For the breeders like myself. As one breeder put it. Network, network. I moved from New York to central Virginia. We had a litter of pups 8 weeks ago, I got 3 calls. If I were in New York they would have been sold. I had previous buyers for 2, I'm keeping one. I had a yellow boy, no calls. I took him to a horse show today and sold him. If I had a truck load of pups, I could have sold them all. Don't get crazy. I interviewed the people for several hours, got the website of their horse farm, riding, training facility checked it out and all is well. The point I'm trying to make is, you don't sell pups out of the truck of your car. But, sometimes you do have to get their little faces out there, up close and personal. From this sale I have a potential future puppy buyer. I don't breed that often, maybe once a year for a show/breeding dog, it's not my lively hood. These people appreciate a well breed dog. Just for your info. don't get discouraged.

I am in the South also, always have a waiting list, and hope it never comes to that. Well, it just would not. Did your web page not bring calls ? Know this time of year is very slow.

I'm from Central VA also and I promise you it would never to come to something like this.....

By taking your new puppy prospects out to handling classes or obedience classes for socialization is a way to get them out there. Other dog enthusiasts see these sweet babies and that is another form or networking.

Yes, I agree. Some of the people who are entered in these shows compete in the Olympics. This is not some back woods show. Breeders take puppies to dog shows to possibly sell a puppy. What is the difference. By selling a puppy to this individual not only will he get the best care, and love. He will be exposed to some of the highest ranking horse shows. I had spoken to many people at the show who currently have, and had Labs. I think these people are Lab enthusiasts.
Some of you should come down on off your high horse, no pun intended. Never say never.

In addition. The pup will be living on a 26 acre horse farm, which is a show facility for training horses, lessons, showing, at rated shows.

There are days when I would like someone to sell me to live as a pet on one of those horse farms...

I just want to say to those that are being judgemental, HORSE PEOPLE make the best dog homes !

In my previous life before Labs I have purchased some wonderful Aussie pups from trainers and other horse people at Quarter Horse shows .. registered dogs, well looked after and socialized because they travelled to shows from a young age, smart as a whip, lovely to look at and they became important members of my family ... and a great working instinct to boot. No flames, but I see nothing wrong with this .. you just have to look at how the people care for their horses and handle them at shows to know that the pups will be well looked after .. And you saw everyone every weekend at the shows ...

There are good owners out there. I do find people who say we have 30 acreas, are the ones who think they can let the dogs run free. Scares me. I own land but my dogs have a fence around them for protection. I do see alot of horse owners with dogs running around with them. Mostly the Jack Russell.

Idiocy knows no boundaries ...

I will say however, that my dogs were always with me on the farm when I rode, always in the barn with me (because I was there 12 hours or more a day 7 days a week unless at shows) and worked my horses .. I rarely took them to shows because they were happier on the farm getting treats from my boarders, stealing the carrots they brought for their horses and swimming in the water troughs to stay cool ...

Sue,something I have noticed is that barn owner dogs who live on the farm have very different behavior regarding horses than boarder dogs, but I have still seen some problems, including dogs who chase horses. I have been riding for long enough to see first hand a lot of problems. I have made my share, and a lot of what I know comes from own mistakes.

Keep it up! This farm has 5 acres fenced in for their other two RESCUE dogs. Why do people have a need to find fault. I'm grateful to have found a home for my puppy and new friends. Why do horse people own Jack Russell dogs?

Did the horse kill a hound or dog? My friend fox hunts and the only dogs out there are the hounds. Dogs don't belong at a hunt. We could dispute this until the cows come home, as far as I'm concerned I can sleep at night because of my decision. Years ago people let their dogs run at shows, not the shows I go to now. The horses are too valuable for them to get spooked by a unleashed dog.

Linda, I am not finding fault with you or your choices; I simply telling your what I have experienced. I've had both dogs and horses for most of my life, and my experience spans over half a century.

If you ask a lot of questions, you may find a wonderful horse owner to adopt your puppies. I like to think that I am such a person. But most breeders have little experience with horses or horse owners so they don't think of the right questions to ask.

The only horse sport I know that involves dogs is hunting. Jack Russells, Corgis, Bassets, Beagles and Foxhounds are associated with various kinds of hunting, which is probably why you still see these breeds among horse owners.

The legend of dogs and horses lingers on despite the fact that hunting with horses is largely ceremonial and social at this point. In the places where hunting on horseback still occurs, the hounds and other dogs are managed by a "whipper in" who uses large whips and guns to assure that the dogs remain in and hunt as a pack. These hunting dogs are specially trained to hunt in packs, to avoid the horses, and to hunt only what is being hunted (e.g., foxes or rabbits). These are trained dogs doing their job, not dogs running frantically to keep up with horses on trail rides (which I have seen occur to the point of heat exhaustion on the part of the dog).

