Labrador Retriever Forum
I have done a search on the forum and I can't find the thread of what you could get when you breed an EIC carrier to a clear. Can someone please let me know how it works again. If you breed an EIC clear to a carrier what is the "most likely" result of the EIC status of the puppies? Some clear and some carriers? All clear, all carriers?
Thanks.
You will get 50% clear and 50% carrier by stats
See this link at the Univ. of Minn.
ttp://www.vdl.umn.edu/prod/groups/cvm/@pub/@cvm/@vdl/documents/asset/cvm_asset_107687.pdf
Thanks for the info. I can't seem to get the link to work.
Carrier X Clear mating
chance of producing a Clear= 50%
chance of producing a Carrier= 50%
http://www.vetdnacenter.com/canine-exercise-induced-collapse.html
Each puppy has a 50% chance of being clear, and a 50% chance of being a carrier. You will not get any affecteds. But, because the "odds" are for each puppy, it is possible to get all carriers, or all clears, or any combination in between. The 50% chance is not for the litter, but for each pup.
This EIC thing seems to be the ultimate sham. Unlike PRA, affecteds may never get a symptom and affected to affected breedings may never produce an affected. How did this EIC scare get started anyway? Someone has to be benefiting financially from this. In the 30+ years I have been involved with the showing and breeding Labradors, is it really statistically possible that I and people I know have just been 'lucky' that I (we) have never bred or had EIC - EVER! This EIC thing doesn't pass the smell test for me.
Malignant Hyperthermia is not a sham condition. It happens in humans and other species-and it is often fatal. EIC is a similar phenomenon and the genes that are responsible seem to have been isolated. It only makes sense to use this tool to prevent breeding animals that could be affected.
It is so well said.
We now see people not breeding labradors , they breed an EIC to another EIC.....So ridiculus!
In 30 years of breeding I have never seen one of my labs collapsed. What a big problem! and what a great test!
We now see people not breeding labradors , they breed an EIC to another EIC.....So ridiculus!
In 30 years of breeding I have never seen one of my labs collapsed. What a big problem! and what a great test!
I have an Affected boy that has had one episode, barely collapsed, but enough of an incident to have me run him into the shade, cool him off, hydrate and rest him. After that episode, which he recovered from in 1/2 hour, I wondered if he was Affected. He had not yet been tested at that time. Folks were JUST started to talking about EIC at this time. He happened to have a vet appointment the next day for something else, and the vet really didn't know much about EIC and suspected heat exhaustion, which based on the incident would have been most folks guess as well. But because of everyone talking about it, I spent the $58 and tested. And sure enough Affected. Over 2 years later, I have not put this dog in the same situation again yet he actively trains for hunting and obedience. Other than me being aware and careful about putting him in hot exhausting situations, he leads a normal VERY ACTIVE life. He's a titled front and back with a nice pedigree and clearances.
I would love folks to consider him, but they don't.
Because of that I do agree that we should not be focusing on just ONE clearance and throwing fine dogs out because of this one test. But I do think it's short-sighted to not take advantage of the test and at least KNOW.
Maybe you are lucky and don't have it in your lines. I did my tests that time combined with a friend and I was very sad when I had a Carrier and an Affected while all her dogs were Clear (different lines).
It's a pretty cheap test comparatively speaking, worth it to just KNOW. At least to me.
And I have never personally had a dog affected by dysplasia, or one affected by PRA. Does this mean I don't 'do the test' for these conditions because I believe that 'someone' is benefitting financially from these tests? Are they shams?
This 'EIC scare' got started because of a researcher/veterinarian who just happened to breed and trial Labradors. When a dog they owned, who was a very titled and well-known trial dog in Canada, started collapsing, Sue Taylor decided to get to the bottom of this problem in the breed.
And I guess statistically, you must be lucky. You seem to be running on rumors. Those that chose to use the EIC test as a tool and to gain knowledge are looking at this from a different angle than you are. Just because YOU haven't seen a dog affected with this condition doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just ask someone who HAS seen it.
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It is so expensive to do research, that I don't believe that the research is being researched!!!!
