Just have to get away from the other thread.

Having pride in what you do is not a bad thing. A job well done at work is something to be proud of, nothing wrong with being proud of a beautifully landscaped yard, having the talent for sewing, photography, and other endless pursuits is all worthy of pride. It's not a bad thing to be proud of your efforts and has nothing to do with having a big ego.

I wasn't trying to insult you by calling you proud. I think it's great for you to work to breed a dog that you can be proud of. I'm proud of my pet puppies, although you probably wouldn't be. I was just trying to make the point that breeding for something *you* can be proud of doesn't benefit your dogs any more than breeding for money benefits mine. Sorry to hijack your post, but I really don't want you to think I was trying to berate you for being proud of what you do. I was using ego in the Freudian sense of the word, not the commonly used "you have big ego" sense. I really wasn't trying to be insulting.

Very good.

Taking pride in something pushes us to the next level.

Having pride in what we do always encourages us to continually do better.

Pride and Passion fuel the best of the best. Always have, always will.

When you have pride in something, you take care of it better. Think of a home, a car, or a piece of clothing. Your home could be 100 years old and very small, your car could be a Yugo, and your prized piece of clothing could be a hand me down. You will take care of it if you treasure it. Pride and passion motivate you to care for it. Not return on investment.

Nice sentiments, but it doesn't quite apply to the situation. Hobby breeders are proud of their show prospects.
Really, the kind of pride you're talking about (for an old car, a hand-me-down shirt, etc.) sounds more like the pride I have in my dogs/puppies. They may not be champions, but I'm proud of them anyway. Return on investment motivates me to breed them. Pride and passion motivates me to take care of them, and make sure that my decisions are ethical.

Go away Pet Person!!!!

Years ago I had someone approach me to buy a female to breed- they competed in no venue at all and did nothing with their dogs other than love them and breed them for profit. I said no- a personal choice.

Competition, regardless of the venue, for me, is used to determine what specimens are worthy of being reproduced. You state you could go get CH's on your dogs or whatever titles you mentioned to legitimize yourself in some way. Well, you're no different than the person saying I bred a great foal- capable of winning the Kentucky Derby- yet if that colt never runs a race- how do you know? The avenues we've been given to prove our dogs are worthy of being reproduced are endless. You proudly claim AKC registered - great- you know the pedigree of your pups, yet this is only as good as what is behind that puppy. And honestly, when you get more than 3 generations back- it means mostly nothing anyway. So Einstein might be my uncle but that don't make me no genius myself. It's ridiculous and actually insulting to those of us who try desperately hard to produce a dog capable of titling in a venue to state that yours are just as good. Put your money where your mouth is... oh, but that gives you less net income.....

I know I could never get AKC Ch titles on my girls. I said I could probably get an IABCA title on all of them, but we all know that is pretty meaningless. Not exactly like claiming they could win the Kentucky Derby.

I've never claimed to know that my dogs are "just as good" as yours competition-wise. I would have to show them to try to prove them before I could know that. I don't assign value to them based on their conformation, though. I value my dogs and advertise their puppies on the basis of their health and temperaments, and in those areas, I am confident that my dogs are on par with yours. For you, competition is necessary to determine what specimens are worthy of being reproduced. If the only dogs who were allowed to reproduce were bench or field champions, there would be nowhere near enough Lab puppies for the families who want one. I personally feel like those families deserve to be able to own a Lab that fits their needs- and they don't all need show quality pets.

For someone who doesn't care about our way of doing things with our dogs and thinks their way is right, it's interesting how you want to be part of this community by posting. If my ideals were so dramatically different than a particular groups, I would certainly not try to associate with them in any way, shape or form...even if it's guise of trying to substantiate your flawed way of thinking.

I think I've been pretty honest about by reasons for posting. A show breeder turned me down for a puppy, and I got a little offended. So I came here to make the point that hobby is not necessarily a better reason to breed than profit. Of course, several members of the hobby community didn't accept that point very easily. I'm obviously not here to join the group, I'm here to challenge the prevailing notion in the community that hobby= ethical and profit= unethical. Obviously I like a challenge.

