that is listed as "PRA Clear by Parentage." If the owner wants to charge $800-1500 to use the dog, it should have its own clearances. Asking the bitch owners to pony up money to use the dog when the stud owner hasn't paid for the basic clearances is insulting. It gives the impression that the stud owner thinks s/he can disregard the basic guidelines breeders trust. If the testing was done on the parents at Optigen, it only costs $95 to get the dog a test and certificate of his own. If the testing was done by Ingen, I wouldn't trust it anyway

Rule 1: Don't do business with people you don't trust.

I have bred a PRA clear to PRA clear and have no intention of testing the children. They are clear. I believe in the Optigen test, have lost a few wonderful dogs because of the results and if I believe it enough to let some go, I better believe in it enough to keep the others whose parents are clear. I am not testing "clear by parentage" .

As long as you are not asking others to endorse your opinion with THEIR money, I think that is great! Stud dogs, however, should have their own clearances so that their offspring can have the chance to be "clear by parentage" as well. The cost is small compared to a stud fee AND the offspring from clear bitches can then get the low-price test and clearance for the next generation. People who breed to a "clear by parentage" dog need to consider the additional cost in the stud service for testing offspring at full price

Maureen...you always have the answers. I would trust a dog with clear by parentage (you can verify the parents are clear) , before I would breed a dog with a poor temperament or that has never been in the ring .

I would not breed my carrier to a "clear by parentage". I've heard to two instances lately where when DNA was sent in to AKC, the parentage was wrong (the father was not the father). When I stand a stud dog, I do the Optigen test even when both parents are clear. I feel it's only the right thing to do. JMO

The question is about stud dogs. Why would you pay money to breed to any of these? It is not a "either or" question. It is about spending your money to breed to a dog when the owner has not made the same investment for testing that you have. I think it is arrogant to ask bitch owners to pay for expensive testing on the offspring because the stud owner doesn't test the dog. It is pretty simple when you look at it from a financial standpoint.

Anyone who doesn't understand genetics enough to insist on testing on a dog for the PRA gene, when neither of its parents carry the PRA gene, shouldn't be breeding in the first place.

And if your response is to question the test, then for heaven's sake why would you insist on another test?

Testing for testing's sake isn't going to make the dog any more clear.

If you can't trust "clear by parentage", you shouldn't trust the test.

I have a clear by parentage dog, but I opted to get him tested, so I have proof of his status, not only for bitch owners, but for puppy buyers as well. I figured I'd appreciate it if I were in their shoes.

Its not just matter of trusting the test... There was some data I read recently, (maybe it was the LQ?) that suggested there a certain percentage of registered dogs whose parentage is incorrect when they are DNA tested. There can be whoopsies, mis-breedings, the incorrect semen shipped, the kids let the girl in season out with an unintended male, etc etc... I test my girls, I would like to know for sure the status of the stud dog as well. Not to be anal, but if my girl were a carrier, I would want to be darn sure the boy was in fact clear. The risk outweighs the benefit of accepting a clear by parentage in this instance, how would you feel if you found out your litter had affecteds in it later on?
JMHO

Oldtimer wrote: "I think that is great! Stud dogs, however, should have their own clearances so that their offspring can have the chance to be "clear by parentage" as well."

So why should the stud dog have their own clearances if it doesn't truly result in clear by parentage offspring? According to your verbage here, the offspring wouldn't be clear unless they have their own clearances themselves. If you can't trust the clear by parentage of the sire or dam, you can't trust the clear by parentage of the offspring.

20 year breeder wrote: "I've heard to two instances lately where when DNA was sent in to AKC, the parentage was wrong (the father was not the father)."

Okay. Fair enough. So not only can the testing be inaccurate, but also the parentage itself?? So what does it matter then if you are wondering if your litter has clear by parentage, when they may not even have the parentage that is claimed?

GEESH! We have a system, and it's not trustworthy so why have the system?

I will keep and advertise Clear By Parentage myself. While those quotes above are your own opinions, this is mine. I pay for the test of the parents to ensure i don't have to test the next generation down. If I'm going to not trust the test, then I should be suspicious that just maybe, I do not have a true pedigree either.
So then what?? I do DNA? Is that trustworthy even?

I think if you love a stud dog, clear by parentage, and you own the bitch, it is your business if you want to use that stud dog. If he's right in every way...why not. Maybe his "Carrier" status isn't really true either? Maybe OFA mixed up the films and sent my results to you, or yours to me? Maybe my wife brought the wrong dog to the vet for the films in the first place and my vet didn't really scan the chip or verify the tattoo. Maybe maybe maybe...
When we lose trust in one tool, we can suspect error in all our other tools just the same. Where then, do we go from there?

