I was just reading the posts about Ingen and ran across one in which the breeder stated that he/she wouldn't use a stud dog that had not been tested for EIC. I understand that. However, I have seen EIC clears with pedigrees that are very suspicious for other diseases. EIC is just ONE of MANY problems that can pop up in a pedigree, and it's easy to breed around. I'll take the risk of EIC over the risk of TVD, for example. It's funny how people aren't as fussy about heart clearances as they are about EIC...

Because there is no test for TVD. The TVD test they have now will only tell if a dog has TVD or not. It does not tell if the dog can produce it. The top TVD producer in recent times has a heart clearance. A lot of good that has done to the hundreds of TVD pups he has been responsible for. EIC test is similar to the PRA test. You can breed around producing affecteds just by making sure one parent is clear.

A test is a test and that's all it is. I have a bitch I suspect is a Carrier...haven't tested her. Heck, she may be affected. I bred her back when the test wasn't being done, bred her to a dog that wasn't tested because the test wasn't being done. Ended up with a handful of carriers and an affected in the pups I tested. Sire ended up being a Carrier when finally tested. So I never bothered testing my girl...I know she's one or the other, certainly NOT clear. Bred her no problem to a Clear boy. No chance of affected, so why bother doing the test.

I just don't understand why folks FIGHT the test. Just do it or make educated choices around it. If you don't want to test your bitches, FINE. Use only clear boys. No big deal. If you have a clear bitch, FINE...you can use any boy you want.

The test is a test used to make decisions. Why throw out dogs because of it. Just because Stud A won't work for me, doesn't mean he's not perfect for you.

Why do we need to argue about it? I don't care if you test or not. But when I need to make a breeding decision, I will pick the dog that is best for my bitch and I'll have to pick a Clear boy. So Mr. Stud Owner, you didn't test your boy, I think you and I will live our lives just fine if we choose not to do business together. I am sure YOUR boy is not the ONLY stud out there that pairs well with my bitch.

If for some reason a particular stud is the ONLY one I could possibly use with my bitch because this would be the pedigree match of the century and both dogs are 100% perfect...I would hope the Stud owner would be willing to test their boy in order to create this magical ALL champion litter . If they aren't willing, they are really probably not the type of person you should be working with anyway, so why bother getting into bed with a schmuck in the first place.

Breeding is multi-faceted. Wake up folks.

So would you use a dog with 0-1 elbows? I bet not.

"I'll take the risk of EIC over the risk of TVD, for example."

I agree; EIC is not as serious as TVD. However, it is a lot harder to get information about who the producers are, and not everyone is privy to the information. In fact, many breeders seem to have the attitude that it is for me to know and you to find out. Then they question the breeding practices of the people they refuse to help. I have specifically asked several people who frequent this forum questions about TVD by private email - do you think I always get an answer? Have you tried to get such information and been denied? If you are one of those people who keep complaining about pedigrees that have TVD producers in them, have you ever ignored an appeal for information? I don't mean naming names on a public forum, but by private request. Do you tell someone interested in your stud dog about all the problems in the lines behind him?

I've been around long enough to know some of the lines that produce affected dogs, but even so, I've unknowingly bred litters that had more risk than I would have been willing to accept had I known what I know now. What if I were a novice just starting out - how would I learn about these things? I had one of the best mentors when I started out, but she is no longer with us, and even she got unpleasantly surprised sometimes.

That's why the genetic tests are so great. You have reliable information about that specific dog; you don't have to dig through his ancestry to ferret out whether or not he carries a particular gene. You don't have to play guessing games with OFA records. You can use dogs you might otherwise avoid because you know that PRA or EIC is in the pedigree. I suspect that one reason some people dislike the tests is that they no longer have their secret stash of information that makes them fell more empowered than the average breeder.

Me too, EIC is not that big of a deal for show/pet people. No that it wouldn't scare the c***p out of me to see my dog dragging his legs, but it is not a life threatening thing like PRA, TVD and definitely not as serious as full bloom epilepsy.
Still, it is nice to be able to breed around it.

I was thinking the same thing. I sure don't know of any dog who is responsible for "hundreds" of TVD puppies. And, if he is then my next question is how many puppies did he produce that are NOT TVD affected - must be thousands!

If a dog really has produced hundreds of TVD puppies, it does not matter if he produced hundreds or thousands of clear puppies - why would a dog be kept at stud that repeatedly produced affected puppies?

Per a search on OFA, there are only 11 Labradors listed with abnormal cardiac results. If one based opinions on what is reported/communicated, one would think TVD is a non-issue in Labradors. Where are all of the TVD affected dogs? Of course they are out there, but because there is no test or good way of identifying carriers (because very few people are honest and open about what their dogs have produced and would rather believe that it was not THEIR dog but the other dog used in the breeding that produced the issue), people are allowed to unknowingly breed to dogs that they probably would not use if they had pertinent info. I will take an imperfect EIC test any day over the secrecy surrounding seizures and TVD.

Thank you for that post, Peggy. I've been around for only six years, but have tried my best to learn what lines have which problems and it's a more than frustrating effort that usually offers no clear results. People who don't share information they have about deadly diseases in lines of Labs could not possibly love this breed more than they love something else. That something else could be status, ego, money, friendships, but it's more powerful than the health of these dogs, and I find that sad for a breeder dedicated to this breed.

Your so right Anne. Why hide it? Why say you dont believe in the test because it currently just a "marker", who cares. For now, what EIC has to offer is at least a place to start, to know what direction to go in with your breeding program. Unfortunately, I have an affected female, and MUST avoid considering several lovely stud dogs because the owners just wont do it...or, they wont admit they did it. Why would you hide a result? Either you did it because you want to know for yourself and the betterment of the breed, or your chosing to have blinders on and tell people how incorrect the testing process for it is. Plain and simple...I can tell FOR SURE that my bitch's Daddy is either a Carrier or an Affected, your guess is as good as mine.