There seems to be a general consensus among the breeders on this forum that the only justifiable reason to breed is to "better the breed." Although there is plenty of disagreement regarding how our breed should be "bettered" (field vs. show, specialty vs. all breed, etc.), in general a breeder is considered "ethical" if they breed towards some form of betterment.

Breeders who breed for profit are not considered ethical. I have read a lot of posts trashing people who breed multiple litters per year, from untitled parents, to sell as pets. Even if their dogs have the necessary health clearances and wonderful temperaments, the fact that they are producing large amounts of puppies from unproven parents immediately earns them a stamp of disapproval.

I'd like to question that judgement.

Why is it considered acceptable to breed for a hobby, but not for monetary gain? Whether you compete your dogs in conformation or field trials, it is a hobby. Something you do for your own personal enjoyment. Something that benefits YOU, the breeder, handler, trainer, etc. Your gain from it may be less tangible than money, you may enjoy the competition, the thrill of winning, the companionship of your fellow lab enthusiasts, etc. I know that the dogs probably enjoy these competition as much as their owners- there are dogs who bask in the attention at the show ring, and others who live to retrieve at hunt/field events. I'm not arguing that the dogs don't benefit from the events that constitute part of your hobby, but I don't see how they benefit from the breeding aspect. Obviously the breeder benefits, they can continue the bloodlines that brought them success in whatever venue they compete in, thereby ensuring that their hobby will continue to be rewarding for them.

I'm assuming the benefit to the breed as a whole is that the standard and original purpose of the breed are preserved and continued. Which is important- for PEOPLE who want a dog who can compete in the various venues. Again, it benefits humans. But I don't see how preserving the breed benefits the actual DOGS. I can't imagine that a litter of puppies would be happier to be born of champion parents than mutts.

I don't understand why people who breed for a hobby are so judgmental of people who breed for profit. Both are breeding for their own personal benefit. I think "to better the breed" has been confused with "for the sake of the dogs", and hobby breeders have convinced themselves that they are morally superior. Regardless of why you breed, you are doing it for yourself, not your dogs.

I know that a lot of profit breeders engage in some shady practices, but I think it is unfair to paint them all with the same brush. Personally, I choose to breed four litters apiece out of my four chocolate bitches by my co-owned chocolate stud. Yes, it is breeding for color. Yes, I am a "pet person." And yes, I have hips, elbows, echo, EIC, CNM, CERF, and optigen on all of them. I don't compete in any venue. I don't breed to keep back one puppy a litter as a show or field trial prospect. I breed to create chocolate puppies, who sell very quickly to loving, carefully screened families for a nice profit. I approached a show breeder about acquiring a new puppy and got a stern "no" and a lot of "helpful advice" about bettering the breed. Obviously, I've been stewing on this for a while, and I decided to post to see if there is some key concept that I am missing- some reason why breeding for the current style (be it coat or bone or length of leg) is morally and ethically superior to breeding for monetary gain.

Quite well put questioning. I too find the attitude somewhat superior, but can also understand the hope behind it. There are very, very few "pet" breeders who do a good job. However, most people who want a pet, do not want to wait over a year on somebody's waiting list.
If those were the only breeders available, there would be two problems. First, the waiting lists would realistically become years long. Second, there would be a "black market" for Labs that come from less than stellar facilities and other countries.
I think that pet breeders who do all the testing and screen buyers and take back dogs they breed, ect.. should be encouraged to breed Labs from good lines, as well as encouraged to get involved in some venue. I have been bitten by the show bug, and can't wait to get involved, but it took a few years of evolving for me to get there.

If you are really doing all that testing on all your dogs (five of them), feeding them, vetting them, sparing no expense on breeding expenses, then maybe you aren't counting your money correctly.

Granted you are probably seeing some monetary gain because you aren't proving your dogs LOOK the standard or have that TRAINABILITY that Labradors should have, so you don't have those expenses.

But then again, you might just be riding the coat tails of the breeders behind your dogs and selling your pups for far more than they are truly worth.

There is no way that the hobby breeders could ever keep up with the demand for lab pups. I would rather see a backyard breeder who is educated enough to know to do health clearances, and to stick by the pups she bred for their lifetime, as opposed to puppy mill breeders. I just don't want them using any of my girls to do it. But, I would allow a stud dog of mine to be used on a girl that has all her health clearances. Unless the bitch was just an awful representative of the breed, of course.

I think you just answered your own question:

" I'm not arguing that the dogs don't benefit from the events that constitute part of your hobby, but I don't see how they benefit from the breeding aspect. "

The dogs DON'T benefit from being bred, at least not in my opinion! Every time I breed, I worry about all the "what ifs" that can happen during pregnancy and whelping and afterward. Breeding isn't one of those things to be taken lightly, so if a person isn't doing it for good reason (ie, improve your own lines at least so you can carry on!), I can't encourage that person to breed.

"Breeding isn't one of those things to be taken lightly, so if a person isn't doing it for good reason (ie, improve your own lines at least so you can carry on!), I can't encourage that person to breed."

That brings me back to my original question- how is your reason "improve your own lines at least so you can carry on!" superior to my reason- "make money"? You accept the risks of breeding on behalf of your dogs so you can continue your hobby. I accept the risks so I can turn a profit. Why is your hobby a more justifiable aim?

"You accept the risks of breeding on behalf of your dogs so you can continue your hobby. I accept the risks so I can turn a profit. Why is your hobby a more justifiable aim?"
Because they are dogs, a companion animal, not chickens, not soybeans, not widgets, and it is a slippery slope before one decides that a few more than you have time to give individual attention will be a greater profit, and maybe a barn full of them is best, and what the heck, it didn't pass any health tests, but someone will buy pups from them, and you might want to quietly shoot and shovel if they get too old to produce, etc. etc. The dog world is full of such histories. It is a slippery slope that every fancier, breeder, rescuer, pet owner, etc. has to be careful not to slide down. Me included, as I am human too, and I have seen stuff happen to once good intentions in others..

"Granted you are probably seeing some monetary gain because you aren't proving your dogs LOOK the standard or have that TRAINABILITY that Labradors should have, so you don't have those expenses.

But then again, you might just be riding the coat tails of the breeders behind your dogs and selling your pups for far more than they are truly worth."

My dogs do come from what I consider nice bloodlines- I had to go to hobby breeders to find pedigrees with the clearances I was looking for. So although they themselves have not personally been proven in show or field, I would think that they do look the standard and have the trainability. They may not be dual champion material, but they could probably get conformation certificates if I wanted them. Maybe a JH title if they went with a trainer, maybe not.

As far as riding other breeders coattails and selling the puppies for more than they're worth... I paid the asking price for my dogs when I bought them, and I have no problem selling them at the price I ask. Sounds like fair business to me.

"You accept the risks of breeding on behalf of your dogs so you can continue your hobby. I accept the risks so I can turn a profit. Why is your hobby a more justifiable aim?"
Because they are dogs, a companion animal, not chickens, not soybeans, not widgets, and it is a slippery slope before one decides that a few more than you have time to give individual attention will be a greater profit, and maybe a barn full of them is best, and what the heck, it didn't pass any health tests, but someone will buy pups from them, and you might want to quietly shoot and shovel if they get too old to produce, etc. etc. The dog world is full of such histories."

