Just had my girl's x-rays sent to OFA - don't have results yet. The vet who did them is into curly coats. She made a comment strange to me which I am interested in your opinions about.

She said, "OFA is getting much pickier about elbows and it's a good sign. Elbows have improved so much over the past years that they can actually tell an excellent level from a good level. They now often rate what a vet would consider "good" as a Grade I where in the past the elbows were so poor that Grade I was rated 'normal'."

She went on to say that she thought OFA should start rating elbows like hips with 'Excellent', 'Good', and 'Fair', She said minimal wear is even making them give out lots of Grade I's. She was concerned that over the last year many dog's she's x-rayed came out with Grade I which would have easily rated normal in the past. She's afraid of really good dogs being dropped from breeding programs over these new elbow evaluations.

So, what's your experience, opinions? Just curious.

Never heard that before. But that is creepy info.

But , if the Vet is getting that many Grade 1's , then maybe it would have been a good idea to have that info , before you chose that vet to do your films ???? Positioning is everything. I see a re-do in your future, and please choose a different vet for the re-do films !

The vet I had do my kids hips and elbows has a similar philosophy. To her elbow clearances are as, if not 'more' important than hips (my words, not hers), and there is not enough emphasis placed on elbow clearances. I tend to agree. The is a lot of weight and impact on the elbow joints, so personally, I think they deserve the same grading (stricter) as hips.

I had 2 dogs, before they started doing elbows, that developed elbow problems in their old age. One had flunked hips, but she never had any problems in her rear. Elbow problems are very painful for the dogs and I am glad OFA is better able to evaluate them. We won't improve elbows by passing elbows that are poor.

I have a boy that got Grade I at prelims and then Grade II on finals. My vet, who is excellent and never puts a wrong foot, said he thought they were normal as both elbows looked exactly the same and didn't have any signs of arthritis. The dog has never had a problem and he actually moves flawlessly.
Elbows are harder to interpret than hips.

I look at - they are either good elbows or there is something not normal and will show up in get.

I bred a lovely girl (that had one Grade 1 elbow )that I bred on three occasions, and had a total of about 12-14 pups. 3 pups that I know of had elbows not pass. I would breed once and wait to see how the pups do - keeping in mind you will be looking for elbow problems at about 145 days.

Actually, I've used this vet for several years. I saw the x-rays myself and they are positioned perfectly and very clear. This vet belongs to a hunt club and an obedience club where all the members use her for OFA. Her reputation is great but I am concerned that OFA is rating more Grade I's than in the past. The vet said even slight wear on the joint which is not genetic will now get a Grade I!

Wondering if any of you recently had a Grade I come back that you did not expect?

In Iceland we send our dogs hip and elbow x-rays either to Norway or OFA... if they are sent to Norway the elbows are grated as the hips, either A or B being normal, or C,D and E with E being the worst. I think everywhere in Europe they grade elbows similar as hips.

Why at 145 days? That is well under 6mo. of age. Full growth and growth plate closure is not complete. What am I missing? Prelims are over 365 days and before 2 years, finals are twice that, 730 days or more. Where did you get the impression that elbow problems are looked for at 145 days? I've never heard it before and I'm not a newbie.

The fact that you already have 3 pups that you know of that did not pass elbows should tell you not to breed her again. That's unless you x-rayed at 145 days which is entirely too early. If it was, maybe you should re x-ray at 365 days or much older. Did she have 1, 2 or 3 litters with *about* 12 to 14 pups?

Your post, days and no.'s have me completely confused.

I was told a few weeks ago at a recent OFA hip and elbow radiograph appt by an excellent *placer* that she doesn't know what OFA wants anymore when it comes to elbow positioning. Most of her films pass for both but not all. She has several highly-respected, longer-time breeders dogs as part of her radiograph practice. In those lines there are several if not more generations of passing hips and elbows behind the dogs coming to her. Not all are but she spoke about how impressed she is with several.

She doesn't usually use any type of sedation or anesthesia unless absolutely needed.

My dog passed both hips and elbows, so did several other breeders dogs done that particular day according to the staff. I was told this when I called to thank the vet. If she does radiographs 2 or 3 times a week for OFA evaluations and finds elbows more difficult to place for the OFA rating vets, then what is really going on with OFA elbow rating I wondered. The next dog I bring in, I will ask her to explain this further. My dog could have failed with slightly different positioning if what she's saying is accurate. It also could be which vets are on the panel at that time.

Has anyone else heard these type of comment from vets, radiologists or orthopedists in the US? TIA.

The total number of lifetime puppies she had was about 12-14. The first litter (of the puppies that I kept) was okay and on second and third keepers - I began to see slight limping at about 145 days - when UAP usually starts to become evident. Most problem elbows don't happen at 2 yrs - they happen by 5 months of age. Watching movement at that time can be telling.