Most horse shows do not allow dogs or insist that the dogs be kept on lead--for the safety of dogs, humans, and horses.

Linda, the last time I looked hounds were considered dogs by the AKC. I admit some of them look nothing like the AKC standard for Foxhounds but they are still registered foxhounds.

Gosh, sadly I have seen more than one dog killed by a horse. The last was a fox terrier. One kick. Dead.

Recently after my last horse accident (involving dogs and a cat), I was talking with my vet about dog/horse accidents. My vet also has dogs and horses so he is hardly inexperienced. He had recently repaired a Jack's head and another mixed breed dog died from internal hemorrhage after being kicked. Sorry, these are not isolated problems.

Incidentally, the reason I came off my horse in the last accident was that my horse was trying to kick the 3 dogs who were chasing the cat across the arena. They were all mixed breed dogs, and I think that the owner was clueless about the dangers of bringing her ill-behaved dogs to the arena.

I also own land and have horses and dogs. The dogs I know I can trust loose are allowed to run, always supervised, alongside the pastures with horses on the other side of the fence. The dogs know they do not go in there. They occasionally go say hello if there's a horse asking for attention, but in general, they ignore them.
So am I irresponsible?
I think not.
I never allow loose dogs around horses being riden or lead.
Safety first :)

So....whichever way you prefer to go about it...bottom line is....know who you're selling your pups to.

In this area, dogs are not allowed to go out on the hunt. Only hounds, fox hounds. We go on walk and talk trail rides, no dogs allowed.
I have had horses and dogs for 30 years, I'm the one who has gotten kicked, bitten, stepped on, the horse owners take better care of their dogs then themselves, at least the ones I know.
You're missing the point of this thread. In this economy sometimes you have to take different measures to place a puppy/dog. I'm not advocating everyone should take their dogs to a horse show, I'm just suggesting other avenues. It's nice when people have their litter sold before they are born, I've been there, well things have changed. I don't breed very often, this is my girls second litter and I really wanted a pup from her. She will not be bred again.

No, Linda, I think you are missing the point of what I am saying. I am telling breeders unfamiliar with the world of horses and horse owners what issues might be involved in selling puppies to horse owners so that breeders can ask good questions of potential puppy owners.

If you are advising breeders to step outside the box in puppy sales, I think it only fair to tell breeders what else might be outside the box. You have evidently had better experiences than I have had, but my experiences are also true.

I did not address the issue of selling puppies at a horse show. But I will.

From the seller point of view, I wouldn't do it because I think there are better ways to get to know your potential puppy owners. Horse shows are chaotic and tense. Hardly a place where people are able to answer my questions and fill out my application.

From the buyer point of view, when I am at a horse show, I am showing--not shopping for a dog. I pay high entry fees and usually a trainer to help me. My thoughts are on my horse and my performance. I don't want my horse near dogs at the show because it might affect the performance of my horse. I'd be annoyed to find someone selling puppies at the show site, which I pick out carefully to get the best performance from my horse.

Kate - you are not the expert on EVERYTHING! Give it a rest, please! Don't you have someone else to PhD on?

If you have something meaningful to add, please do so. And put your name on it.

“When you resort to attacking the messenger and not the message, you have lost the debate.”

I do agree that you have to know something about the world of horses.
When you go to a show, you don't walk around with a bill board around your neck advertising pups for sale. Behind the rings there are horse stalls where the horses and people set up. It's kinda like tail gating. People set up a awning, chairs, rugs, plants to give it a sense of home. I was walking in that area with my pup, not with the intention of selling him on the spot. A woman saw me with my guy and asked, is he for sale? I went over to her and quietly said, at this point I'm not sure, I just wanted to get him out. If I find him a good home, yes. She was not looking for a puppy, it just happened, I didn't have my paper work with me. As I said, I spent the day with this family, they passed the interview with flying colors.
She had students in the show, there was nothing tense about her or her riders. They were focused, not tense. Again, this is a rated show, no nonsense.
Why do you think that you have to educate breeders about selling puppies to horse people? Do you think breeders don't have the brains to ask questions. They see the size of a horse, and ask where does a pup fit in this equation. Will pup be safe?
Fox Hounds are not Fox Terriers, Corgis or any other dog. They are Hounds. English Foxhounds, American Foxhounds, Welsh Foxhounds, Black and Tan Virginia Foxhounds. They are bitches and dogs.
Why I need to justify myself is beyond me.
I guess I wanted breeders not to worry about placing pups.
Now I'll get the flames for this, take them to Pet Smart, Dog parks, Family fairs, Country fairs, oh yes obedience classes. If I didn't put that in I'd be ban from the world of Labradors.

