Ok. I have only been showing a couple of years. I have an honest question for all of you. (Please be nice and only respond with kind answers, I don't want to start a mean thread). I co-own a bitch with another breeder. That breeder will be judging sweeps this fall at a specialty. She let me know that I can't show my other pups to her (not out of the bitch we co-own or any other of her dogs) because it would be a conflict of interest. I can understand if it was a regular class where points are involved if I was showing the bitch we co-owned or pups from her or pups from a stud dog of hers but why does it matter if I am showing to her when the pups I am showing to her are not from her kennel? Also if it is a conflict of interest how might that be different if other breeders are showing to her that are her friends? I would imagine that the longer you are showing the more breeder judges you will show to that you personally know. This is very discouraging to me Thanks in advance for your positive responses

For one thing it looks REALLY BAD to show to a judge that you co-own a dog with, regardless of which dog is being shown. Just don't do it! I don't know why it's discouraging - there are plenty of other shows to go to. Your friend is doing you a favor by telling you not to show to her - you obviously didn't think it was a big deal.

I agree, who cares that you miss that sweeps class, just enter them in the regular class, chances are you'll never run across her judging a sweeps class again, at least while your pups are in that age range. I'd say, no big deal...move on.

The issue here is that YOU have a BUSINESS relationship with her. You co-own dog(s). It doesn't matter how many dogs you own otherwise, you are in "business" with her and it is a conflict of interest for her to judge any of your dogs. It is also a conflict for you to show someone else's dog under her. I know you didn't ask, but I just wanted you to understand the point. YOU and SHE are in business together and you can't be in her ring.

She's right. Trust her, she trusted you with a puppy and I'm not bring critical of you. She's teaching you right from wrong.

I know of situations where judging has taken place that shouldn't have. Good friends, dog put up by the judge and don't think it doesn't bother other breeders who may not say anything publicly. One in particular was a provisional judge, shocked they got away with it as they traveled and roomed together prior. *Exhibitor* then gave the judge a free breeding from judge's favorite stud dog owned by Exhibitor. This was after judge put up the dog finishing it CHAMPIONSHIP. Exhib also announced the showing publicly. Stewpid. Other Exhibs don't forget.

Flip side...what do you all think if this person were to have someone else show her dogs to this judge instead? Unless they are FRIENDS, I doubt this judge will recognize the other dogs with a different handler on the end of the leash.

I do agree that it's a shame when you have folks who you know KNOW the judge. We have some folks in our area who when they go to the local specialty, it seems like they ALWAYS win. Do they have the BEST dog on that particular day or does the judge just assume that if Lady X has a dog, it must be good. many shows state that officers can't enter their dogs, but it's not just the current officers but past officers that are very well known.

Let's remember this, "the appearance of impropriety" is what matters. If you can anwser the question that you are completely clear on that , then you follow your concience.
I've had people show me puppies out of my stud dog, which made me uncomfortable. I more than likely judged them with a stiff upper lip, but was fair and they got what they deserved on the day. I would rather nobody do that to me.
I've had people send puppies in the ring with a stranger, that I helped choose the sire for ,although my name was no where on the paperwork and I did not own any part of any dog in that pedigree. I did not know who the puppy was until after judging. To each their own, a judge with integrity will look only at the dog , and place it where it belongs.
Don't complain when you don't get a ribbon. My integrity means more to me than that ribbon means to you.

Its just one show, skip it, do the right thing.

Dont do it. Its simple, it is ONE sweepstakes show, there are several others.

If I was a co-owner with you, and I saw this on here, I would see it as you dont trust me and what I suggest to you.

:(

To me the answer is sooooooo simple...YOUR FRIEND asked you not to make HER unconfortable by showing under her as SHE FEELS IT'S IMPROPER. She is your friend so give her the respect you would want in a FRIENDSHIP

You should respect her enough to honor her request to you. If you do show to her she could get in trouble and you could get suspended. Rules are there for a reason. Since it is a sweeps judge you can enter in the regular classes and the other days of the circuit. If it were a regular judge you would not be able to show at all at the event, 3 days before, and 3 days after. This is why it is complicated co-owning with judges. You should read the rules and be aware of the policies as well. They are posted on the AKC website. Oldtimer is right you cannot show any dogs to her as you have a business relationship. It doesn't seem too much to ask for a obviously nice dog you got from her.

