My bitch prog.# where 0.54 ng last Tue July 5th. On Thursday July 7th she was 4.0 ng. I bred her yesterday (side by side AI) and also today and will probably do it again on Monday. The reason I have been doing it every day is that I have only been able to get very little out of him (yesterday I got 4 ml, today how ever I got 15 ml)
Any suggestions on how many days you would do AI?
TIA

The best advise would be to do another PG to confirm ovulation. yes, breed on Monday.

I am actually going to skip that and take my chance's!!! Based on that she went from 0.54 in Tue and up to 4.0 on Thur I assume she is already ovulating.
TIA

First of all, I think you will be fine with one more breeding, but that's not what caught my eye.

A 4 ml collection is more than enough. I never collect more than 3 or 4 ml on any of my dogs because a few are used regularly and I don't want to milk them dry.

My repro (and Dr Hutch) have both said that no one gets a gold medal for collecting the most semen. It's wiser to get 3 or 4 ml of sperm rich fraction since a canine uterus only holds about a teaspoon of fluid. Collecting 20 cc's doesn't increase the odds of puppies.

It's better for the stud dog that way too.

Well I ONLY got 4 ml out of him total yesterday!! But I checked in on microscope and there was allot of sperms in there though.
Thanks for the answers!!

Sounds like you are getting the sperm rich fraction...which is what you want. The volume comes from the third fraction which is protratic fluid...the only it time it serves importance is to give you enough volume to get the AI done.

With regards to you collecting 15 ml...I would stop collecting after 6-8...you are just diluting your semen and your bitch is not going to hold that amount of fluid anyway.

Good luck and best wishes for a large and lovely litter.

Sounds like you are getting the sperm rich fraction...which is what you want. The volume comes from the third fraction which is prostratic fluid...the only it time it serves importance is to give you enough volume to get the AI done.

With regards to you collecting 15 ml...I would stop collecting after 6-8...you are just diluting your semen and your bitch is not going to hold that amount of fluid anyway.

Good luck and best wishes for a large and lovely litter.

Thank you! Well I would have stopped but it just kept on coming and I didn't want to waste it!!
But to the original question... for how many more days should I breed her??

LOL...well you were not wasting anything. The excess beyond your 2nd fraction is not semen rich. Depending on the size of the dog the prostratic fluid can be as little as 1 ml or as much as 80 ml.

I have a dog that will give me very little prostratic fluid at times. Very similar to what you got on your first collection. I keep a bottle of extender handy in case I need to add volume to a collection for a side by side.

So she probably ovulated later on Thursday or early Friday if I am reading your post correctly. Given that the eggs generally are not able to be fertilized until 48 hours after ovulation...you are probably looking at Sat/Monday breedings or Sunday/Tuesday depending on when she ovulated...in other words since you have the stud dog handy....I would be done after Tuesday.

I would be sure she ovulated and has passed a 5ng. Some girls stall or plateau for several days. I always make sure my girl hits a 5ng or higher before assuming she ovulated. I know of too many breeders that missed with their girls because they stopped testing before seeing a 5ng.

As long as you have the boy there you could continue to breed every other day for a week longer too.

I would base it on the last progesterone level which shows ovulation. If she hit's let us say 30ng next level, you should be able to safely stop breeding. That's my suggestion for what it's worth.

Wow are you saying she could be 4.0 ng for several more days and up to a week?
I am going to take my change on this one, also as I am doing side by side AI and semen will live up to 5 days in the bitch. I probably will do the last AI on Mon or Tue.

I have had 3 girls stall at 4.0ng and even seen their numbers drop a bit over 1.5 - 2 wks before they jump to 5.0ng and over to ovulate. I've also had bitches that didn't take that I may not have tested until they were over 5.0ng. whether they didn't ovulate and missed or missed for some other reason I will never know but the possibility exists that they did not ovulate.

Thank you all for the answers!! Based on the last time she was bred she ovulated pretty early. I remember the last time she was bred she was 2.7 on Thur and 10 on Mon after. So I assume she has already ovulated. We will see in 4 or 5 weeks if she hasn't ovulated yet!

Confirming ovulation also helps you nail down due dates. Hildur, the girls don't always do what they have done before, or ovulate in similar patterns. If you were having semen shipped in, I bet a stud dog owner would want confirmation that she has indeed ovulated. I am sure since you are using your own boy, that you will cover her, but I would want to know for sure she ovulated myself. Good luck!

As not all of us can afford several progesterone testings, sometimes you just need to take a chance especially when you know your bitch and that fresh semen has a life span of 5-7 days in the bitch

Hildur, I think you are right, and save your wrist too ;-)

Thanks guys! No I am not using my own stud but a stud owned by a friend of mine. And yes if I where to ship a semen over that would be a little bit different, but I am doing a side by side AI.
I can not believe that she will stay 4.0ng for more than a week if that's the case. Next Thur will be one week since she was 4.0ng and if I do my last AI on Mon it might stay in the bitch alive for 5 to 7 days like TookTheChange said.... keep your fingers crossed

TookTheChance, I am confused by your remark. Progesterone testing for ovulation timing is one of the less expensive, and most important parts of a successful breeding. If you "take a chance" you could miss your girl, and we all know how disappointing that can be. I had a slow riser, and her next cycle she rose very fast.
I wonder, if you can't afford a couple of progesterone tests to confirm ovulation, how can you afford to breed at all? I know it's nice to save money on a few tests, we all do, but the one to confirm ovulation is not the one to skimp on. I promise I am not being snarky, it is an honest question.