I know there are BYB's out there who do horrible things. I've also read on this very forum about HIGH volume breeders who win specialties with their dogs. I think you're painting all pet breeders with the same brush again, and I have to object. I have four dogs in my home (my co-owned stud lives with another family). I don't treat them like soybeans or chickens. They are very much companion animals. They are clicker trained, crate trained, they stay indoors with me and my children. Just because I don't follow the code of "only breed to better the breed" DOESN'T mean I don't have a personal code of ethics that I adhere to. I dare say my dogs are more "companions" than the dogs of some high volume hobby breeders.

My aim is money. Yours is hobby. I'm not going to fall down some slippery slope to make huge profits. I could just as easily say that hobby breeders are likely to not disclose that their champion stud is an EIC carrier, because he has such good qualities and has been proven in the ring. It's a slippery slope, you know... the show world is full of such histories.

Your message was delivered by shotgun - with bits scattered all over the topic. I'd like to address just a couple of the issues.

1. Anyone who says they are "bettering" the breed is functioning on ego. It is arrogant to think that any one person could know what would make the breed "better" overall. What they mean is that they try to make the breed more to their personal liking. I say "boo...hiss" to that. The breed was developed for a purpose and has been purebred for almost a century. From generation to generation we can choose to make the breed healthier, sounder, more competent at their job, etc. That isn't "bettering" the breed - it is simply good animal husbandry and sticking to the purpose stated in the standard.

2. Whether you show, hunt or simply enjoy your pet is not the issue. Breeding a dog implies taking responsibility for the outcome. Many people who only breed for market shirk that responsibility by not selecting sound stock and cutting corners on expensive care or screening. Producing sound, healthy puppies that have little probability of becoming disabled from a PREVENTABLE genetic disorder is not cheap. Hobby breeders tend to assume this expense as part of the normal cost of breeding. This is precisely how the next generation of dogs benefits from careful breeding. Sure it benefits the future owners as well in reduced costs for chronic vet care, but the health and longevity of the DOGS is the bottom-line plus.

Pets can come in all sizes and shapes. The ONLY reason to get a purebred of any breed is predictability. The size, shape, general temperament, abilities, longevity, etc. are part of the breed makeup. If you are not breeding "typical" representatives of the breed together, you lose some of this predictability. Dog shows measure whether a dog is similar to the type in the written standard. Field events measure whether a dog is capable of doing the work for which it was designed. Other performance activities measure trainability, etc. Dogs that do well in these venues have shown themselves to be fairly "typical" representatives of the breed. When a combination of competition and health screening is used to select dogs for breeding, there is some reasonable expectation that the offspring will be MORE predictable to fit the guidelines for the breed. If you don't care about that predictability, then you can adopt any mixed-breed rescue pup as a companion

I find it very sad for your dogs-you may train them and crate them and keep them in the house-so give yourself a pat on the back. But, you talk about them like they are a "thing"-from your tone it sounds like you are using them for profit. Motive here is disturbing. If you really loved them you would not be looking to make money off them. I don't know who sold your first girls but it would not have been me-you seem to communicate you had no interest in the breed or the dog-merely to fatten your pockets. You won't get any validation for your motives here.

Because dogs are companion animals and not food animals, most people feel an emotional attachment, and the idea of selling puppies as a means of income goes against the grain.
That being said, there are plenty of "hobby" breeders out there who regularly have litters to help finance their hobby and/or their lives. They do all the right things (usually), but have no intention of keeping any of the pups.
At least you're honest about your motives.

When you compete in a venue with your purebred dogs, you not only prove them, but you also have a huge base of people to learn from, and about different lines, from mentors in your breed. If you are sitting at home breeding your dogs for a profit, without mentorship, you could very well be making poor breeding decisions you aren't even aware of. Do you guarantee hips and elbows? Eyes? What about heart clearances?

If I read your post correctly, you have 4 chocolate bitches, you breed over and over to your co owned stud dog, do you ever use a different stud dog? What are you going to do when your 4 breeding bitches are beyond breeding age? You don't keep puppies out of your litter, and if you did, you wouldn't get to use your for "free" co-owned stud dog on them... What is you plan for the future? Buy new stock to breed to your co owned stud dog or?

OP wrote: "There seems to be a general consensus among the breeders on this forum that the only justifiable reason to breed is to "better the breed."


Hmmm, wouldn't be my choice of words "better the breed", rather thought of it as striving to preserve the breed and carry on in a manner for the betterment of the breed.

Keep telling yourself this and maybe one day you will believe it and not have to look for validation on a forum. Pimps feel the same way about their girls-they feed them and clothe them and in their twisted minds think this equates to a form of love-all in the name of money.
You did not cause me distress, only your "companions" who you use for selfish reasons-making them have puppies so YOU can have more in life.
Those who are real hobby breeders aren't looking to make a profit, they are looking for enjoyment and in so doing that keep trying to improve what others have built on. There is true joy is seeing the next generation do better than the first-when you actually plan a litter and see your dream realized. You are planning litters so maybe you can plan your next vacation...
How many stud fees have you paid to improve on your puppies instead of using your own male? Or, are your puppies that you sell so perfect in every way no need for improvement?
When you went shopping for your companions did you buy from someone like yourself-just curious?
If there are easier ways to make money maybe you should look into them-if you were breeding because love was the motivation then you would be donating your pups to service facilities or organizations that need well bred labs with all clearances. That is love, not greed. You waved your own red flag.

Oh that is just the icing on your cake-that is really love-use them and give them to a pet home. You ARE a pet home remember, all the training and living indoors and love.

Well, pet breeder person, first off reputable breeders do not use their dogs uterus as a means to pay their mortgage.
They put just as much, usually more money into the dogs than they ever get back from selling puppies.
Second, we don't breed to "improve the breed". It doesn't need help. We breed to improve our own lines and to move forward with something to be proud of and to compete with that will prove it's quality (our hard work).
I suppose you think that's wrong?

I wouldn't be surprised if your choice of chocolate happened to be of the Silver variety. If not, heck, you should consider it since your ONLY motive is money.

Obviously you don't look at puppies to see if what you're producing meets standards, only if it met the needs of your next shopping spree. Let me guess, your next excuse might just be your girls love being mothers and that is why you do it. Address the real issue here which is you are using your dogs-they are mere livestock to you-you have no love for them or the breed, only your pocketbook. I hear women get good money for harvesting their own eggs-maybe you might want to look into that.
At least be honest with yourself and stop trying to use others to validate your ill intentions.

Whooooaaaaaa, hold it right there! LOL You're saying:

"I'm not saying you shouldn't breed them, I'm just saying your motives aren't any better than mine!"

You said earlier you breed for profit!! I would bet the majority of responsible breeders know going into any breeding that they could very well come out in the red till all is said and done, but they are breeding for other reasons than for a "cash crop". I think that disproves your above statement. And they may only have ONE bitch, NOT four of breeding age,or maybe they only do a breeding every couple years, not several a year... so they don't have a back up litter to fall back on if they do go into the red!!