I believe that if every breeder would test and be upfront about the results and all the pups produced by all the Labs clear, affected or in between were tested and the results were published. Then all dogs followed throughout their lives to see who collapsed and what their EIC status was then and only then will I respect and worry about the test. Yes, I have read and re-read the study and all resulting EIC publications I could find. Down the road there will be another study that finds that the "EIC" affected really had a different common trait that was really responsible for the very FEW Labs that have been reported to have collapsed! Folks come on, look at those pedigrees of affected Labs, they have been used to death, there had to have been a hugh number of affected dogs being bred to other affected dogs, so why are the Vets not up in arms screaming about all the collapsing Labs? Beat me up, I know I don't have "published" science behind my thoughts, just a bit of logic.
quote=LONGTIME BREEDER]This EIC thing seems to be the ultimate sham. Unlike PRA, affecteds may never get a symptom and affected to affected breedings may never produce an affected. How did this EIC scare get started anyway? Someone has to be benefiting financially from this. In the 30+ years I have been involved with the showing and breeding Labradors, is it really statistically possible that I and people I know have just been 'lucky' that I (we) have never bred or had EIC - EVER! This EIC thing doesn't pass the smell test for me.[/quote]
Perhaps you are lucky or perhaps you are the one who isn't breeding (real) labs-- you know, the ones that can (and do) actually work in the field. EIC is a real problem for REAL labs and their breeders.
My husband nearly died because of Malignant Hyperthermia (never happened to him before and not since). While not the same condition that our collapsing Labradors suffer from-it is similar in that it is a state where the body overheats to the point where it can't cool itself and without intensive intervention DEATH is likely. In people this a heritable condition as well. I wish I could test our children like I can my dogs. This is a truly frightening condition That doesn't have to occur frequently to be fatal.
We now see people not breeding labradors , they breed an EIC to another EIC.....So ridiculus!
In 30 years of breeding I have never seen one of my labs collapsed. What a big problem! and what a great test!
You sound like one of the "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" breeders who think that people who do clearances and use the results as tools are somehow inferior breeders of inferior stock. Perhaps you are the breeder that knowingly bred 2 EIC carriers, and was pleased that only one in the litter was affected? Or the breeder that knows her stud dog has produced uncountable numbers of TVD affected dogs, yet denies it is a problem in her lines (blames the bitches)? Or maybe you are the big name breeder who consistently has bred bitches who have failed elbows, only to produce multiple pups with elbow dysplasia? Perhaps you have produced epilepsy, and have bred the affected bitch anyway, since she was stunningly gorgeous, and won specialties? Maybe you have a boatload of blind pups out in pet homes, because the Optigen test is a waste of time and money too, and in 30 years, you never had a blind dog( yeah right)? Or are you the one who saw your dog's hip xrays and knew he wouldn't pass, so you substituted another dog when doing his xrays? Or maybe it is as simple as your dogs are EIC carriers, so you doubt the test? Perhaps if your dogs came back non carriers, you would be raving over it? I really get tired of long time or short time breeders who somehow think that the stud dogs that are tested and have clearances, whether carrier or non carrier, are somehow inferior specimens. Why do you think it ridiculous for someone to not want to purposefully produce an EIC affected Labrador?
Some of you are probably tired of hearing this tale. I certainly am tired of repeating it. Yes, there are dogs that, given plenty of opportunity to collapse, have not done so. I know of a Master Hunter from show lines who had never collapsed. Before the test was available, a friend of mine with field lines bred to him expressly to avoid the EIC gene, which she knew was present in her own lines. The result was a litter with multiple collapsing dogs. They could not be hunted or trained in the field as the owners had expected when they bought them. The sire was then tested and found to be affected genetically. At this time, at least, he had never collapsed. So even if these dogs that are somehow protected from the effects of the dynamin1 mutation are not collapsing themselves, they can produce dogs that collapse.
Why did it show up seemingly out of the blue? There are several factors involved. One is the incomplete penetrance of the gene. There probably are several things required for collapse. One is the dynamin1 mutation. Another is the requirement of a threshold of excitement and/or physical stress which some dogs, because of their life style and/or a calm temperament, may never reach. There may be other genes or environmental situations contributing to collapse.
Another factor is the fact that the condition can be confused with other problems. I witnessed what i now believe to be an EIC collapse at a hunt test at least 15 years ago. The dog collapsed on a warm day after a JH land series. No other dogs were overly stressed that I know of. We all assumed it was heat prostration brought about because the dog was stressed by bitches in season at home. The reason I think it was EIC is that the dog visited a vet after his collapse and was pronounced fit enough to complete the test with the water series that afternoon. That would be a very rapid recovery from heat prostration, but quite possible with EIC. So it's probably been around for a long time but thought to be seizures or heat stroke.