When you say slow riser.... how many days are we talking about?? And what was her numbers that you tested her before she hit 5.0ng?

One bitch my dog bred to rose to a 3.8 and then dropped back to baseline for almost a week and a half. She rose again to about 10 days later, was bred and had a beautiful litter. We definitely would have missed her if not for the test after 3.8.

Another bitch my dog was bred to rose to a 3.5, the bitch owner asked for shipped semen on her assumption of ovulation day. That bitch missed and the semen looked fantastic on her end so she thinks her bitch stalled out to cause the miss. She missed out on an entire litter trying to save the cost of one more progesterone test. Doesn't seem worth it to me.

That said, I have bred my boys to my own girls before and I like to make sure they are really covered. At least with the bitches I've done (and this is not scientific proof for all Labs worldwide). If the first breedings were done at the right time, she will no longer be as receptive to the AI. When a girl is ready she will be open, relaxed, flag, and stand. I believe once her eggs have been fertilized her body must emit a hormone to tell her to quit acting like a hussy. It's true for the girls at home. If you don't breed, it seems like they are receptive and flirty with your boys forever, but if you successfully breed they turn off the flirt pretty quick.

If your girl has been open, flirty, flagging, etc for all of these breedings and suddenly turns it off Monday or Tuesday, I'd bet dollars to donuts that she's ovulated and there are little buns baking in her oven. If she's still a flirty mess on Monday or Tuesday I'd definitely draw a progesterone to see if she stalled.

A dog's reproductive system was made to reproduce. If her progesterone stalled, she would continue to be receptive for much longer. Of course the good thing with fresh semen is that since her progesterone number you are looking at was a few days ago, any breeding tomorrow or Tuesday would likely live long enough to still catch her provided the boy is firing on all cylinders.

Good luck with your breeding, and don't milk that boy dry anymore. He will be much happier in the long run.

Stud Dog Owner, you have some excellent, valid points and experiences in your post. Sharing those might help many breeders in the long run so kudos to you!


I always want to reach over a 5 for a breeding. Progesterone levels are $125 here but one more is not going to kill my purse in the end. It could make the difference in a litter or no litter.

I've heard of two breeders repeating this mistake more than once with the same girl. They then think she might be infertile. A repro vet will tell them to wait for a 5 or more and she becomes pregnant after not a litter for years. Sometimes it's done by SI when it wasn't needed after all. Any girl should be tested until at least 5 if the breeding is important to the bitch owner.

I totally agree you bitch owner. There's one more thing to consider too.

Ovulation doesn't always truly happen at 5. Ovulation is actually proven to be between 5 and 10-12. By breeding before 5 (with fresh semen) we are breeding a little early but counting on the longer life cycle of fresh semen.

It's usually OK because most girls jump from 5 to 10 in a matter or a day or so....still, if you breed at a 4 because you are afraid you'll miss a girl, she could stall and be at 5 in 36 hours, but she might wait another 36 hours to hit 10 and ovulate (if she's a later ovulator). Next, her eggs will need 48 to 72 hours to mature and allow fertilization. That's
36+36+48(or 72) so 120 hours or 144. With fresh, all of this is OK, because fresh should cover all of this.

Now, granted, these numbers above are the extremes, and not typical. Usually a girl will rise from 5 to 10 in a day and that 72 hours I calculated from 4 to 10 would be drastically reduced. However, I have seen the extreme numbers happen with slow risers before.

I always like to remember the rules for frozen semen. When using frozen, to maximize the chances for fertilization the breeding is done 4 days after ACTUALLY hitting 5. Not 3.8, not 4.2. The repro tests until 5 is seen. This 4 day window after 5 is to allow her eggs the 24-36 hours to mature, but also to allow extra time in case she doesnt ovulate until 8 or 10.

Tank you all for your answers!! I totally agree if I where using chilled or frozen of course I would have to wait until she would hit 5.0ng.... since I am using fresh and doing side by side I will take my chances! She was a pretty quick riser last time she was bred. I can also tell that she has reduced the interest she has in the male. I will do the last AI tomorrow and than the waiting game starts!

Change of plans! LOL I will do the last AI on Wed.... I think she should be well covered by that time!!!! :p

Little update... Took my bitch to do an ultrasound today and yup she is pregnant!! So we are expecting puppies around September 10th!!

Hey Hildur. Good luck with your litter.

Question for you: From your first post I would guess that your bitch ovulated July 8th (same day as my bitch). You say your girl is due on the 10th of Sept? How did you arrive at that date?