Thanks for the responses. I have been thinking more about this all day bringing up more questions. So I am in business with her now. Wouldn't you also be in business if you used any of this breeders dogs she owns or co-owns as well as if you purchased a dog from this breeder. Then what about friends? If you are friends with a judge shouldn't that also make the judge uncomfortable for her friends to show to her and not to mention also a conflict of interest? I am not doubting she is wrong and I don't plan on showing under her but I thought it was the dog being judged not the person holding the leash. The puppies I was planning on taking are not out of the bitch we co-own nor are they even out of any lines from her kennel. I just wonder where people draw the line? Thanks

Actually AKC draws the line on co-ownerships. It is stated in the judges handbook that someone who you co-own dogs with may not exhibit any dogs they own to you as a judge. If you buy/sell a dog to/from a judge you may not show under them for 12 months. Stud dogs are not addressed and in the event of heavily used studs the owner of said dogs usually has no idea who is and isn't a get in their ring. Friends who travel together and room together are typically discouraged from showing to each other. Otherwise you may show to judges who are your friends. These inconviences are what come with co-ownerships. Rules that apply to regular class judges apply to sweeps judges with the exception of sweeps judges can exhibit dogs in a multiple day circuit after their judging assignment. Hope that helps.

Most of the information you need to know is in this booklet. http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/REJ999.pdf
Please read it as it explains all the situations you brought up. In a word if a judge is uncomfortable with a person entering under them that they have a relationship with, friends lets say, they can and should excuse that person. We as breeders being in this for a length of time get to know a lot of other breeders and become friends. Unless you travel with the person they can enter under you technically. If it makes the judge uncomfortable then they should ask the person not to enter under them. A person a judge sold a dog to can enter that dog under the judge after one year. There is no rule about entering get out of a judge's stud dog. In many cases they would not even know that the dog is such or may not know the person handling. That is not a problem and is done all the time. The rules relate to dogs the judge bred or co-owns. You as a co-owner need to know these rules and adhere to them to avoid embarrasment to yourself and the judge you got the dog from. This is how it is done and has been done. You as a newer exhibitor need to learn the rules and if you don't like them I guess you should end the co-ownership.

There is a time limit for "casual" business relationships. You buy a dog from someone. You don't show to that person for at least 6 months (as I recall). I can't find the chapter/verse in the guidelines, but there is a time limit for casual business - buying, selling, use of a stud, etc.

There will always be friends and other breeders who show to a judge, but to avoid the appearance of impropriety, you don't let business associates in your ring. The most significant thing that could happen to you is that the judge excuses you from the ring because you should not be showing to her. How embarrassing would that be????

Thank you Liz... I couldn't remember if it was 6 months or 12 months on dogs you buy or sell.

Jessica ... looking at your co-ownerships, damn it you know best to listen, especially how new you are compared to your sweeps judge.

It's one show... Why would you put the sweeps judge and yourself in that position? Ethically, it's not worth it... Even if you had a puppy that won, there is the likelihood that many (most?) would talk about the win only being a result of your relationship with the judge... It looks bad for all involved, including the dogs.

Now it sounds like you are actually asking about someone else, not your dogs and mentor ? There are some breeders so big, alot are connected at a distance.

I actually called AKC recently and asked as I couldn't find it in the rules and regulations.

WHEN IN DOUBT, DON'T!

"If you have to ask, don't do it." That's a quote from a breeder/judge/casual friend of mine about such proprieties. Make it easy on your friend/judge/co-owner and watch ring side.

I would add, if you have to ask, ask. I wanted to show my dog at a fun match for experience, but my breed was being judged by a friend- a breeder in another breed. So I asked if my showing under her would make her uncomfortable. She adamantly said it wouldn't bother her (she probably was friends with many of the exhibitors in this local match), so I showed. If she had been at all hesitant, I wouldn't have done it.

Don't bother, it'll only come back to bite you in the hindquarter later.

But did you have a business relationship with her?

No- we occasionally do things together (non-dog) for recreation, and we have photographed each other's dogs. I don't think that's a business arrangement. But the point I was trying to make is that I let HER make the decision as to whether she found judging my dogs uncomfortable. If I were unsure as to whether my relationship with a judge would make them uncomfortable in judging my dogs, I would ask them how they felt about it and would not show if they were uncomfortable with it.

Maybe I don't see something.

It looks like the OP is gone. Why are you still posting and talking about this? I agree with the initial answers but how many times are the same or different people going to post when no one is arguing the point with you?

If it is a written law or guidline in AKC, don't do it. If it isn't then you can do it. What's with this crap, it will bite you in the butt and all that? Obviously you haven't been in dogs long. The dog show goes on and if your a friend of a judge or a well known handler and eat dinner with the judge and win the next day, the dog show goes on and people get over it! If you haven't noticed, it's political and people get over it and move on to the next dog show.
It's like saying, you co-own dogs with the sweeps judge and you co-own dogs with another breeder, so the other breeder shouldn't show the judge the dog that you co-own with them. Geeez, pretty soon, nobody can show to anyone, because, people will talk that they think they are friends with the judge. I can tell that some of these comments are made from people who haven't been out there long. If it's sweeps, it's not a regular class and AKC doesn't recongize it as such. So, that's what I have to say@!!!