The final reason why it suddenly seems to be everywhere is because in both the field lines and the show lines some of the most highly regarded sires in the last 20 years were carriers. These dogs were bred many times before their carrier status was known. They produced wonderfully well, and the EIC mutation became widely distributed in both populations. The people who got on the ball, recognized the problem and developed this test may be making some money from this, but they also assured that we could benefit from the good qualities these great sires gave to our dogs and still avoid the one problem they helped to disseminate.
EIC is easy to deal with. Just make sure one parent in every breeding is EIC clear. Affected dogs can be used safely as long as one is willing to accept that all the offspring of such a dog will be carriers and must be bred to clears. By testing puppies and choosing a clear from the grandkids, one can go from an affected dog to a clear in two generations without producing any symptomatic dogs. Or one can keep a carrier if it is the stand-out puppy and breed IT to a clear. Compared to some of the other problems we face as breeders, this one is easy.
Yet, no one can answer why we do not have dogs collapsing left and right! As you stated there are thousands of puppies produced from well known carrier or affected dogs over the last 30 or more years. There would have to be thousands of affected out there. I test to please those that want to use my dogs but that does not in any way indicate that I trust that we really have the answer, time will tell. I would love to know if any one has a clear Lab that has demonstrated the same type of collapse.
Why did it show up seemingly out of the blue? There are several factors involved. One is the incomplete penetrance of the gene. There probably are several things required for collapse. One is the dynamin1 mutation. Another is the requirement of a threshold of excitement and/or physical stress which some dogs, because of their life style and/or a calm temperament, may never reach. There may be other genes or environmental situations contributing to collapse.
Another factor is the fact that the condition can be confused with other problems. I witnessed what i now believe to be an EIC collapse at a hunt test at least 15 years ago. The dog collapsed on a warm day after a JH land series. No other dogs were overly stressed that I know of. We all assumed it was heat prostration brought about because the dog was stressed by bitches in season at home. The reason I think it was EIC is that the dog visited a vet after his collapse and was pronounced fit enough to complete the test with the water series that afternoon. That would be a very rapid recovery from heat prostration, but quite possible with EIC. So it's probably been around for a long time but thought to be seizures or heat stroke.
The final reason why it suddenly seems to be everywhere is because in both the field lines and the show lines some of the most highly regarded sires in the last 20 years were carriers. These dogs were bred many times before their carrier status was known. They produced wonderfully well, and the EIC mutation became widely distributed in both populations. The people who got on the ball, recognized the problem and developed this test may be making some money from this, but they also assured that we could benefit from the good qualities these great sires gave to our dogs and still avoid the one problem they helped to disseminate.
EIC is easy to deal with. Just make sure one parent in every breeding is EIC clear. Affected dogs can be used safely as long as one is willing to accept that all the offspring of such a dog will be carriers and must be bred to clears. By testing puppies and choosing a clear from the grandkids, one can go from an affected dog to a clear in two generations without producing any symptomatic dogs. Or one can keep a carrier if it is the stand-out puppy and breed IT to a clear. Compared to some of the other problems we face as breeders, this one is easy.
Are you really serious?
Doesn't the bigger sham perhaps occur when someone blindly produces and sells an EIC affected pup when all along they had the tool to avoid the situation altogether?
From University of MN... "Most (>80%) affected Labradors (E/E: 2 copies of the mutation) experience at least one episode of collapse by the time they are 4 years of age. A few genetically affected (E/E) dogs never exhibit collapse, perhaps because they do not engage in the required strenuous activity with extreme excitement as required to produce collapse. DNA testing is the only way to know for certain whether a dog has EIC." http://www.vdl.umn.edu/ourservices/canineneuromuscular/eic/taylor2008/home.html
Of course someone is benefitting financially from DNA testing, this isn't communist Russia... and breeders get the benefit of the service. Exchanging a product or service for money is not a sham unless the product or service is represented as something more valuable than what is delivered. The EIC test is certainly not even close to being a sham. It's a very useful, inexpensive and ACCURATE tool for avoiding the production of EIC affected offspring.
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There are none so blind as those who do not want to see!!
Peggy, I never get tired of reading your excellent posts!
I would be interested in how many people were sampled to come up with those statistics and when it was done? I too have never seen, or heard of it in our dogs during these 30+ years. There are certainly carriers and I am sure they likely had been bred to other carriers or even affected dogs over the years before we even knew about this disease. So where are the collapsing dogs? I agree that it just doesn't add up.
