What happened in Orlando yesterday and today?

W/BW FEATHER DOWNS JASPER.
R OSEAY'S WALK IN THE SKY
W SALTY'S ISLAND GIRL OF TAMPA BAY.
R BRANCHWATERS TOUCH OF LACE
B CH ROSEWATER BABALU
OS GCH CHAMBRAYS AND THE BEAT GOES ON
SEL GCH TECATE RIDING THE WAVES WITH SALTY.
SEL CH CHAMBRAYS DAKOTA ON DECK

WD/BW IMPULSE DISCO FUREVER
RWD OSEAY'S WALK IN THE SKY
WB FEATHER DOWNS HOLD YOUR BREATH
RWB SALTY SEA SPRAY OF TAMPA BAY & TECATE JH
BOB GCH VAN DALEN SHOW DENS TOP GUN
OS GCH CHAMBRAYS AND THE BEAT GOES ON
SEL CH CHAMBRAYS DAKOTA ON DECK
SEL CH ROSEWATER BABALU

thank you!

Did anyone see the charcoal Labrador that was shown? She was in open black both days.

There was no charcoal bitch in the ring. Just a mature female that is showing some white. Go back to your hole and educate yourself first.

I just checked the results and saw no open black bitch that would be from a kennel that produces dilutes.

But that leads me to wonder, what if a judge had a dilute in their ring? Would they have the guts to disqualify it? I know that with the Silvers AKC classifies them as Chocolate, but there is no mention of a charcoal. We all the know the day will come when someone has the balls to enter one. You know if it's not DQ'd that they will now consider them showable.

Of course they are showable!
A “Charcoal” is nothing more than a Black, correctly registered and DNA’d as such…just like any other Black in the ring would be.

I find it ironic that “Breeder” say’s a mature Black female showing white (grayish in appearance) is acceptable, but a Black female showing dilution (grayish in appearance) is not. Oh, the hypocrisy. Both are the expression of modifying genes on a solid coat. Six of one, half dozen of the other. If one can show, so too can the other.

Here’s hoping that the dog was indeed Charcoal so we can finally all just accept the dilutes and move on. Our breed has way bigger problems than something as simple as the shade of acceptable coat colors.

Oh Simply STUPID is back!! He probably posted the question to begin with just to fire up the Dilute controversy again. Notice it's not even about Silvers anymore because we all know that color is NOT a mutation (as originally claimed), but rather the result of a dilute gene that is not natural to the breed. Now we have charcoal/blue and fawn or champagne. A charcoal is NOT black, it is a bluish coloration which is quite different from black and of course it has the UNNATURAL DILUTE GENE from its Weimeraner ancestor.

And NO IT IS NOT SHOWABLE! Charcoal/blue, just as Silver is NOT one of the three colors allowed in the standard. Go ahead, try it. You'll be laughed out of the ring! Shows what you know about the conformation ring and breeding to the standard.

Do us a favor, go breed your MUTTS, let us who TRULY care about the breed, enjoy and preserve the ORIGINAL HERITAGE OF THE BREED!

And FWIW, a black lab that has greying around the muzzle is NOT the same as a dilute Lab!

Now go crawl back under your ROCK and piss off!!!!!!!

Careful, your arrogance is showing...just a little.

I'm just as interested to learn if this rumor is true as anyone here. The ramifications would be far reaching indeed.

Looking at the post that started this rumor, "Copper" specifically noted a "charcoal" had been shown. If this individual is authentic (meaning they know Labs and AKC shows), they no doubt know the difference between a basic graying muzzle and a Lab with a generally gray appearance...then again, this could be a dilute Black whose coat looks as dark as any other Black. Seen a few of these, can't be picked out in a line up of Blacks.

Hopefully someone with some definitive info will chime in so that at least the name calling can stop and we can have a civilized conversation.

Like I stated earlier, I checked the results on Infodog. None of the bitches entered were from dilute lines. They were all champion sired and/or from kennels known to me. No reputable show kennel has ever produced a silver.

There is a breeder in FL that does breed dilutes, advertises on her website that she has charcoal, silvers and champagnes. Before she got into the silver lines, through Culo, she bred chocolates for 30+ years and never produced a silver from those lines. Her kennel name for her chocolate line started with Copper. Now it's Silver. I am sure that's who the poster "copper" was referring to. But none of her lines or dogs were in open black.