If Huh??? thinks that spaying this bitch just because this bitch had produced 3 puppies with ED will be any better than any other dog with "clear" elbows than they must not realize that even with "clear" elbows the breed average for ED is still around 25%. So this bitch is actually getting about what would be predicted. To think that you will never produce something with some form of Dyplasia is just pie in the sky thinking, what you should be concentrating on is looking at the averages of what is produced and go from there. A dog with "clear" elbows that produces a high number of ED is a much worse choice than a dog with a Grade I that produces hardly any.
I have a dog with one Grade I elbow that has about a hundred puppies on the ground over the last 8 years and has had only 1 come back with ED and that was a Grade I. I suppose by your thinking I should have placed him in a pet home. I feel we are getting more Grade I's than ever before because not only are we testing for it but these are dogs that get plenty of wear and tear and on a front loaded breed this would be expected. It's the dogs that consistently throw the more affected grades of ED that I'm worried about. I bought a bitch years ago that had a grade III in one elbow and she lived very well with it till the last 2 years of her life.She was out of a line with super clear history of ortho's, but it happens.

Quite honestly when you think of how long it's become routine to check elbows if it was so cut and dry than I would have expected a vast improvement in the numbers and there hasn't been any real progress so to speak in eliminating it in it's lower grade.Eliminating Grade I's doesn't seem to be bringing the breed any closer to no ED. 20 years ago we didn't even check elbows, heck my foundation bitch didn't have her elbows checked and not only did she live a very long healthy life with with no elbow/front problems she only produced 2 puppies with "one" Grade I elbow each. (GASP!!!) In the old days there were very few dogs that had that many issues, the dogs that had a problem with their front end either weren't bred or if they produced alot that had front end problems they were pulled. To this end I don't think that there will be any elimination of Grade I's and that it is a "normal" for this breed.Grade II and III no, not so normal.

Recently had a long conversation with Keller. Positioning of elbows does not come into play for grading elbows as much as hips do. If anything, poor elbow positioning can sometimes hid dysplasia in a prelim (because they look for sclerosis and change in the bone). As far as 145 days or so, most elbow problems are manifest early, and growth plates do not have the same effect on change elbows because we are not dealing with joint articulation the same way we do with hips. The most common elbow problem in Labradors is FCP, with OCD a close second. these are defects on the radius, that affect the joint - but the actual relationship between the radius and humerus is not the true cause of elbow dysplasia.

Where in the world did you get these statistics? Give the reference for a real medical study showing those figures or confess that you just made it up off the top of your head.

I admit that I don't know the x-ray status on every single puppy from my breeding. I do have more results than many breeders as I encourage pet owners to have the x-rays done and I pay for OFA evaluations. Since OFA started certifying elbows, I have never bred from a bitch that didn't have a number. In that time I have had about 30 litters. I have produced only two litters in which any pup x-rayed failed to pass.

One litter was sired by a dog that cleared on prelims, but at age 24 months, his elbows did not pass. My litter was 10 weeks at the time. ALL of those were x-rayed later at my request. Four of the nine had ED. I conclude from that experience that ED is very hereditary and that breeding based on prelims is very risky!

The only other dog of my breeding that failed to pass elbows as an adult was sired by a dog that did not have an elbow number. The owner didn't "believe" in elbow dysplasia. Unfortunately, her belief system didn't offer any protection to my youngster. That experience taught me not to use stud dogs that don't have the clearances I would require on my own bitches.

Experience is a great teacher, but you have to be open to learning from it. My experience taught me that the best way to avoid elbow dysplasia is to breed only dogs that are clear. Those who say that Grade 1 is "as good as clear" just don't have a grip on reality. THEY will continue to get ED in their breedings because they don't choose to avoid it. It is pretty simple - don't put the problem into your personal gene pool and you will be FAR less likely to pull it out. Selective breeding is just that - being selective.

Taken from the FAQ page on elbows at OFA.
http://www.offa.org/ed_faqs.html

Example 1:

Examination of the OFA database reveals the following mating probability results for 13,151 breeding pairs of dogs with known elbow status:

Normal Elbows x Normal Elbows = 12.2% offspring affected with ED

Normal Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 26.1% - 31.3% offspring affected with ED

Dysplastic Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 41.5% offspring affected with ED

In this very large breeding study (primarily Labrador Retrievers, Golden Retrievers, Rottweilers, and German Shepherd Dogs), the rate of ED more than doubled when one parent was affected, and more than tripled when both parents were affected. In any breed where the overall percentage of affected dogs is already lower than the percentage that can be expected when a dog affected with ED is bred to a normal dog (26.1% - 31.3%), one would find few circumstances in which progress can be made by breeding a dog affected with ED.

I say, ask some well known breeders who have played this game. "Oh, one bad elbow won't hurt anything" Ask them if they don't wish they had done differently. If it did not come back to bite them in the butt. Those just breeding for money will just make excuses and do what they want anyway. Deaf ear.

...and Labradors (in this country) are below that 12.2% mark with only about 11% ED across ALL OFA submittals regardless of parent status.