No worries...if you are afraid that folks are going to start carting their pups to horse shows instead of Walmart to sell them, I think you are mistaken.

Otherwise, I really don't care how this person managed to sell her last puppy. Glad it worked out for her. I am sure you could see fault in the friend I had that took her pup out to the outdoors mall to generate attention in selling them.

Don't point fingers, I am sure each one of us has a little dirty laundry we prefer to keep in the closet.

My child's newly married adult friends have photo's up of their new labradoodle. It shows pick up in a parking lot with a very large tractor trailer making delivery.

Is this the new way doodle or PM's breeders are delivering or selling their pups?

By the way the pup had the funniest looking face I ever saw on any dog in my years.

This is a joke, right? What does this have anything to do with this thread?

Realistically, the post about the tractor trailer may have a lot to do with puppy sales if the doodle was a supposed but not real rescue. Rescue is very different these days than it was when I started in the mid 80s, after our beloved Labrador Layla died. There are more mega shelters who want to control all puppy production, even at breeders it sometimes seems on some TV shows.

Then there is the Last Chance Highway, sort of a reality show where unwanted dogs are trucked on major corridors from areas with little spay/neuter to populous areas where spaying is the way and puppies are scarce, whether from a breeder or from a pound. I think that you can get a look on Animal Planet website. I watched one episode where they trucked in a pit bull or Am Staff to New York City--a place where many dogs die each week, many of them pit bulls, so that made absolutely no sense. Who is standing behind the dogs trucked in from far away? Another episode featured two young Labs who were said to be escape artists and at a pound or given up. The foster home for the Labs put them in an outdoor dirt-floored run and so of course they dug out--a big DUH!! for me, but good TV footage it seemed. I am sure the foster home meant well.

Other "rescues" specialize in puppies, lots of puppies. Some buy puppies at auction or from struggling puppy farmers and place them on rescue sites--just brokering in my book, with fewer checks and balances than pet stores, so scary to me. The public "rescues" or buys the puppies on the web, and pay shipping fees in some cases. Some folks make a living off this. Others don't.

Some are more traditional pounds that have done good local and also Katrina/disaster rescues but that also transport in a lot of puppies from out of state and have done so for years, while also providing education in the rehoming area. I support animal rescue, just not brokering, and I'm casting a careful eye on some of the transporters. I do NOT mean to denigrate the hard working breed or local rescues in the least. If you have the room in your house and heart, adopt from a pound or from a rescue. I just mean that brokering and transport in the name of pseudo rescue may have something to do with this thread, when done more for publicity, money and market share than otherwise.

Charlotte, you're CRAZY.

Linda,
you started this post to get a response.
You seem miffed because not everyone approves or agrees with your sale tactics.
Kate has every right to explain her side just as much as you do.

At the end of this thread you seem more interested in convincing the rest of us you did the right thing.....did you?

The thing I'd be hesitant about in such a setting is the impulse buyer. Great that they liked the pup and got to spend some time with it between their classes at the show, but I would prefer they took a couple days to think about it, get ready for bringing puppy home, puppy proof home and yard, line up it's wellness appt, et. and then meet me back at my home a few days later to receive the puppy.

I know you mentioned you screened the home well. I'm sure you found out how long before that day had they been talking about adding a dog to the family, if they had specifically been looking at Labradors and why they didn't have any luck in their search connecting with a breeder or finding one to their liking so far (could be any number of legitimate reasons, just something I would be wondering, that's all I'm saying).

Yes.

Yes I did do the right thing. I wasn't looking for a response. I started the thread to say there is more than one way to place a puppy/dog. I wasn't miffed. I just think in this economy their are breeders who might like to know there are other ways to place a puppy. Did I say Kate hasn' the right to express her opinions?

I agree about impulse buying. I discussed this with puppy buyer. She new what she wanted for her family. I always wonder how the pups are doing. In my contract it states puppy buyers have to keep in touch with me, via email, snail mail, phone send pics and updates on any health issues. So far so good.

Kate has a world of knowledge about alot of things. And real true life experience. We just have a joke in our family about buying animals out of the back of someones car. We bought a cat once and the lady wanted to meet us. After seeing her car we had to take the poor kitty. So NO, I wouldn't sell a pup out like that. I would need alot more info and talks going back and forth, but we are all different.

Just a simple question to everyone....have you EVER met an unhappy farm dog?????

Maybe farm dogs live on the edge a bit, maybe they're a little dirtier than we'd all like and maybe they are sleeping in the barn instead on on their fancy LL Bean beds but they live good and busy lives!!