Recently used a stud listed simply as 'PRA Clear' on the breeder's website. When copies of all the clearances were sent to me, I did not receive a copy from Optigen for that stud, but rather a copy of the stud's sire's PRA normal results and a copy of the stud's mom's PRA normal results. I'm sure stud is clear, but it did seem a bit lazy on the stud owner's part not to have direct results for this frequently used boy.

You have completely misconstrued my post. Any dog that has both parents tested clear is "clear by parentage" If a CBP male is used at stud, his offspring will NOT be CBP - follow the logic - because one parent is NOT tested clear. For me it is not as much the idea that I can't "trust" that a CBP dog is really clear. It is that I think the OWNER can not be trusted if offering the dog at stud for money knowing that none of the offspring can be CBP. It is the MOTIVES of the owner that I do not trust - money and ego above any concern for the breed or those using the stud dog.

I hope this explains my objection to standing CBP dogs at stud...you are asking others to pay for the privilege of having to test all the offspring at FULL price because you are too cheap to pay the $95 fee to get the stud dog his own certificate!!! Is that clear enough?????????
"Cheap, Cheap"

I agree with test the stud dogs. I want to see the optigen on the stud dogs I use. Clear by Parentage is fine on most, but you are right if am paying $1,000 and at that price you know alot of others must be, then they can afford to do it, just assure us. My boy is CBP, but if anyone when he is old enough wants to use him, I will test him. I want them to feel good about all the experience of breeding to my dog. I hate games. So the same goes for CBP for EIC, I bet

I would breed to a dog that is "Clear By Parentage" if the "Clear by Parentage" classification is based on the result of a DNA test - yes, two dogs that are PRA clear will only produce clears, but only if they are indeed the parents.

If "you" breed dominant black to dominant black would you test to see if the offspring carried color? How is this different?

Color does not impact the health of the dog, so I really would not care. However,it is the same thing from a genetic perspective - all of the puppies would be dominant black only if the parents are who one thinks they are.

slightly off topic, but where is there a 95.00 test ?

From the optigen.com website:

Normal x Normal or Normal x Affected Discounts: For tests on dogs whose parents have both been tested at OptiGen and who are not Carriers. Price of testing is reduced to $95 for prcd-PRA and CEA, all other tests are reduced to $75, with the exception of NCL-A. See Normal to Normal Application or Normal to Affected Application for further information on these discount options.

I bred to a stud-dog this year that was clear by parentage for PRA. He had all other testing done that I was comfortable with including an echo doppler. The reason I did it without asking, I know the breeder and trust her. She has been breeding for many, many years and the bitch line was generations of her own breedings. The sire of the stud-dog has been used many 100's of times and is owned by another long time breeder I trust.

I would not have done the same if working with someone I didn't know or trust as well as this breeder.

It depends on who you're working with and how much you trust them. JMHO.

Oldtimer, your link is incorrect but your information is correct about the $95 fee for a Normal to Normal testing.

For those that want the link to the $95 Normal to Normal testing;

http://www.optigen.com/opt9_normaltonormal.html

Also, off topic; any *affected* dog will be tested for free and;

*Choose online submission and receive a 5% discount!*

Oops! I failed to put the entire address in the link, so it was not handled as I anticipated. Sorry. The link was supposed to be to the primary optigen.com website.

As to the online discount: it does not apply to the non-carrier $95 tests. You have to use the long paper form and provide copies of test reports. Also, if you choose online submission for any regular testing, you can save 25% right now. The special runs out tomorrow. You have a month to send in the sample, but can save on the tests by ordering them today.

I do wonder if the OP is a little concerned that perhaps the stud dog doesn't have the parents stated. There would be more than one dog out there that was the result of a mis mating that wasn't either known by the breeder or was but not DNA tested. We have recently imported a boy who is PRA clear by parentage, but his parents have never been tested, his grandparents on both side were all tested clear, so his parents are PRA clear by parentage which makes him also clear. This to us is too far back, yes as one poster said clear is clear and no ammount of testing will change that, however we just felt that we spent a lot of money on this boy what was one more reletivly cheap test.( he is now tested clear) We do like to give out all parents paper work to puppy buyers, and I always advise puppy buyers to ask to see original paperwork when looking at a litter. More to the point if the OP has some feeling that PRA clear by parentage of the boy she is looking at using is dodgy, then I think that is the answer to her question.