Here are the entries from the show in question:

RETRIEVERS (LABRADOR). Open, Black Bitches.
A 8 MOONLIT'S KNIGHT-CAP AT P3. SR 58001104. 08-20-09
By Ch Fenwyck's MoonLit Knight - MoonLit's Banana Cream Pie.
Owner: Rebekah Loveless & Susan Bennington., Clyde, NY 144339729. Breeder: Susan Bennington.
(Lisa Sobosz, Agent).
3 10 MAKASI TWIST OF FATE AT MILLTOWNE. SR 31204502. 11-28-05
By Ch Westriver's Chains Required - Makasi Have Mercy.
Owner: Mario Cilia & Betty Dust., Lisbon, MD 21765. Breeder: Elisabeth Flowerree.
(Shelby Roberts, Agent).
A 12 SHEABOURNE'S PRECIOUS GEM. SR 52735003. 09-05-08
By Ch Belgairn Polo - Ch Sheabourne's Precious Angel.
Owner: Shannon Carlton., Davenport, FL 338379305. Breeder: Shannon & Earl Carlton.
(Melanie Smith, Agent).
A 16 TECATE'S GIDGET HANGS TEN WITH SALTY. SR 50316403. 04-14-08
By Ch Salty Dog Of Tampa Bay - Tecate Somrthing To Talk About.
Owner: Scott McGilvrey & Susan Meyer & Dennis Williams., Tampa, FL 336184200. Breeder: Susan Meyer & Dennis Williams.
2 46 DUCKBACK'S HI-HOPE MILLIE SH. SR 37099201. 08-10-06
By Ch Ransom's Armbrook Indigo Hue CD MH - Duckback Sunshine Express SH.
Owner: Anne Evans & Ellison Armfield., Bennett, NC 272088207. Breeder: David Payne.
(Amy Walker, Agent).
1 66 WINQUEST CHAMBRAY'S DONNA GIA . SR 19405801. 06-28-04
By Ch Ghoststone's Louie Downtown CD - Blade-N-Bay Spice Girl Affair.
Owner: Adrienne Berarducci., Sarasota, FL 342431522. Breeder: Geraldo DeSouza & V Herzon.
(Janice Granda, Agent).

There were only 3 bitches show in open black. The oldest bitch is 7 years old. She's no doubt showing her grey muzzle. I know her sire well and there is NO dilute gene behind him.

It's late here, good night!

Thanks for posting that info up. Indeed it appears that these lines are not tied to silvers yet, at least not that I am aware of.

Copper, what say you, where is the Charcoal?

Charcoal is not an acceptable color. Gray/white hair is normal aging. Have you ever had an old dog??? Maybe when your silvers and charcoals stop producing big litters you just dump them.
The bitch that you are referring to comes from respectable old established lines. I know this bitch and I know her sire. No, there is no charcoal there.
Your post is totally out of place.

No I am pretty sure what I seen was a charcoal or dilute black what some may call it. I have seen post of picture posted here that some charcoal can't even be seen with the naked eye. This girl had a brownish black coat with some graying. I have done a lot of thinking and sent out an Email to a lady in California and she said that she knows of a couple others that have popped up in show lines and hunting lines. Do I believe her? Not sure, all I have been told for years is there is no way, it doesn't exist. Some of these breeders have some very convincing information. One thing I have also learned is charcoals darken with age. I could be wrong but.....

Old dogs welcome. Charcoal laughed at and talked about. They might have the balls to walk in the ring but would sure be taking a step backward in respect.
And thank goodness there was some nice competition there, not a one man show. Also alot of blacks when blowing coat look brown or lighter black from the undercoat.

I see those colors on some of my blacks when they're blowing coat. Brownish black is not gray or charcoal. This is the time of year many Labradors are blowing coat especially with humid weather. It sure sounds like undercoat to me.

I hope you realize your lack of knowledge posts about Labs and * charcoals * is fueling an argument. If you're comfortable with that, continue posting.

Yes, you are wrong and I smell envy. This bitch is out singled. Do you need any more proof??? Go back to your hole and learn some grammar. Your writing skills are even worse than your knowledge of the breed.

Have been breeding over 45yrs. Was there. There were no charcoals in the ring! End of story!

Thanks for the additional information copper.

You are correct that some charcoals are very dark and difficult to tell apart from a black. Your description fits quite well with what many charcoal coats look like, "brownish black coat with some graying," which is why some may think it is a sun burnt undercoat on a Black, they look so similar. I'm guessing you don't want reveal which dog you saw as being charcoal on the open forum, and that is respectable, especially considering if this is not a charcoal (what fall out that would likely cause from the breeder). If you would like further assistance in tracing the lines of the suspect charcoal, I'm willing to assist as well and have a large database of the various known dilute lines at my disposal. Feel free to email if you so choose.