Not saying you are on the doorstep of being a puppy miller, but keep this for a point of reference:

Search the history of puppy mills and will find, "Puppy mills began sprouting up after World War II. In response to widespread crop failures in the Midwest, the United States Department of Agriculture began promoting purebred puppies as a fool-proof “cash” crop."

darn, so now I know what I'm doig wrong all these years...not breeding enough litters every year. I've always known that I would never make any profits in this hobby but the reality has never rung so true in the past few years. My well thought out 2 litters a year usually ends up to be either 1 litter or 1.5 litters a year or in our current litter, our girl whelped 1/4 a litter..hahahah
Breeding is a hobby and how breeders indulge their fancy is or should be based on their passion for the breed. If your passion is showing or any other venue, go out and enjoy. If you enjoy breeding for other reasons, as long as your dogs are getting their needs met and you are ethical with your families who adopt your puppies, more power to you in monies gained to help pay for your hobby.

I think you just posted this thread because you are bored and you wanted to see a good dog (owner) fight.
It doesn't make sense. You have 4 bitches, who you tested for everything there is to be tested?

These are your first 4 bitches and all of them passed OFA hips, elbows, CERF, heart echoed, EIC, PRA, CNM, all clear?
To get to these 4 wonderful breeding bitches you didn't have to place any previous dogs because it didn't pass a clearance or got an injury or just didn't fit the standard?
All your dogs have excellent pedigrees and they all are pretty close to the standard?
Heck, Can I get in your waiting list???? lol, seriously....

BINGO! You were waiting for validation and now you have-see how happy that made you. Maybe tonight you can actually put your head on your pillow and sleep.
So much for the credibility of any of your statements.

I agree that their is a fine line between the two motives. However, the way I look at it is this, If the breeder that bred to fatten their pockets really loved the breed, they would be putting some of their money back into the dogs to improve on their quality and their hunting ability. True breeders' dogs are their passion and they enjoy showing, obedience, agility and hunt tests. Just keeping dogs clean, healthy and in the house is not a person's passion, just doing what they have to do to keep them ready to drop the next litter. Why not go and find another breed that is considered a lapdog and breed those. Call it pride, but I call it truly loving the labrador! Labradors love to be worked and are not truly happy without some form of activity as are their hobby breeder owners! Cudos to you, the breeders that do these extra activities with your dogs, as these are the dogs, that can keep the labrador retriever true to its heritage.

I do get something out of this-love-not money-you should try it sometime, may make you not so bitter.
You would think twice about speaking if you knew all the personal frustrations experienced by all the friends on this forum.
.

"Breeders who breed for profit are not considered ethical. I have read a lot of posts trashing people who breed multiple litters per year, from untitled parents, to sell as pets. Even if their dogs have the necessary health clearances and wonderful temperaments, the fact that they are producing large amounts of puppies from unproven parents immediately earns them a stamp of disapproval."

Here's food for thought... doing health clearances doesn't necessarily make ANYONE a "caretaker" of the breed, but it MAY indicate they are a good business person if into breeding soley for profit (the intent of business is to profit) because it's common knowledge the public is becoming more educated as to what clearances to look for when screening breeders.... so those clearances may be more of a necessity to bring a good dollar and present oneself as a responsible breeder.... just sayin'.

No,sorry it is not the same, no matter how many times you type it.

"You get something out of breeding, otherwise you wouldn't do it."

Probably called pride.

"Your dogs certainly don't get anything out of it. They are bred to serve your selfish ends, just like mine. So take off your freakin' halo."

Where to you think all the wonderful breeds came from? Because some people way back cared enough to develop and preserve certain traits and physical characteristics.... OMG those selfish people, yes, it may actually have benefited them!! Most likely, way back when and depending on the breed, it was most likely royalty, cattlemen, fishermen, sportsmen, hunters, etc. (you get my point)... other than the "lap dog" breeds, most were expected to fulfill a work role where there was a need.

How awfully selfish they all were back in the day, the hunter to have his retriever, the herdsman to have his guard dog, the rancher to have his herding dog.... all these wonderful breeds due to man's "selfish need".

"I just don't think that their "other reasons" for breeding are any more noble than mine. If they're loosing money on it, they must be getting something from it. Prestige, ego, etc. Their dogs aren't personally benefiting from being bred. Being typey, being the hottest thing in the ring- DOGS don't benefit from that. Their owners do. And before you argue that the "breed as a whole" somehow benefits, I would remind you that the breed was developed by people, to serve human interests. If you keep your dogs on the standard, you are doing so to ensure that their offspring can continue to be successful in the ring, or the field. So you can feel that success. So they can serve their purpose to you. I can't think of any other way to say it, maybe people just aren't reading it?

**Breeding to the standard doesn't benefit the DOGS!It benefits the "breed", which is a human construction that serves human purposes. Hunting, trialing, showing- the dogs may enjoy the activity, but being bred to produce more show/field dogs doesn't benefit them it benefits your HOBBY!**:



OK everyone, I'm going to call this as I see it.

While I'm all for animal welfare, this person is an animal rights troll IMO. This person is just trying to get everyone going.

Or giving the benefit of the doubt they're for real, what's that saying, never argue with a ______ (fill in the blank).

I agree! So let's not give her any more feedback.

Well I guess I can only speak from my point of view as that is where I am drawing my logic. My interest in being a purebred dog fancier and breeder goes well beyone just "bettering my line" with each generation...that happens to be a result in my efforts in a bigger picture.

I view myself as a perpetual student of this hobby. This is science and art. You can read a standard and make a picture in your head but until you actually have your hands on dogs with correct parts and see how they affect the dog's purpose, I don't think you can call yourself a "breeder".

Our breed has a function...everything from it's coat to it temperment was developed for this function. Watching my dogs retrieve in the water or work in the pasture..I have learned why a poorly constructed front is not desireable. When a dog is picking up large birds you quickly see why proper muzzle length is needed. Having dogs with biddable temperments that have natural retrieving drive is important. How do you assess these qualities unless you are working your dogs? How do you learn about proper conformation and bone structure unless you are going to shows and learning from others and putting your hands on dogs?

You cannot possibly tell correct movement from a picture. You cannot tell if a dog has a correct temperment from looking at a pedigree. How do you even know what correct temperment and structure is when you have never been a student of the breed? I think people who breed without knowledge are misrepresenting themselves to the puppy buying public. How are you able to educate others when you do not know why these dogs are made this way?

I don't give a rat's patootie if you breed for profit or not. We all know this swings both ways. I do care that you are not a student of this breed. The number one thing you should take on as a breeder is the fact that "you should do no harm". I take that as more than just making sure an animal has clearances...I take that as it is our responsibility to preserve the traits that make this breed unique from other breeds and preserve it for future generations of fanciers. We are only here a short time...but our decisions can make such large impacts on the world around us. That includes these animals we breed.

What I cannot understand is why you are so against bettering your knowledge of the breed you are responsible for? Why not participate in some of these events...not to prove your dogs but to educate yourself? I wonder where you get your education...the internet? So much is lost when you are not in the "thick" of things in this hobby.

You have made it clear that you are solely "in it for profit" and that you do not care about this breed. This is sad...for the breed. If you truly do not care, then why did you choose Labradors in the first place? If you are looking to make money there are far more profitable breeds than this. I think you do care...I think you chose this breed because of some of the very characteristics I have outlined above appealled to you. Somewhere along the way you disengaged yourself from being a student of the breed and a serious fancier.

