I've been told that once a bitch hits 5ng, she *normally* will rise 4-5 ng per day. For those who have done implants where the vet is targeting a higher number (14-17 or whatever), is this what you've seen?

I have a friend w/ a golden (almost 6 yo) who is very discouraged at the moment. She's tried 2x before to breed the girl, and the first time (at ~4yo) the stud owner told her to bring her girl over once she hit ~3.5ng. I believe they bred (AI, male not surprisingly, wasn't too interested) that night and 1.5 days later, and called it good. Result was 3 male puppies.

The next time she bred (last season), she tested thru to 5.2ng and did a chilled AI. The bitch ate some rocks at ~3 wks, became sick (I was hoping for morning sickness), and eventually threw them up, but end result was no puppies.

Now she's trying again, and decided to go w/a surgical implant of chilled semen so the vet can check her girl out inside. She was 3.2 ng on day 7. On day 10, she hit 8.3ng. On day 11, had only gone to 9.7ng. And yesterday, day 12, was 9.6ng. I just wonder if her ovulation point is higher than the normal dog or if anyone has any idea why she'd be stalling now? She is a stressy dog when it comes to travel, so I wonder if she could possibly be stressing enough over the 10 min drive to the vet. The repro vet wants her at ~14ng and this seems like her last chance. She does have another progesterone draw scheduled for today but has anyone seen this happen before? I haven't but then I have only done a few tests that were up in the 9-17 range. Thoughts?

There are really too many possibilities to say for sure what could be going on, but here are some thoughts.

From your description of the first breeding I wonder if she might have something else going on. If the stud's semen was good that should have produced a nice litter. Do you know if they looked at the semen under a scope? My last breeding to my own girl I bred at 2.5 and again at 5. Result was 11 puppies. For fresh AI, I like to breed around LH surge and ovulation because of the old wives tale about breeding early for girls. (so far it's worked by the way)

Even if she stalled for a day or two, fresh semen should stay alive long enough to produce puppies.

This is one reason why I always test until 5 or higher though. Really a number under 5 does little to help pinpoint ovulation. It can get you close, but some girls will drop or stall for a day or two around 3 or 4.

In the second breeding I don't know what could have happened. Do you know if the semen was evaluated there too?

Glad the repro is waiting for a higher number and checking her uterus. Could be more serious things going on. One bitch my boy bred to had a very odd shaped and positioned cervix. The vet could not do a transcervical and had to do a surgical. He said the bitch would have likely never had a litter by vaginal breeding or AI.

I can't imagine a bitch with so much anxiety that a car ride would cause her not to concieve. If I had a bitch that anxious it would concern me. I understand she's not a Lab, and Goldens can be more sensative, but that's too sensative for me.

I have done several surgigal implantations. Once she hits 5, we implant 3 days later. Litters have produced an average of 8 pups (14 highest, 6 lowest).

MWK

Did you ever do follow up progesterone once they hit the 5ng point? Or always go by +3 days???

It's interesting as I've done a fair number of chilled breedings (AI) based on 5ng +2 and 4days and only had a problem once. The bitch was pulled into season ~2 mos earlier than normal by her half sis, so after only ~6.5 mos (vs her normal 8.5-9 at the time). She hit 3.0 or so and stalled out (at least) a day, then SHOT up to nearly 18ng 3 days later. Result was 1 puppy that died before birth. Other than that, I've been blessed w/ text book progesterone curves and litter of 7+, so I'm really curious what it means w/ this rise going so slow after 5ng. The vet told her today that she had another girl in earlier that did the same thing, and they went ahead w/ the implant and struck out. She has a call into the Portland repro specialist to see if they have any ideas.

I had a slow to rise girl but bred anyway.

Friday 2.1
Saturday 3.2
Sunday- boys going crazy
Monday 6.2
Tuesday 7.2 (first chilled AI)
Wednesday 9.2
Thursday 12.6
Friday 14.2 (second chilled AI)

Litter of 9 was born 63 days from the 3.2ng/mL. I suspect she ovulated the day the boys went crazy (Sunday) and was bred on days 2 and 5 post ovulation. Even though she didn't spike like my other girls have, she definitely ovulated and carried a full litter to term.

BTW, my repro vet also likes to breed when the bitch is 18-20ng/mL which is why I kept testing all week. She said some bitches just don't spike and this is the first time in 8 years I did any breedings before 14ng/mL. I usually do progesterones up until the first breeding and it's been anywhere between 14 and 25. I was shocked it was so low and was afraid she'd stalled.