I was there too and agree w/ oldbreeder2, There were no charcoals in the ring.

You need to get a life and quit trying to start something.

That not one poster on this thread even congratulated any of the winners. Just go right for the throat and seek out what can be critized at the florida shows. Like always!!! Only in the lab ring in florida because of those certain "same ones" who are always on here stirring it up. I just chalk it up to jealously and envy.

Congratulations to all the winners!!!!!!

I totally agree with "Note". This was a big weekend for all those entered. A Huge Congratulations to all the winners and many thanks for all those who entered.

You are right. No one congratulated the winners. Maybe that's because it usually requires friends to offer congrats.

One of the winners both days might have decent dogs, but being one of the biggest backstabbers in the breed with one of the worst reputations for keeping friends means crickets are usually heard in posts waiting for congrats and well wishes.

I don't think this is the place to congratulate winners anyway. I mean seriously, how many of the owners of these dogs actually visit this forum?

I've seen people post new champions and big wins on here and only a few people congratulate them. Then other people who have more friends on here post a win and their friends come out of the wood work to congratulate them. I finished a dog a few months ago and then recently won a few majors on several others. I kept those wins between me and my friends. I didn't need to brag about it on here. Most of my friends congratulated me in person, via the phone and on FB.

I do like the fact that the OP thanked the person who posted the results. Often times I see people come on here basically demanding results (no "please") and then when someone takes the time to post them, the OP never even says thanks.

I think the thread blew up when someone mentioned a charcoal at the show. I looked up images of a charcoal (dilute black). There is no mistaking it for black. Brownish undercoat is just indicative of an impending shed. "Copper" must be a novice.

I think the thread blew up when someone mentioned a charcoal at the show. I looked up images of a charcoal (dilute black). There is no mistaking it for black. Brownish undercoat is just indicative of an impending shed. "Copper" must be a novice.


Correct. It wasn't the typical Florida show arguing. This is worse. The thread was hijacked by a dumby named *copper* who's still watching the thread prolly.

Don't blame the rest of us for their stupidity bringing up and insisting there was a charcoal bitch there. It was a way of distracting the information supplied. Get it?

I was at the shows and as a lab judge of 28 years I too did not see any color problems in the open black. What I did see was dogs in various stages of coat (it has been 90-100 degrees in the south for many weeks) and really good quality, I unfortunately was one of those naked ones that went for some ring experience and to support some friends in another breed. it speaks volumes when the bred by bitch class equals the number of entries in the open classes. I do not know the personalties involved but they were trying desperately to keep a major to hold to the point of moving the BBE bitch class to the end of open with the approval of all BBE exhibitors to accommodate someone in another breed ring. Personally I had no problem with that as long as all agreed as they did. Everyone wants a major to hold. It is a dog show, with nice dogs and I had a good time. PS. I did not win, didn't expect to, but because of this thread I learned something about the multiple color issues that are out there and promoted on the Internet. So thanks, I think that is what the forum is all about, sharing and education

Since I was at the show and congratulated the winners in person. Hugs to boot. I see no need to add Congratulations to the winners when it was already done. Was that remark meant to insinuate the winner was a charcoal? I hope not. Get a freaking life and find another breed to "pick" on.

NOTICE I USED MY REAL NAME.

YOU HAD TO GO ON THE PUBLIC FORUM AND SAY THIS?
NOT!

TO EVERYONE ELSE...I HOPE YOU HAVE A GREAT WEEK . TRULY

THERE IS WHERE YOU ARE WRONG. IT TAKES SOMEONE WHO DISPLAYS GOOD SPORTSMANSHIP AND CLASS TO OFFER CONGRATULATIONS TO THE WINNERS.

So agree. It was fun. There was applause and hugs. It was a nice show. But we cannot all win. Don't mind losing to good dogs and if you can follow the judges it is a bonus. Take a deep breath and remember it is a dog show, you pay your money get a judges opinion. Don't win, there is another dog show just around the corner. It is not life and death

Thank you Allison!! That is what I am talking about.

You are so right, all of the people at this show displayed true sportsmanship to one another. The people coming out of there holes on this thread should go back in them because we didn't miss you at the shows. I was there and don't have a bad thing to say about this show, wonderful dogs, good judging, true sportsmanship. What more can we ask for from this sport. Maybe the hole person is color blind, wouldn't that be funny.

If you have to continually go on and on about how you are good sports then you probably are not. Actions speak louder than words.