To come on here and pick a fight...which is what you had every intention of doing with this group only tells me that you have a chip on your shoulder and an agenda. It is a pity because the breed is ultimately the thing that suffers.

"I agree! So let's not give her any more feedback."

I second that motion and will just ignore.

"I don't see how my breeding hurts the breed any more than, for example, the specialty winners who could never even get a pass towards their JH. This breed is in poor shape, and many who claim to be "bettering" it are really tearing it apart. My dogs aren't proven in any venue. That is what sets them apart from the dogs most hobby breeders have. But they are probably truer to the standard than some field hobbyists' dogs. And they might have more retrieving drive than some specialty winners. Just because I'm not active in events doesn't mean I don't care about the breed! I never said I didn't care about the breed. I chose Labradors for a million reasons, I never would have chosen another breed. I just questioned why "the good of the breed" is seen as a free pass to create puppies, whereas profit is not. I don't participate in those events because, quite frankly, I don't get on well with the people there ;)"

Well see now I did not mention anything about "bettering" the breed. I am amused at a couple of your points that you are so adamant about. Again...may I ask where are you getting your education? To know that the specialty winners could not get a JH or what is truly being exhibited in the breed ring? I am curious as to how many specialties you have been to and how many of these dogs you have had your hands on and seen in the flesh? How many of these accomplished breeders have you sat and learned from? How have you personally been able to assess this? How exactly do you know that you are breeding dogs more closely to the standard than others since you admittedly don't go to events to actually see other dogs work or show? How do you know you don't get along with people at events? I am sure you are right if you show up with a chip on your shoulder and preconceived notions in your head.

It seems to me that you are coming on here in order to validate your position to yourself. Otherwise, why would you care so much what other people think? That was why you started this thread in the first place wasn't it? To complain how other people "view" what you do? Self validation? You obviously did not thoughtfully read what I had posted...if you had you would have noted that I was not endorsing one aspect of events over another nor was I endorsing reasons to breed. I was pleading that you learn about this breed you are stewarding. It is apparent you do not get the big picture.

I'm not responding to the OP anymore, but to "researcher" I will say, at least I use my name!! Didn't catch yours!

Oh don't fret, the fill in the blank wasn't a 4 letter word for goodness sake!!

BTW, actually anyone who knows me will tell you I'm very patient, but I know enough when to stop banging my head against the wall.

What has happened in your life to make you so angry? Or, maybe what hasn't happened in your life?

I bred my dog because when I purchased her I promised her breeder I would-I did not keep pick puppy, or 2nd or third pick, I kept the puppy I fell in love with. He will not be shown or bred-merely loved but you would never understand that. I purchased a well bred labrador from a lovely breeder who was doing it for the love of the breed-not a backyard money you know what like yourself who sees their dogs as a means to an end. I loved their lines, I would never claim to have my own bloodlines-that takes years in this breed to do and deserves to be credited to those who have done such-you excluded. My girl needed a C-sect and had other issues rearing her litter so she was spayed months after her first litter despite her having all her certifications and ribbons. Had she lived with you she would still be pushing out babies but thank God she is in a truly loving home who puts her first and didn't want to profit off. And yes, we did love holding the babies but not enough to put her thought it again..She was never used as we are not selfish like you.
Keep nit picking at everyone's responses here so you can continue to build your ego into something it is missing. I'm sure I'm not the only one chuckling at your responses.
Some people say they would love to come back as their dogs-wonder if you would say the same...

"I don't participate in those events because, quite frankly, I don't get on well with the people there"

Geez that's really too bad. . .
That's a big part of the small amount of showing that I do. I love the people at dog shows. They share a passion and are pretty interesting folk.

What is more important. . . is that they not only talk the talk, but they walk the walk. I show in very few shows for a lot of reasons. But, I know that if I am ashamed to walk into the ring with one of my dogs, I better stop breeding. This does not mean I must win but it means that I have spent the time and effort in my breeding program, to get to the point where my dogs look like what the generally accepted, quality Labrador should look like. God forbid, that I had been breeding this length of time and my dogs (even the puppies that I sell as pets) look like the poor quality labradors I see walking down the streets of NYC for instance.

Showing takes guts and it keeps you honest. And. . . it keeps you from breeding crap. Yeah, all Lab puppies are cute and pet people might be okay with a lesser quality dog but a breeder should not be okay with it and have the guts to continuously measure his dogs against the field. That's the challenge And motivation for me.

I don't think I have met a perfect person, or a perfect breeder. Many think they are. And those are most often the quickest with advice and questions that have no answer. I have read all the post above, why I don't know its like looking at a car wreck , you know you shouldn't but can't help it. Pet Person you will NOT find whatever it is you look for here.

Why are you all going back and forth with someone who says they are breeding our beloved dogs for $$$$.
Also bet they don't do all those clearances they are talking about. Most sounds made up. Four females and a male, Wow, lets make some money. Stay home all the time, no shows, no field work, no obedience or therapy work to do. But can have four litters a year at least, happy dog, don't think so. Sorry I read all this.

your mind really does go on overtime but from your last response I can see you read too fast and not only missed some important points, made yourself look even less intelligent than previously thought. But even so-here goes-Pet Person you are 100% right! Having said that:
I hope you sell all your puppies with full registration so that EVERYONE can breed for money and profit like you. And, once they are all done using their dogs like you I'm sure being the wonderful loving person you are you will take them all back, like a responsible breeder would do.
As I won't justify your argumentative ego building posts anymore my last advice to you is to take some of your profits and invest in a good therapist. You shouldn't worry about coming back as your dog who you let eat poo, you should be more concerned about the person you are now and what comes out of your mouth-that is even more foul.
Next time you're out shopping with your dogs money think of us. See ya

Pet Person are you on a caffeine high-if you have all this time on your hands do something productive with your life and stop this ranting back and forth. We all get it-you make your dogs have puppies so you can have more money and, you couldn't be more proud. Pride and money-let that be your legacy.

You would keep their dogs if need be, but not your own..

You sell on limited as money is a powerful motivator-so it's okay for you to make money but, not the lovely families you have screened and found fit enough to take a puppy. Not trusting enough to do what is right? So do you trust them or not when you send them home with the puppies you love?

Make up your mind-you sound like a hypocrite.

Your point is clear. You are saying that it is the same to breed for money only than to breed for ego only? Neither one is right.
A breeder breeds for many reasons and they all resume on producing a dog that will be a good representative of the breed. Money is involved in the equation because the money to pay for vet bills, food and shows must come from somewhere. Most people are not rich, hence they must breed and sale the pet puppies.
When you do not go to the shows it makes you an isolated breeder that is not getting any input about the breed. How do you know that your dogs are close to the standard if you don't go to the shows? How do you know if your dogs can retrieve? you never take them out to test them. Understanding a standard is hard even for people that has been breeding for years. What makes you think that you got the right interpretation of it???
My first years as a breeder stayed in the dark. The moment I started going to real AKC shows and specialties I realized that most of my dogs were pet quality, and then I had to start all over again.
Staying in your house/kennel looking at your loved dogs is not enough to say that you are breeding correct labs.
If you are selling them as good representative of the breed, you are lying to your puppy buyers and you are a scammer.
BTW, out of curiosity, do you tell your puppy buyers that you breed for money only? uhmmm....I thought so. You ARE ASHAMED to admit it to people you have in front of you. That should tip you off. Go ahead and post you name, website, phone number and address if you are not ashamed to admit who you are and that you breed for money only.
I'm yet to find a fellow breeder that is ashamed to admit they breed to produce a great dog.