A LOT. Contact Katie Minor at U of MN if you want the stats. In fact, I bet if you did a little online research, the numbers are right there on the U of MN VDL page.
I did check! The numbers are so so small when compared to the population. They can't even get an affected dog to collapse most of the time. There is so much more to this story. When we get a big research project that takes on the UM Study and resulting information I think a few more folks will open their eyes and agree this is not the full story. I wish so much that everyone that reads this that had a Lab that collapsed and was actually checked and is affected would publish their names and the dogs name. If not it is just not fact, anyone can come on here and say my dog collapsed.
I think they have been calling it something else. . . malignant hyperthermia.
But please everyone, don't freak out even if you get an affected dog. Just breed around the problem; that is the beauty of the test.
And, that goes for stud dogs too. . . although I don't know if the outside public would use your dog too much.
For starters, go to OFA and Labradata and do a search on EIC Affected labs. Maybe contact those owners to see if they believe or not. The reason vets don't know much about it is that the symptoms only last 15-20 minutes on average, so it's often misdiagnosed as a "seizure" or something.
And as for tossing very nice, oftentimes accomplished sires and dams, under the bus, I'm not willing to do that outside of publishing my own EIC carriers and clears for breeding purposes. My personal collapser (and I may have another from a totally different breeding pair by the looks of it-- I've offered to pay for the test) are from finished CH studs btw, one of whom is bred/owned by a vet who still "doesn't believe" in the test.
We've only had the test commercially available a couple years now and look at how many still have their heads in the sand on the issue?
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Use some more logic, here, then. Vets aren't screaming about all the collapsing Labs they see because they (the vast majority of them ) aren't even aware of EIC. People who are seriously involved in trialing, showing, and breeding are the ones knowledgeable about it. The majority aren't even aware of something as common in our breed as 'cold tail' - they want to amputate a broken tail when they think they see it!
Vets aren't screaming about all the other genetic conditions they see in ANY breeds; the majority of their patients are mutts, for starters. And they don't even deal exclusively with DOGS, either. Vets don't care about the clearances we do unless they are breeder vets - and their breed may not be Labradors.
Different breeds have different health concerns, and there are a lot of different breeds. Why would you expect vets to worry about EIC? They are there to treat disease, not worry about the genetics behind it. They see a dog brought in because it collapsed, they assume it's related to something common to many breeds - heat, epilepsy, heart, toxins, etc.
Look at all sides of an issue; it's not hard to figure out why EIC isn't in any vets' spotlight!
When I brought a couple of my labs to my vet to get blood collected for EIC tests, it was the first he had heard about it. But after he researched it, he called one of his patients in to have their lab tested for it, and he came back affected. My vet was happy to learn something new, and the owner of that lab was so happy for a diagnosis!
For starters, go to OFA and Labradata and do a search on EIC Affected labs. Maybe contact those owners to see if they believe or not. The reason vets don't know much about it is that the symptoms only last 15-20 minutes on average, so it's often misdiagnosed as a "seizure" or something.
And as for tossing very nice, oftentimes accomplished sires and dams, under the bus, I'm not willing to do that outside of publishing my own EIC carriers and clears for breeding purposes. My personal collapser (and I may have another from a totally different breeding pair by the looks of it-- I've offered to pay for the test) are from finished CH studs btw, one of whom is bred/owned by a vet who still "doesn't believe" in the test.
If it is no big deal and so easy to breed around then why not put the names of affected - collapsing dogs out for us all to see. I have seen two videos of the same dogs collapsing with thousands and thousands of Labs out there that have to be affected! If I had one I would video and put it out there for the world to see! There is power in numbers, make believers out of us. Chicken little went around screaming the sky was falling, everyone believed that for a while. I agree with those that are not afraid to buck the science and say that there is so much more for what is going on with these "collapsing" dogs.
We've only had the test commercially available a couple years now and look at how many still have their heads in the sand on the issue?
I have a bitch who collapsed with symptoms exactly as they describe for EIC. I tested her for EIC and she came back affected. I tested her sister who came back as a carrier.
Next week I am writing a big fat check to a stud owner who has tested her male who is clear. There are a bunch of other stud owners who could have been getting the big fat check. Some people have better business sense than others I guess.