Whether selling a puppy out of the back of your truck or spending months back and forth emailing, on the phone, and visiting, I think we all know good dog people who appreciate our puppies and will give them loving, active homes!!

I have a happy farm dog.

She showed up at my farm when she was about a year old. She had had a litter of puppies in my back pasture; all died. Only when all the puppies died did she come to closer to the house so that I could feed her. She was covered in ticks (I stopped counting at 30) and other parasites; she was heartworm positive.

She now sleeps in the stairwell of my basement because she is so afraid of gunshots, thunderstorms, and strangers that she is not satisfied simply being "in" the house. She can be loose on the property. She is too desperately afraid to leave the vicinity of my house to be a problem. She has a dog door so that she can get inside when she wants, which is most of the time.

I call her Hobo.

There are no shortage of dogs who have been dumped in rural areas, but there are very few rural dogs I would call happy farm dogs. If you want to live in the Magic Kingdom, you'll have to buy a ticket from Disney.

But as long as I am exploding myths, let's get back to horse owners. Most of them don't own their own farm; they board their horses. In my area they pay $500+ a month for board alone, not counting shoeing (about $125+ every six weeks), yearly vaccinations, and vet care. If the barn where you board has a trainer and you want help with your horse, you will pay another $500+ a month. Shows are a whole nuther level of expense. And where I live, things are relatively less expensive than some areas of central VA, which is very expensive horse country.

When you are paying that kind of money, you do not want to have a farm dog loose spooking or chasing your expensive horse. The trainer probably doesn't own the farm, and the barn owner doesn't want the liability.

These are the people showing up at horse shows and making "homes" in the stall where they pay a pretty penny to board their horses during shows. Maybe some of them are or would make wonderful dog owners; but they are smart and wealthy and can find a good breeder if they truly want to add another expense to their lives.

....not talking about dogs dumped in rural areas to people who tie them to trees, think puddles suffice as water and consider a tree leaning against the barn adequate shelter.

But there are thousands of people who work horses, cattle, and their land. They value life and their property. And they give good homes to dogs of all breeds. These are the happy, well cared for farm dogs I'm talking about who are up with the sun and snoring soundly by nightfall.

And if we find people who treat dogs as true companions on their farms milling around at horse shows and events, then that's where we find them!!

I don't know where you live or your frame of reference for your statements about happy farm dogs.

I live in a COUNTY with a total population of less than 40,000. My neighbors raise cows/calves and grow soybeans and corn. They harvest fields for hay (which I also do), and they timber their land for money.

Like me, my neighbors have dogs; they are all fenced and live indoors. None of them have any working job other than companion. These dogs don't even hunt with their owners. If you want to call them happy farm dogs, I guess you could, but they are only "farm dogs" in the most basic sense that their owners live on farms. The time of any significant number of dogs working the land with farmers has long passed.

As I said earlier, most horse shows only allow dogs on lead. Some of them don't allow dogs at all.

North Carolina and I've sold dogs who are "working" on cattle farms, watching over calves, chasing the odd chicken, going on hacks with their kids and having a grand old time.

I guess that's my opinion of "happy"!! Might not be everyone's but that's ok, isn't it?

Why would you assume that I have never seen a working dog? I grew up on a Midwest farm, and my cousin still farms her portion with meat goats, sheep, and chickens. One of my cousins was named Grassland Farmer of the Year. They have both guards and herders. They will be the first to tell you that their dogs are not pets and also do not have the longevity of pets. So I think that this whole discussion about working dogs is irrelevant to having Labs as "happy farm dogs."

I'm not saying that there aren't people who get Labs and let them roam loose. In fact, my cousins tell me that the main predators on their flocks have been outside roaming dogs and coyotes.

Thankfully most good breeders will run, not walk, away from people who plan to let their dogs roam.

But there's a difference between "roaming" and dogs under control, off leash, isn't there?

And everyone's entitled to their own opinion of "happy dog", don't you agree?

How in the world did this thread get so off kilter?

Horsey homes are no different in any other in that they too should be qualified, just as should professional athlete homes, people with young kids homes, the busy professional home, the family with no fence home, etc. and the list goes on. To berate somone on how they found a home for their dog is ridiculous, whether or not you approve.

And for Kate, in my personal view, a well trained show horse, just like a well trained obedience dog should be able to perform regardless of the distraction.

Good grief! Linda I support what you are saying. This is NOT a perfect world. Please go out and celebrate life!

I haven't been to this forum in a while I see some things never change. Linda ...do what you must and believe in what you do!
And NEVER look for opinions here!