There really is no unselfish reason for breeding as everyone has a personal reason for doing so, just like there is no unselfish reason for wanting a puppy. In fact, almost EVERYTHING anyone does on this planet is motivated by some inner personal ambition/desire. I am not sure how that justifies anything. I breed for myself, primarily because I have developed a certain standard for the dogs I wish to keep, and it would be difficult (but not impossible) to find what I want from another breeder. I breed once every 4-5 years because my dogs are primarily my companions and I am active with them for their entire lives. They live in the house, sleep on the bed, and are integral members of the family. I strive to produce a dog that is not only healthy and has a great temperament, but is also a nice representative of the standard from both a physical conformation standpoint and a work-ethic standpoint. My dogs are shown in conformation and my goal is for them to have both a breed Championship and the ability to get through an MH title. This requires a lot of commitment to my dogs, and while the titles/points are nice, the benefit is all in the journey because along the road to titles there is far more failure than success. Titles or no, I am enjoying my time with my dogs and am learning a lot along the way. I will never make a profit at this nor will I ever breed enough to make a name for myself, but the dogs are happy and I am providing others with the quality of dog I would want myself. I care where my puppies go and make sure that my puppy homes have similar standards to mine. So yes, while there is personal motivation behind my breeding, I would say the dogs live better lives than most because they are continually active and are an integral part of my life.

By contrast, many for-profit establishments have very little interest in the quality of lives their dogs live as long as they can produce puppies (money). Many people who breed for profit are breeding for specific traits that will sell, without any understanding of pedigrees, health issues or structure. If chocolate is the color of choice this season, that is the selection criteria for breeding stock. Profit-breeders (puppy mills/pet stores/etc.) are typically unconcerned about the type of homes the puppies are sold to, as long as the bill is paid in full. In many cases, making a profit requires breeding in large volumes, so proper care and socialization of puppies is kept to a minimum. Once the puppy buyer takes the puppy home, that is the last they will ever hear from their breeder, regardless of any health problems that may arise. Because of this, the breeder will continue to breed these problems because they have no interest in ever hearing about what they are producing and therefore continually make uninformed decisions. Saying that this is no worse than what some hobby breeders do does not make it right. I would hope that most people would try to lead by example rather than be on par with the bottom of the barrel.

Regardless of how people feel, until puppy buyers have higher standards, places like puppy mills and pet stores and byb’s will thrive. For things to change, puppy buyers will have to care more about price or convenience. They will have to consider their puppy an integral member of the family and understand the commitment that involves. Until that happens, it is unlikely they will be able to purchase a puppy from a reputable breeder because a reputable breeder will never sell them a puppy. For-profit puppy dealers are the only breeders who are willing to sell to anyone who can pay, because there is no commitment beyond the initial sale.

Yes, I am a "pet person."

No you are a parasite

I approached a show breeder about acquiring a new puppy and got a stern "no" and a lot of "helpful advice" about bettering the breed.

this is all just sour grapes because others refuse to allow you to live off their breedings.....

"I realize that you didn't single me out in particular, but you did make several common generalizations about profit breeders."

Actually, I specifically called out the biggest for-profit puppy brokers - puppy mills and pet stores - and if you can name one pet store or puppy mill that does not fit the generalization I will be amazed.

... those profits run out?

Maybe you've been lucky, and not had to endure the heartache that goes along with breeding.

When your first two bitches you are breeding , produce clefts, or produce any birth defects that all your clearances couldn't predict or prevent, or you lose your first bitch in an emergency c-section and maybe lose the entire litter as well, or you have a litter with herpes, or some innocent puppy buyer brings over parvo into your home, or the next two bitches you have don't pass their clearances, or they produce any of the above, or the first few keepers don't pass their clearances, and then puppies are coming back for refunds for whatever reason, those profits deplete. What will happen then? No doubt that you will start taking shortcuts. The more money you make, the more you want. It'll never be enough for you. I know others very much like you, spend very little, only the bare minimum to be "ethical", and then they start breeding whatever, whenever just to make up what they've lost over time. Sad sad situation. And you think you are on some get rich quick path right now, just wait, all good things come to an end. This hobby (whether it's our intent, or your intent) is not for the faint of heart. Having such a smug attitude yourself, it will be a rude awakening for you.

I wish you the best of luck in whatever you choose or not choose to do. Your life, your hobby of course, but you are smug, and your picking of this fight proves it.
As far as I can tell, most reputable breeders would not have approved you as a home had they known your intentions. I highly doubt you represented yourself honestly when acquiring your brood bitch collection.
So not only are you smug, but you are a fraud too.

OK, I am a person that has shown dogs for many years. Not labs originally, but have had labs as hunting dogs. Decided to get into labs for a dog to show. Not being a novice, I did go to reputable breeders who did ALL clearances...parents were champions....very prominent stud dogs...First dog, bad elbows, (although VERY smart dog.) second dog, really not show quaility after entering at many shows AND using handler, third dog...has a genetic defect that I don't want to go into. My point is..whether you are a pet breeder or a show breeder..there are dogs that can come up with some bad things...I spent about 4000 dollars just on the cost of the dogs. Not mentioning handling fees, clearances etc. The first dog died of cancer at 7. I have the other two..they have great temperments..., but I did buy them to show. They're great pets, but......???????

I find it interesting that you did internet research so you could speak the "lingo" and sound like you know what you are talking about.. You speak ...er... type the words, but I doubt you know what they really mean. That speaks fraud to me! I think you are trying to define yourself as different than a BYB, and you know you are not. What a damn shame.

I washed out three girls for things I bet you wouldn't have, after big "investments" in them. To me, it isn't so much about the money, it's more about integrity. All you are doing is contributing to pet over population.

Funny you post as Pet Person, and you come to a Breeder forum? Like to fight much? Maybe your dogs need you to let them out or something, you have spent a tremendous amount of time defending your self here today. Go hug one of your money making uterus' enclosed in a loving innocent Labrador instead of wasting your time here.

This is borrowed from Laura Dedering's site under her What is a Breeder link:

Malcolm B. Willis sums up what makes a good breeder in his book - Genetics of the Dog

What Makes A Dog Breeder
Today, dogs are generally controlled by man, so it is important to define what makes a breeder.

In a broad sense it is easy to be a dog breeder. All you need is a bitch, access to a stud dog of the same breed and you are in business. A great many people go through life doing little more than this, they have a bitch or more probably a series of bitches and possibly a stud dog and they mate these at intervals and sell the progeny. Even if one does this for a decade or more, even for a lifetime, one is not a breeder, merely a reproducer of dogs.