I calculated my girl's due date as the 8th of Sept. (both July and August have 31 days)

Trying to determine what days to ask off at work.

As you may be able to tell. I am definitely not a mathlete.

Hey there! Thanks and good luck on your litter too!!
Well from my calculation she should be due on the 8th, but my veterinarian said that she felt the embryo's where little younger than I thought... that's why I added two more days. But when thinking back you are correct. If she ovulated on the 8th the embryo's are little younger than from my calculation as I am counting from ovulation day and not counting from when the eggs where ready to be fertilized which should have been 2 days later, so I guess she is due around Sept 8th
What was your bitch progesterone # on Friday the 8th of July?? Where you able to pin point the ovulation day?
TIA

The 8th of July she was 5.18. We'll see I guess.

It might have made a difference Hildur. You should have an idea when she whelps.


http://www.cloneusa.com/insemination.html

You might want to read George Govette's take on when to breed. Most breeders have good luck with him although find him abrasive at times. Every bitch and cycle can be different. [/url]

*PINPOINTING THE TIME OF INSEMINATION

There are many systems available for the breeder to calculate the most optimum time for inseminations, but most accurate by far is Blood Serum Progesterone levels attained by RIA (Radio Immuno Assay) or EIA (Enzyme Immuno Assay). CLONE highly recommends the RIA method as you do not have to test the bitch every day or even every other day which is very costly and time consuming. CLONE uses only this method because it is the most accurate and you can pinpoint the time of ovulation with only a couple of progesterone tests.

There is no set progesterone value for breeding a bitch such as 8, 12, 18, 25 ng/ml etc. Some bitches must be bred at 6 ng/ml and some bitches as high as 50 ng/ml. Each bitch has to be treated as an individual and should be bred between 48 and 72 hours after you calculate the day of ovulation. The reason for this is that when a bitch ovulates her ovum are immature and can not be penetrated by sperm until they are mature, which in the dog takes between 40 - 60 hours.

CLONE, the first company to use progesterone testing in bitches, with over 25 years research and experience, show that the majority of bitches ovulate between 3 - 5 ng/ml and a few ovulate between 6 - 8 ng/ml. However, there is only a 24 hour period of difference between these two groups of 3 -5 and 6 -8 ng/ml. (the earliest and the latest ovulating bitches).

Since chilled and fresh semen live far longer than thawed frozen semen in the uterus the best time to breed with fresh chilled semen is
36 - 48 hours after the blood serum progesterone level shows ovulation as the semen can be inseminated in advance of the maturation of the ovum. If you are going to breed twice, breed first time 24 - 36 hours after ovulation and then again the next day. There is no reason to skip a day as you did with a natural breeding, because you have pinpointed the time of the most fertile period. If there are complications with shipping and arrangements due to holidays you could also breed at 48 hours after ovulation and then again 24 hours later. *

[/url]
Thanks for the info. I actually skipped doing the AI on Wed and did it on Tue in stead.
The only thing I was afraid of was that I didn't test her again after she reached 4.0ng so I wasn't sure when she might have hit or gone over 5.0ng, I decided I wanted to take the change. Some told me to test her again to see when she hit 5.0ng... as they said some bitches can stall, but she obviously did not.

Again, thank you all for your answers!

That's the difference between your bitch and mine... you knew she hit 5.0ng on Fri and I only knew that mine hit 4.0ng on Thur.... I didn't test my bitch again so I wasn't sure on when she hit 5.0.... she could have hit 5.0 on Sat morning.... but I think I will still be counting from Friday as ovulation day.
What days did you breed her?

If I were using chilled I would have bred on Sunday and Tuesday, but I was using fresh semen that looked GREAT under scope so I changed my battleplan.

Last time I did a side by side I bred on LH surge day and ovulation day to test the "breed early for girls theory". Got 7 girls and 4 boys. This time I bred on the evening of July 6th. She was only a 1.6 early that morning, but this was likely her LH surge day. That afternoon she was flirting, flagging, and standing very well. She accepted the pipette easily. I bred her on Friday and the pipette practically fell in. LOL!! It was like...."Don't stand too close....you'll fall in!". Let's just say she was VERY accepting of the pipette. Then I bred once more for good measure on Sunday too.

I'll say, her progesterone Friday was drawn at 6:00pm and her progesterone Wednesday the 6th was not even 2 at 7:30 am. I think our girls are very close. It will be neat to see when they whelp.

I see!! My girl was 4.0ng early Thursday morning, so I guess she might have ovulated on Fri... maybe late on Friday or early Saturday!
Do you know if your girl is pregnant??
Send me an email... will be interesting and nice to keep track of you as your girl is probably due around the same time as mine!

We believe she is preggers. We are doing an ultrasound soon, but she's showing all of the typical early signs of a bitch in whelp. Subtle behavior changes, changes in appetite, rosy nipples, larger vulva. She's also looking a bit fuller than normal. It's still too early to tell for sure by eyeballing, but all early signs point to yes.

I would love to know who your bitch is and who she was bred to!!

I'll shoot you an e-mail. :)