Would you keep the pick male puppy of your litter who is a top show prospect after you tested him for EIC and the results came back that he is a carrier?

Absolutely! That is the beauty of tests like the EIC and PRA tests! It makes it so you can include dogs in your breeding program that in the old days would have been black balled into oblivion! Use the tests for it's intended purpose! I have never excluded a stud dog based on Optigen or EIC results as long as my girls are clear.

I think you really need to look around and realize that many of the Top Stud Dogs right now are EIC Carriers.. so if that is your only reason for NOT keeping him then I would allow him to stay and mature.

Definitely!!!! You KNOW what you're dealing with so plan accordingly & enjoy your boy!!

NO

Yes!

Some studdog owners aren't even testing for EIC. I wish as many were doing echo dopplers that are testing for EIC. There's no comparison between the 2. A carrier is a carrier, not affected and would be bred to a clear. Simple.

Yes, I would and have.

But you have to ask yourself, are you keeping this puppy for yourself or for the stud fees he may generate. If the later you may be disappointed. If he works in to your plans then go for it.

Oh yes it is simple. Just use them for your clears.
B U T , plan to do just that , because nobody else will. It's ridiculous , I agree, but that is the name of the game at this time, it is all about this darn test. I know of a Ch. stud dog , used 50 times prior to the test, once tested, came back carrier, hasn't been used in 2 years. What a waste of a great dog. So , keep for yourself, not for anyone else.

Absolutely!! I have a EIC carrier boy, the son and grandson of two of the CHMH's. He's got two MH passes of his own, earning the first one when he was just 2 years old. With a little luck, he'll finish his MH title this season at just three years old and then go on to the show ring.

He's staying, EIC carrier or not. Not only is he handsome but he's a rock star when it comes to drive and marking ability. I think he certainly has something to contribute especially for someone who wants to beef up the field drive in their lines.

Remember, the point to all of this is not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Absolutely! No question!! Why would you not keep him?

To the OP...definately keep him. That is the beauty of having these tests...this is super easy to breed around.

To "And"...Really?? As long as my girl is clear, I am going to look for the best fit for her...regardless of his EIC status. In fact I am planning a breeding to a lovely boy who is a PRA AND an EIC carrier! Oh the horror!

Finally, a voice of reason! I would hope that bitch owners make their choice of stud dog on more than whether he is EIC clear. EIC status is just one small piece of the puzzle.

I'm keeping mine....he's OFA good, elbows clear, CNM, DM, PRA, RD/OSD, NARC, clear...and he's not going anywhere....he has other clearances courtesy of DDC's reduced prices for more than one test ($20 per test), and he's all clear for those, too. The only "strike" against him is he's an EIC carrier.
I'm not worried about whether anyone ever uses him. I tested him for me. I know what I am dealing with. He can be bred to an EIC clear, if that situation ever presents itself.
If you don't believe in the test, that's fine. Don't judge people who make breeding decisions based on their tests.
And if you don't think EIC is a big deal, that's fine, too. But owners of collapsing dogs probably wouldn't agree with you.

As more and more tests become available, there will be very few dogs who are clear for everything. The goal is not to eliminate carriers of recessive genes that are widespread in the breed but to avoid producing affected dogs. As we have opportunities to use carrier status as one criterion in our selection of breeding stock (for instance when you have two puppies of similar quality and are trying to decide between them) we may gradually reduce the frequency of the gene in the breed without losing the other qualities we want to keep. This is not breeding to clearances, but using clearances as one item in the selection process. We are fortunate that we have a breed with a large, diverse gene pool. By using genetic tests to select breeding partners, we are not narrowing our options overly much. I understand the frustration of stud dog owners who find their carrier boys are not being used as much as they otherwise deserve, but you can use them safely yourself, which would not be possible without the DNA tests. Like many other breeders, I stopped using a Ch CD JH when I discovered that his sire was a carrier for PRA. Today I could use him safely.

Why would you not use an EIC carrier on a clear bitch??? If the stud had everything else you were looking for??

It reminds me of when people all sought out Optigen clears, not so much because they had a carrier bitch, but because testing was rarer than it is now, so if a bitch wasn't tested, we assumed she was a carrier, thus only considered a clear. As more and more people test for EIC, I think you'll see more people with clear bitches and will be happy to breed to these handsome boys who just happen to be carriers of EIC. I myself just kept a carrier, and don't care at all, a lovely puppy who I am having fun showing. Like someone said, that's precisely WHY we have the testing, so we can use it as a knowledge tool. I wouldn't (and haven't) hesitated to breed to a carrier. It's no different than to an Optigen carrier. We use the info in the exact same way.

Yes. . .
The problem with all these tests is that if they are used to automatically remove dogs from breeding, our gene pool will get smaller and smaller. Then you will see some really really ugly recessive problems surface.

Then why do we see some of these once heavily used studs being retired, no longer available to the public, sold or placed as pets because they either are EIC carriers or they have produced EIC carriers?

The situation has changed dramatically with the advent of genetic tests. Before they were available, there was no really reliable way to identify carriers unless you actually did a test breeding to an affected- and even there you needed a large litter to reach statistical significance. Thus, the ethical thing to do was to remove a carrier from the gene pool to prevent accidental breeding of two carriers. Lots of people have not made the adjustment yet. Maybe the owners of these stud dogs got tired of dealing with them. Or maybe they feel that it is in the best interests of the breed to reduce the number of carriers in the gene pool.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that for a recessive condition like EIC, most copies of the allele that causes the problem will be present in carriers, not in affected individuals. The number of affecteds vs carriers is roughly proportional to the old quadratic equation we all immediately forgot after we passed algebra. Applied to the frequencies of genes in a population it is stated

a squared + 2ab + b squared = 1

If the frequency of affected individuals (b squared because they have two copies of teh recessive allele) is 1/100, or .01, the frequency of the b allele is the square root of .01, or 0.1. So the frequency of carriers is 2ab = 2 X 0.1 X( 1-0.1) (1-0.1 is the frequency of the normal allele). This works out to 2 X 0.1 X 0.9 =0.18. So if 1 in 100 are affected, then almost 1 in 5 are carriers. Most copies of the gene are present in carriers, not affected individuals.

I have a carrier boy and I'm keeping him for sure. Gorgeous boy with the whole gamut of tests. Clear for everything except EIC. Great dog. Great coat, gorgeous head. Wonderful temperament and drive. Plan to use him on one of my girls soon. Others have used him and liked what they got.

As a bitch owner also, I would definitely breed to an EIC carrier. I try to look at the entire picture and not just focus on one very insignificant part of it.

I breed a whole dog to a whole dog, not clearances to clearances.

And then there is the Murphy's Law equation...

If he/she is the keeper, he/she will be carrier/affected... Oh dear!

Thanks for all the replies and useful information. I am keeping him. I have not received the results for the EIC test back yet so with a little luck there is still a chance he is clear.