The dog world is full of reproducers of dogs, some of whom have even achieved a measure of success in producing show winners and champions, but they are not dog breeders. In many countries there are people who churn out litter after litter of a single breed or, more often, in a series of breeds, preferably breeds that are in demand and can command high prices. Such people are little better than puppy farmers and certainly do not merit the term dog breeder in other than a derogatory way.

A genuine dog breeder is someone who is avidly interested in dogs in general and a breed(s) in particular and seeks to:
a) learn all he/she can about the breed.
b) buy and live with that breed.
c) breed litters occasionally but always doing so for a purpose, attempting always to improve the quality of his/her stock.
d) correctly socialize, rear and feed his/her dogs, seeking to ensure that they are integrated into the household (irrespective of whether they are house or kennel dogs). To this end only such numbers as can be coped with will be kept.
e) pay considerable attention to the defects and failings in the breed and reduce their incidence by whatever genetic means are available.
f) sell puppies for fair prices and to ensure as far as is possible that they are sold to good homes and that there is a follow up service which guarantees help to buyers.
g) operative within a certain code of ethics whether breed club devised or not.
h) ensure that if one of his/her dogs ends up in rescue or unwanted that it is taken back and found a new home or remains in the breeders home or kennel.
i) to collaborate with other breeders for the general advancement of the breed. This does not prevent healthy competition with other breeders.
j) put the advancement of the breed above personal glory or power.

Pet person, I feel sorry for your children. What a lesson they must be learning, how to exploit dogs. That's the saddest part of this whole story. Children learn many of life's lessons through raising animals and following the example of their parents. Who knows how this lesson of exploitation will assimilate in their lives later on.

You will soon see the importance of showing once your pedigree's get washed out by breeding your pet dogs.

That is the problem with our society, everyone telling everyone that does not act, look, talk like them that they are wrong. I have been very active in this breed for 30 plus years, I know well some of the most respected Breeders and Judges in the Breed, I have traveled with a number of them. We all make choices that are often in our best interest and I am sorry to say not in the best interest of the Breed! I could write a book on things these folks have done that would be thought of as questionable. If we were all breeding to just improve what we have, then we would keep those and GIVE the rest to great homes. Never sell any. Oh, I know that argument.....if they don't pay they will not care about the pup. NOT TRUE! Some of my best homes have been freebies! Or the argument that in order to do this you have to get some money back. Well I also would like to say that I am not breeding for money, but really folks, what do you call it then? Free country that folk died so we could have freedoms, yes that also is a freedom to Judge others. God is the only one that should be doing that! Happy 4th of July to all!

This whole thing has been... enlightening?

I posted to try to dispel the myth that breeding for the standard is somehow less selfish than breeding for profit. But the mere mention of the word money seems to have thrown some into a frenzy of hatred. I think breeders in general are a little sensitive on the subject to start with. Maybe some breeders NEED to differentiate themselves from a "pet person" who contributes to overpopulation and thereby kills innocent shelter dogs. By saying "I ONLY breed to improve/preserve the breed!" they can convince themselves that their actions are justified.
So when I bring up the argument that all breeding has *equally* selfish motives, that no matter what it doesn't serve our DOGS, they panic and throw logic out of the window.

People have assumed horrible things about me, just because I don't show my dogs. I still take excellent care of them. I still do all of the necessary clearances (maybe more than some.) I have four dogs at my home- not four litters a year. I retire my girls after they have had 2-4 litters- not breed them back to back until they drop. I sell my litters on limited reg.- not full for a higher price. I socialize and play with my puppies and stand behind them after they go home. Just like any good hobby breeder.

Please, re-read the above paragraph if you are planning to post something hateful about me- I do the SAME things most hobby breeders do, I just do it for money instead of the excitement/thrill/joy of producing a champion. I'll say again- breeding for the breed doesn't benefit a single DOG in any way. It benefits the PEOPLE who love the breed. So it is just as self-serving as breeding for money.

I expected some resistance to that idea, and I was looking forward to the conversation. I didn't expect blind hatred. Some posters have been much more helpful than others. I can tell some people have a genuine passion for this hobby. Others seem to be weighing in just so they can be judgmental. The rest of this post is directed at them...

If my dogs are "money making uterus' enclosed in a loving innocent Labrador", then what are hobby breeders' dogs? "CHAMPION making uterus' enclosed in a loving innocent Labrador"?

How is what I do any more harmful to the pet population than what hobby breeders do? Really, if the only people who bred were hobbyists, there wouldn't be enough healthy lab puppies to meet the demand of the pet buyers, and they would end up settling for byb puppies, who would then be dumped at the pound when they developed health issues.

"We, reputable breeders, are doing something for the breed and the breed community, you are not."
"The breed" and "the breed community" are one and the same. Breeding for type doesn't benefit the DOGS at all. They aren't somehow better off because they fit the standard better. They would just as soon be mixed breed mutts. The standard exists to produce a dog that is aesthetically pleasing and useful to people. Breeding to the standard only benefits those people, not the dogs. No, I'm not contributing anything to the breed/breed community. I never claimed to be. But hobby breeders aren't doing anything better for the benefit of their DOGS, just for the BREED COMMUNITY.

"Pet person, I feel sorry for your children. What a lesson they must be learning, how to exploit dogs. That's the saddest part of this whole story. Children learn many of life's lessons through raising animals and following the example of their parents. Who knows how this lesson of exploitation will assimilate in their lives later on."
I could say "Hobby people, I feel sorry for your children. What a lesson they must be learning, how to exploit dogs. You're teaching them to value dogs based solely on their physical characteristics. Who knows how this lesson of exploitation for beauty's sake will assimilate in their lives later on. I hope you don't have daughters, who will generalize that message into "pretty is all that matters" and end up being emotionally damaged by your little hobby." See how silly that sounds? Like I was assuming that you're a bad parent, just because you breed for appearance. If you've read my posts, and really paid attention to what I've said, you would know that I take equally good care of my dogs as most hobby breeders. My kids are learning about the joys and responsibilities of living with dogs. And when they get older, they'll learn about sound business practices and ETHICS! Just because my personal breeding code of ethics places emphasis on health and temperament instead of appearance/standard doesn't mean my children are going to be damaged by it.

Wow Pet Person - I thought you had kids? How is it you have time to write novels on this forum every few minutes? Here's an idea - why don't you go and start your own forum or blog promoting your ideas and go leave us reputable breeders alone?

We will never agree with you and clearly you will never agree with us...

I've just finished reading this largely interesting and provocative thread and really did a lot of thinking about why I breed. I love it when someone causes me to think about myself and about why I am doing what I am doing. So I thank the Pet Owner for thoughts articulate and cogent enough that I paused to think before writing.

When some people started calling Pet Owner names, I really look harder at Pet Owner's comments. I believe that when people resort to name calling in debates, they have lost the debate and have nothing to add to the thought process. So I look harder at the winner's ideas. I look at how the Winner's idea might threaten me or how I might not be able to answer the critique effectively. So I really did think about why I breed.

So here's what I came up with. I breed first and foremost because I love bringing canine life into the world. I love raising puppies. I love training puppies. I love knowing that I am providing puppies with a really healthy start in life. I put a lot of effort into trying to produce healthy puppies. I love finding my puppies homes where they will love and be loved by humans and other animals.