We now see people not breeding labradors , they breed an EIC to another EIC.....So ridiculus!
In 30 years of breeding I have never seen one of my labs collapsed. What a big problem! and what a great test!
These numbers were posted by Katie Minor (U of MN) April 28, 2011 on RTF
Labradors (all tested, research and VDL):
Clear - 9637 (54%)
Carrier - 6588 (36.9%)
Affected - 1627 (9.1%)
Total - 17,852
Boy, that's a high carrier and affected rate for an autosomal recessive mode of transmission and the infrequency of observed symptoms. I am puzzled.
Two things here - the rate of carriers/affected being higher have to do with people testing dogs they suspect have problems rather than a cross-section of the population. The other thing is that I still contend people dismiss the transient symptoms of a collapse as simply heat intolerance, or maybe don't see it at all. I know of 3 dogs I've bred that have collapsed for sure - one tested affected, the other 2 are pets out of 2 carrier parents (found carriers long after breeding careers over) - I'm assuming they are affected as it's now an obvious conclusion.
While I'm sure there are a lot of un-collapsed DNA affected dogs out there, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that they've never had a collapse episode as they are short and may happen when the dog is simply out playing in the yard.
It's out there - test for it and breed around the issue. It's NOT the worst problem in the breed, but we can breed around it and not produce more affecteds, so WHY NOT DO IT?????
I think that we will find that there is something else we need to add to the test - before we start to eliminate so many from the breeding programs. I know, I know, you can look for clears - but it's hard enough with all the other things we are looking for in a stud, to also get one that is clear.
I have tested 13 dogs - 7 are Carriers, 5 are Clear and 1 is affected. That's 54% Carriers, 39% Clear and 7.5% Affected.
I have been positive about the sic test,but these percentages scare me. They resemble the early marker test for PRA. The number of dogs tested is too large for sampling bias to have much effect on the percentages. I remain very puzzled.
Just a note: As far as I'm aware, the numbers from the UMN do NOT include dogs tested through DDC or InGen. I've seen many dogs tested through DDC especially (that's where we test), so I think those numbers from UMN may be a bit skewed. The only way they wouldn't be is if DDC & InGen were sharing their results with the UMN- which is unlikely. Also, as someone noted, a person is more likely to test if they already suspect a problem.
With just one reporting testing center of almost 18,000 Labs tested and 10% Affected can you imagine with the thousands and thousands of Labs out there with 10% of the population Affected how many Labs must collapse on the hour? I am sure that something else is going on here and we are all spending a ton of money for a test that is going to be proven to have very little to do with the "collapse". This is not just people that think they have a problem or have symptoms, I had all mine tested just to appeal to those wanting to breed to my studs. No affected but 50 % unrelated carriers. We will maybe at some point have an answer. As long as folks are reporting clears that collapse and affected that do not I will have to keep my head in the sand!
Labradors (all tested, research and VDL):
Clear - 9637 (54%)
Carrier - 6588 (36.9%)
Affected - 1627 (9.1%)
Total - 17,852
I think that you are wrong to conclude that people are only testing if they think they have a problem. My sample had nothing to do with what any of their other relatives were, regarding the test.
Also, I would think that the DDC would have the same ratio as the MN lab. Why would there by any difference?
I think a person is "more likely" to test if they think they have a problem which would skew the data. But eventually, everyone will test and the data will be better obviously.
Also, I would think that the DDC would have the same ratio as the MN lab. Why would there by any difference?
They have the data for clears who collapse too. It is out there and probably in this thread and I missed it. It is something like 98% of clears don't collapse and of those that do, most collapses are clearly not due to EIC. But I am sure someone who actually does know the data will comment.
But yes, there is probably more going on. Yes, not all affecteds will collapse. But nearly all clears will not collapse due to EIC.
Labradors (all tested, research and VDL):
Clear - 9637 (54%)
Carrier - 6588 (36.9%)
Affected - 1627 (9.1%)
Total - 17,852
Can someone point us to the actual posting of these stats (all I am finding is this info on another forum). All I have seen officially is 2-5% collapse in Labs on UofMN. I also wanted to look at the Chessies total. I saw one testing of a Chessie group and it found 3.73% affected (dogs at a trial) None of these affected have collapsed in the Chessie (Please not saying the whole study just those at this trial) The last stat I knew was 10,000+ tested Labs and 2-5% affected (which the study started with 225 affected dogs' blood samples- all those had collapsed.