I think a lot of people go overboard on this. Unless you do not trust the stud dog owner and suspect he/she is lying or stupid, clear by parentage should be fine. On the other hand, if you distrust the test itself, why would anyone test in the first place? I know people are saying accidents can happen. Well, I think the odds are very, very much against that. Sort of like obsessing about falling off the platform in the subway.

From the AKC Secretary's Page for May.
"During the month of March the DNA
program resulted in the correction of 252 litter
registrations, affecting 370 registered dogs."

I don't think 370 people fall from subway platorms every month.

How about thinking he/she is cheap, opportunistic and inconsiderate? That certainly affects my ability to trust someone! When the parents have aleady been cleared and you can get the dog his own certification for $95, it just sort of seems to be a "no-brainer" to get it done with the first stud fee. Hmmmm.... maybe I would consider the stud dog owner "stupid" after all. Good point!

It amazes me that our dogs have even survivored the stupidity of you people. A clear by parentage is that if you breed to a dog that is not clear then you test the get but it is complete stupidity to think that a dog or bitch owner is wrong for not testing the dog whose parents are clear and its a way for the company to get an extra unnecessary $95 out of your stupidity. You just keep wasting your money but I will not. I can't believe that it does not bother you that the dogs parentage isn't correct
That would be more my concern not whether a dog whose are clear. I would breed to any dog who I like, I like what he has produced and has good bitch lines behind.

Your attitude is alarming...

(a) because I know FOR A FACT that there are dogs out there being bred with incorrect pedigrees. That's right! One dog I know of carries a color that neither parent carried and has passed it on. No one seems to care because they assume the bitch that produced him carried the color in question. I know for a fact that she didn't. This dog's parentage is flat out wrong.

(b) I also had a good friend recently whose dominant black stud dog had a yellow pup appear when bred to a By bitch. Only one pup out of a litter of 6 wasn't black, but it proved that another dog sired the litter. Subsequent DNA tests proved that the assumed sire was not the actual sire of the litter. If not for that one pup, or if the other sire had been dominant black, no one would have been the wiser.

Both are EXCELLENT examples of why testing both parents doesn't amount to a hill of beans unless the pups are DNA tested against both parents first, which very few do. This is why Optigen has a Clear by Parentage TEST. To verify. Not necessarily the test, but the parentage.

Just do the Clear by Parentage test Optigen offers and quit tossing insults around to people who want to be certain before breeding their carriers to an untested dog.

To echo your rudeness above, I think breeders like you, who happily breed to incorrect paper with their heads in the sand shouldn't be breeding in the first place.

Trust and VERIFY!

Honest mistakes happen all the time when a dog is around a bitch in season.

As Forest Gump said, "Stupid is as stupid does." That $95 to get a CBP dog tested and certified is money well spent for several reasons. First, it assures that the dog really IS clear. If it is not, then there is good reason to question the parentage!!!
Second, it allows those who use the tested clear dog to also get half-price testing on any offspring who are from non-carrier dams.
As Gump suggested, judge stupidity by one's actions. It is clearly not a smart choice to refuse to get a half-price test to ASSURE the status (and probably parentage) of the dog while providing a future financial service to anyone who uses the dog. If you don't do it for the breed and out of consideration for those using the stud dog, then do it because it is good PR. It makes you look like you give a whit about the breed, the dogs and each other. Chalk it up to the cost of advertising your stud dog

I've said it before - I will not breed my carrier bitch to a dog who is "clear by parentage". I've had PRA affected dogs and I won't take the chance. If you're a stud dog owner and get one extra breeding because you spend $95.00 it seems well with it. JMHO

Optigen does not recognize "clear by parentage" beyond the first generation offspring. So given that, let me ask you (Rule #2 and JMO) - considering the cost of testing the CBP stud dog for $95, and testing the offspring for $95 as opposed to roughly double that, would you test the stud dog if he were bred to your own bitch? You could then test the puppies for the cheaper rate. Or would you not do that, and willingly (stupidly?) volunteer yourself to pay twice as much to test your own puppies? Assuming your answer is that you would test the stud dog, why on earth don't you offer bitch owners the same opportunity by testing your CBP stud dog? I've been in this a LONG time, and consider the Optigen test to be a real gift and just don't understand not doing a $95 test. Makes me wonder if you do echoes on your dogs, or do you make due with auscultation because its cheaper and OFA will accept it. But that's a whole other disussion....