I have always been one of the homes who get my puppies. I love spend time with my dogs, getting to know who they are, and allowing them an opportunity to play whatever fun games with me that we can find to do together. Some of them enjoy performance; some of them enjoy conformation; some of them enjoy running in the woods with me, sleeping with me, and eating good food.
All of them enjoy riding in the car and staying in hotel rooms with me.

So that's why I breed.

Does that make me a hobby breeder? Heck, I don't know. I think the term "hobby breeder" is largely a legal term regarding filing taxes. Maybe I'm a Love Breeder because I love doing what I am doing.

Maybe I am a Pet Owner. Usually that term means someone less knowledgeable and experienced than I am. But hey, maybe I am. I love my dogs like pet owners do.

Do I make money breeding? Honestly, I don't know or want to know. I think I might scare myself by looking at the amount I spend on my dogs.

Do I breed for the betterment of the breed? Well, I try to breed healthy, attractive dogs with temperaments suitable for families. Is that the betterment of the breed? Maybe but I really never pick my breeding stock with such a lofty goal as "Betterment of the Breed." How would I figure out what bettered the breed as a whole? I just do the best I can producing dogs that I like and families like.

Maybe I breed for the betterment of mankind because I honestly believe that dogs can make human beings better people if we let the dogs do so.

Thanks, Kate! I've always enjoyed your posts on here, so I was interested to read your input to this thread.

Kate, your post came from your heart and it was beautiful.

Goodness Kate! Several of your previous posts have angered me and a lot of good reputable breeders because of you don't quite grasp a lot of these concepts.

Today is no exception.

This pet breeder has no business coming on here and equating herself to truly reputable breeders. A few health tests don't make her reputable.

I breed out of a passion for this breed. When I count up the money made vs money lost I am lucky to break even.

Those who openly and unashamedly breed for money are stating that they will make the necessary adjustments when the money isn't rolling in anymore.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that those adjustments are never in the best interest of the dog.

You can try to rationalize your money making scheme with us, and clueless Kate can defend you all she wants.

You are both wrong. There is a HUGE difference between a pet breeder lining their bank accounts and a truly reputable breeder who gives as much (or more) than they take.

I did not defend anyone or anything. Frankly, I don't even know if I make money or not. I used the OP' very cogent and articulate posts as a stimulus for self-examination. I thanked him or her for the stimulus to examine myself and learn something about myself. Good debate should spur one toward self-examination. My own position is different from the one originally stated by the OP. And I'm glad I forced myself to listen and to articulate my own position.

Remember that personal attacks indicate that your own argument in a debate is weak, and essentially you have given up your own position in favor of personal attacks. Cute cartoons or clever quips about the other person look like what they are--a distraction from the fact that you have not articulated your position well enough that you think you have a chance to influence the views of listeners.

While the lengthy discussion thread may meet the technical definition of debate, I doubt it can be called a good debate. One side is claiming to be something they cannot or will not validate and their apparent knowledge of the subject matter shown in their posts do not support that claim.

Perhaps it is the higher blood pressure medication I am currently on, but I do find most of this amusing, while at the same time, I can give absolutely no credence to the posts by "Pet Person".

Perhaps if she/he would stop hiding behind their excuses to not reveal who they really are and state their concerns openly, they would achieve their goal. On the other hand, if their goal is just to stir the pot, they've already achieved it.

For those breeding for money and have no interest in proving your dogs:

1. Do you belong to a breed club so that you can list your kennel and/or your litters? If so, are you an active member of that club (i.e., do you contribute more than an annual membership fee and help make the club what it is)? If not, why do you pretend to be a club member?

2. Do you state on your website that your dogs will be shown (usually at some point in the future which never happens)? If so, have any of your dogs ever been shown?

3. Do you tell your puppy buyers your puppies will make good hunting companions? If so, how do you know?

4. Do you advertise your dogs with stacked photos to indicate you have an educated eye for a dog and the dogs are more than the pets they are?

We have "breeders" in our club that use the club to sell puppies and the only thing tying them to the club is their membership fee and a few posts on the chat list. These people infer their dogs are show quality by indicating they plan to show these dogs but they never do. If you truly are a pet person and are breeding pets for money, then at least be honest about it and stop riding on the backs of hard-working club members by trying to make it look like you are something you are not. Until that stops, I will never put breeders like this anywhere near the same category as a responsible hobby breeder, regardless of clearances.

Sick of you Pet Person!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No one cares Pet Person!!!!

You are directing this to every show breeder on this forum. Get over yourself!!!

From earlier posts: If I read your post correctly, you have 4 chocolate bitches, you breed over and over to your co owned stud dog, do you ever use a different stud dog? What are you going to do when your 4 breeding bitches are beyond breeding age? You don't keep puppies out of your litter, and if you did, you wouldn't get to use your for "free" co-owned stud dog on them... What is you plan for the future? Buy new stock to breed to your co owned stud dog or?

My question EXACTLY! I'm reading on...maybe there is a good answer in here. To be continued.

Money has never been a strong motivator for me so it's no surprise that money is not a strong motivator for me in breeding. I actually get pretty anxious when I have to deal with people about how much something is worth or not worth.

But, I contribute significant money every year to pay the pastor of our church (and also keep the church running). He's a really good guy, and in our current tough economic times made some significant sacrifices to continue to shepherd the souls of his church. But if we said he couldn't make a living at all, even he would have to move on to another church. So does this mean he is not ethical or would sacrifice our well-being for his economic gain? I'm not saying that Pet Owner is equivalent to the pastor of my church. Few people are; he's an exceptional human being. I am only saying that earning a living is not incompatible with being ethical.

Pet Person, I think the point your missing is...this is a HOBBY for most. I dont know too many people that PROFIT from a hobby, unless maybe they are a pool-shark, but then they might get a good butt-kickin' every now and then. So...a HOBBY is not for profit. I.E. Golf, knitting, dog showing, etc. We shell out THOUSANDS a year going to dog shows, PROUD to exhibit our "stock" whether we've breed none yet, or 500 times, it's not about how much I can get for my last litter, it's "I hope I bring home a ribbon this weekend". YOU are making it your work...is this your fulltime job? Dogs is not my fulltime job, thats for sure! I need to have 5 jobs to support my dogshow habit! So...maybe you need to get a "real" job, and take care of your "pets", maybe attend a dogshow, you might even like it, but it will put a pinch in your profits, thats no lie. Be what you wanna be...thats cool, but why are you looking for any of "us breeders" to back you? I don't really know why your trying to validate that your a puppy mill.

When you purchased your breeding stock from the breeder, did you tell that breeder that they were being purchased to start a breeding business?

Since you have no issues with breeding any dog as long as it has the appropriate clearances and is well cared for, are you are fine with anyone who purchases your dogs to use those puppies in a for-profit enterprise at some point?

That is what this thread is all about, the fact that Pet Person got turned down recently from a show breeder to purchase a puppy. That is why Pet Person is on their RANT about why is it any different for us to breed as show breeders and for them to breed for profit.

Do you offer lifetime support for your dogs? Do you accept them back in your home if the people who bought them cannot keep them?

Do you screen your puppy buyers before selling them? Or do you sell to any Tom/Dick/Harry who has the cash or check?