I would say that you don't want to be challenged. Not here and not with your pet producers. Why breed Labs if you don't care how they compare to what the standard is or how they rank amongst the better bred Labs? You could breed mongrels and make nice pets. People think they are out buying a Lab from you - and it could be that it is just a dog that in some way resembles and acts like a Lab but far from the better Labs that are out there.

So do you sell your pups with limited registration or full? Do you take your pups back if there are health issues or if the family can't keep the dog any more?

It's great that you get health clearances on your dogs so that gives your buyers some security. Just curious if you provide any sort of warranty or "first refusal" for a dog that the family has to relinquish.

MWK

This is what I do not not understand - why would you be offended? You've already stated you screen your own puppy buyers and would not trust them to abide by your code of breeding ethics, which is why your puppies are sold on Limited Registration. You are not the only breeder out there with a code of ethics and standards. All reputable breeders have them, and each breeder has the right to expect their puppies will go into homes that meet their particular standards. Why is it offensive that you did not meet this breeder's standards? They certainly have the right to set the bar anywhere they want, and if you want to set your own bar you will have to accept this and move on.

I wasn't so much offended by the refusal as the holier-than-thou speech she tried to give me. Basically saying that hobby breeders breed for pure, unselfish reasons, and that it was scummy of me to want to breed for selfish purposes. So I set out to shed light on the fact that hobby breeding is just as selfish.

None of that really matters - they have their opinion, you have yours, and they do not match. It sounds like both of you have attitudes, which is fine. There is nothing stated out there that we all have to agree. Move on.

To me, the point of competition is to evaluate one's own stock against everything out there to get a better picture of where you are and where you need to go. It also helps develop one's own eye on what a good Labrador is. The point of continual participation is so that we can evaluate our own breeding programs and make educated breeding decisions - a dog does not have to be a big winner to be a breeding candidate. For one thing, that is only one piece of the puzzle. Participation in some field activity should be done to evaluate work ethic and basic skills to ensure it is maintained throughout the generations. Health testing should be evaluated throughout the generations.

There are plenty of specialty winning show champions that should never be bred, for various reasons. And I know several people who have brood bitches that have never been shown that have produced very well. The breeders understand their dogs and their lines and because they have been active with them they can make educated guesses as to what certain matings will likely produce. It is unlikely pet owners who enjoy their dogs but have never really evaluated them have this knowledge and therefore may get lucky and may not. If I were a puppy buyer, I would not be willing to invest in this - my chances would be just as good at the local animal shelter.

Pet person said "I personally feel like those families deserve to be able to own a Lab that fits their needs- and they don't all need show quality pets."

Who ever said we were selling our show quality puppies as pets?

Our pet puppies *might* be show potential but we look for the puppy or puppies with the most show potential for our keepers. The rest go to families or buyers that want a beautiful pet. Something is wrong with that?

Show potential pups or their littermates means that it's a well put together pup, the pup's parents have many clearances, possibly both are titled on both or either end. The pups are temperament tested, their conformation is great making them a BEAUTIFUL PET!! I don't deliberately sell show potential to a pet buyer. I don't breed for that reason and neither does any breeder that wants their pups to eventually compete in the show ring.

We don't get a show potential pup from every litter all the time. Anyone who claims they do 100% of the time is full of themselves. Other times we might get 2 or 3 if we're very lucky out of maybe a larger litter.

If you feel IABACA titles are achievable by your dogs, why not go for it or compete in UKC? Do something besides breed and sell pups. You could do obedience or put a CGC and or a TDI on your dogs. Go visit ill patients and give them a reason to get better. Try going to a few specialties and see how your dogs compare to the winners.

You never replied what clearances you do and you once again ruined a thread that valwhalen began to get away from the nonsense on the other. You owe her an apology.

Thanks *pet person* for being a royal pain. Please, don't undermine others posts. It's not becoming. Start another thread or fresh post.

You can't stop can you? What makes you think that ANY title, including an International title is meaningless? What is meaningless is that you sit home on your butt, breed your dogs to each other, and sell puppies. God forbid you spend the money to go to a venue, travel, gas, hotel, entry fees, etc...and do anything of importance with your dogs! You make me ill. And I quote one of your stupid comments:

I know I could never get AKC Ch titles on my girls. I said I could probably get an IABCA title on all of them, but we all know that is pretty meaningless. Not exactly like claiming they could win the Kentucky Derby.

Your so lame.