I think the difference is that you are a Pet breeder, not a puppy mill. The differences would be those above, not screening buyers, not caring what happens to the dog later in life, etc.

If you don't trust strangers to abide by your breeding practices, why would you be surprised when someone does not trust you to abide by theirs? Depending on the breeder, you already admit you do not abide by their breeding practices (proving the dogs before they are bred), which is probably why you were denied the puppy.

Every breeder has the right to determine where their dogs will go - you do it yourself. I would never put any one of my puppies in a home that did not meet my standards (and your practices do not meet my standards), regardless of whether they are acceptable to someone else or not. If you do not want people questioning why you do what you do, then you will have to accept the fact that other people have the right to have different standards and will never agree with yours.

I can only control what I do and try not to worry about what everyone else is doing because a lot of it is none of my business. It does not mean I agree with or respect people's practices. I followed the example that was set for me, one I respected, and that is the example I choose to set for others.

I have an idea who "pet person" is...if not, I swear she has a twin sister.

What exactly is your health guarantee like, I wonder?


Pet Person, however similair your "pet contract" may be to mine is irrelevant, MY point is, YOU are putting in writing, LIFETIME GUARANTEE of a gentic clearance that ISN'T going to change.. to makes YOU look better, and to makes your puppy buyer FEEL better. I.E. My breeder gives me a "lifetime guarantee", does yours? Really? I dare you to put a lifetime guarantee on something that would REALLY matters. You wont. Knowone can cuz shit happens, even to the best of the best. Your ridiculous, and your praying on the ignorance of innocent puppy buyers. Why not just state that the puppy's parents are EIC clear, etc, and educate them of what that means, but to boast that your offering them this big "deal" Lifetime Guarantee... sheezus!

Your argument is flawed because NO ONE said they are breeding to benefit a SINGLE dog YOU SAID THAT and you keep on saying that. Breeders that show take on the responsibility for maintaining the breed standard, to keep a lab looking like and having traits of a lab but don't confuse that with "pretty is all that matters". Structure and function go hand in hand and it's the whole package that is aesthetically appealing. When you breed without someone other than yourself judging your dogs you stand to move away from what you see as aesthetically appealing. You will never understand that concept and you don't care. If everyone took on your practices of breeding we would eventually have dogs that barely resembled the breed in structure or function.

The breed standard is maintained one dog at a time and it's an honorable goal for the masses. Your goal is self serving, for self profit. you exploit dogs. Is it ok with you if your daughter becomes a prostitute, having sex for profit with no goal of love or children as long as she's cleared of STD's and her pimp takes good care of her? It's called having MORALS or ETHIC and there are underlying reasons why we must have morals. When one is immoral they have to expect resistance to their ideas.

Aw! I knew it was in here somewhere! You SPECIFICALLY state the differance between your LIFETIME guarantee and your limited guarantee. You can't bs a bs'er! You are praying on innocent public letting them think they are getting some swingin' deal buying one of your pups!

And I quote you saying: We have a lifetime guarantee for EIC, PRA and CNM (since the parents are tested), and we guarantee hips and elbows for 26 months. Our guarantee doesn't mention TVD, but our dogs all have good echos, and if there were a problem in one of our puppies, we would certainly back it.

"No one seems to be able to accept the fact that I get both enjoyment and profit from my dogs, even without proving them."

That is the huge difference between "Pet Person" people who breed litters and the true fancier. Responsible breeders strive to maintain all the wonderful attributes of the breed which make the breed what it is. Without proving a dog, you have no idea (and no concern) for the qualities which you are producing when you whelp a litter from unproven dogs.

Ignorance is a terrible thing. I will not try to argue with such a puffed-up boor about any of her confusing and contradictory statements since only a fool will try to argue with an ignorant person.

Unlike Pet Person, who has spent such an extraordinary amount of time at the computer to go on and on and on, my time is precious to me, my family and my dogs. I choose to spend it with them.

If you only have 4 breeding bitches and one of which I believe you said is still to young to breed so that makes it 3, how can you possibly supply the masses you claim are looking to buy pets? You are not helping at all! How many puppies can you be producing and selling in one year with 3 bitches? Considering all goes well and they each have a good size healthy litter you would be producing around anywhere from 20 to 30 puppies a year. That does not seem to be making a huge difference in the reduction of puppy mills.

You stated: I never said your goal to maintain the breed isn't a worthy reason to breed. I am grateful to the lab breeders who came before us, and yes, to the hobby breeders who continue the breed today. But if the only breeders with nice, health tested bloodlines were hobby breeders, there would be a severe shortage of quality puppies, and pet buyers would turn to puppy mill/pet store/byb breeders etc.

Pet Lady, have you checked the overflow in shelters lately? These are many dogs who people bought from for-profit byb's like yourself! I think NOT that there is an under abundance of Lab pups out there, and if there were, good! Let them go rescue one!

I don't hate you, It just sounds like your ignorant. But, you are intitled to your own opinion of yourself, just as well as I am entitled to my opinion of yourself.

Well, I think betterment of the breed is not the only reason people breed...even show breeders. Maybe to win, but what I've seen is not for the betterment of the breed. If you look at most well-known breeders' websites, it states that we only sell pet puppies on a spay neuter contract...show puppies go into our show/breeding program. The price is usually 1000-1500 dollars....If someone else is selling puppies, from parents with all clearances I don't see the difference. Because who really knows what the best lab is....the one that wins in the show ring, or the one that wins in the field, the one that is the hunting companion, or the one that is the beloved family pet????????????????? Then, when you buy a puppy that is considered show quality, it's just your tough luck that it didn't turn out to be show quality.

*Pet Person* goes by that name but in essence, she's a Back Yard Breeder. BYB.

Even if she had a beautiful puppy with correct conformation in her pet litters by accident, she wouldn't even know it.

I would refer to her as BYB, not the name she's using. We sell some of our pups to nice pet people who aren't looking to breed them normally. Someone who breeds their pets just to make is a back yard breeder; apologies for repeating myself.

I now know what some of you mean when you say *crawl in a hole or under a rock* or call someone a *troll*. I normally think it's rude but not in this case where she continues to come back and fuel the fire all over this board.

I missed this entire thread because I've been busy. I can't believe you're all still feeding her though. Refuse to answer her and go to the posts that have merit is my advice for what it's worth. This BYB is a trouble maker and a deliberate one. There is only one person to give her a small amount of credit but that person is lacking as much common sense as this BYB.
BYB, take a hike already. Please!

~jmho

Researcher, you need to check yourself, I think your sorely confused.
"However, thank goodness we live in a free country where people can choose where they want to buy a puppy. In believing that people should choose one of the two alternatives (reputable breeder or shelter), you are actually encouraging puppy mills and true byb's"

That is the up there with the dumbest thing i've read all day. This Pet Lady thinks she an attribute to the breed? Doing her "part" in populating pet buyers homes with her "quality" chocolates? Grrrrreat! My point to this mute point, is step up Pet Breeder, get involved with your Labrador community, do some good...but she wont, because she doesnt give a rats a-- about Labradors or the community. She'd rather hide on this forum, get the attention she isn't getting at home, while watching her bank account dwindle because maybe she's in between litters now, hell, she's probably on food stamps too!