I'd be tempted to go ahead with the surgical 3 days post ovulation and possibly follow up two days later with a TCI or AI to cover her out some. I know some people say the higher the number the more eggs they drop, but in this case it didn't seem so. These were all Idexx numbers.

I just went back and read the post and it sounds like she's already past 3 days after ovulation. If they haven't put it in her yet, I'd encourage them to do it ASAP!

Good luck!

Wow-- interesting data! Unfortunately, it appears the bitch has gone out of season. Her male who had been going nuts starting at about 8ng (Monday) is no longer interested and vulva is hardened. She didn't bother w/ the progesterone today, so may never know what happened. :(

It's my understanding the progesterone numbers after 5.0 are meaningless because "postovulatory elevation in serum progesterone varies greatly between bitches."

Ovulation is usually 2 days after LH surge. LH surge occurs when progesterone is 2 ng/ml. Progesterone levels for ovulation can be in the range 4.0-10 ng/ml. From her numbers I would guess that she ovulated on day 8.

I hope they didn't wait too long. I would ask for a vaginal swab to look for cornified cells before doing the surgical. Easy enough to do. If the swab is noncornified she's already in diestrus and it's probably to late.

Good luck to your friend and I hope her dog gets pregnant and has a good sized litter. Let us know what happens.

I was having troubles posting and I didn't see you last response. Sorry on both counts.

WindyCanyon, I have never done another progesterone after hitting 4 or 5. Just went with the recommended number of days afterwards for insemination.

MWK

I wonder why you all talk about the magic number 5.0ng??
I have heard and read that majority of bitches ovulate between 3.0 and 5.0ng/ml and few of them ovulate between 6.0 and 8.0ng/ml.
http://www.cloneusa.com/insemination.html#Timing

If a bitch hits 4.0ng/ml do you wait 3 days to breed or do you test until the bitch hits 5.0ng/ml?

I usually breed two days after my boys start howling! That was a joke kind of. Actually they know better than the test if they are experienced. I test until 5ng or a little higher then breed two days later, and again the following day. Works pretty well.

I always test until at least 5.0 or over. It takes 1 miss to realize we shouldn't stop under 5.0. I have also tested on the 2nd and usually last day of breeding for future reference altho not all girls or cycles are the same. It has helped me with future timing once I see the outcome of that breeding including how many pups and the sexes of them.

I don't necessarily recommend it but I've done it just to be sure there's no stall and for future litters. It's Jmho and desire for another test.

I always test until at least 5.0 or over. It takes 1 miss to realize we shouldn't stop under 5.0. I have also tested on the 2nd and usually last day of breeding for future reference altho not all girls or cycles are the same. It has helped me with future timing once I see the outcome of that breeding including how many pups and the sexes of them.

I don't necessarily recommend it but I've done it just to be sure there's no stall and for future litters. It's Jmho and desire for another test to be safe.

But what about the fact that majority of bitches ovulates between 3 and 5? I am just trying to figure out why you always wait until the magic number 5 to make your moves?

The answer is in your reply. If you wait until 5 then it's very likely that ovulation has taken place.

Magic no. is 5 to 10 not 3 to 5. I've never heard of 3 to 5 in the many years I'm breeding . Who said 3 to 5?

Had a surgical done by Hutch. (An 8 hour drive, one-way, for me.)

When the progesterone level hit 5.2, he instructed me to be there 3 days later. After the surgical was done, he ran another progesterone level & it came back 20.0.
My girl had 10 puppies.

http://www.cloneusa.com/insemination.html#Timing
Quote: CLONE, the first company to use progesterone testing in bitches, with over 25 years research and experience, show that the majority of bitches ovulate between 3 - 5 ng/ml and a few ovulate between 6 - 8 ng/ml. However, there is only a 24 hour period of difference between these two groups of 3 -5 and 6 -8 ng/ml. (the earliest and the latest ovulating bitches).

Quote from Hutch's seminar:
The other five problems have to do with the bitch herself, and progesterone testing the DAY of ovulation is the day her progesterone goes above 5 nanograms.
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1224

Here's the thing.....

Some bitches can ovulate between 3 and 5, but those bitches are the ones that continue past 5 that same day. Some bitches hit 3 and stay under 5 for 3 days or more. Those bitches have NOT ovulated.

If a bitch ovulates early (3-5), she will rise above 5 in that same 24 hours. Why?? Because the progesterone will usually double within 24 hours of ovulation. This is why the day she goes over 5 is so very important. In my experience as a stud owner, I have done first breedings to girls ranging from 9 - 30.

No bitch who ovulates at 3 will still be at three or four 24 hours later.

Thank you for explaining this to me!!!

I have a boy with no experience, but is dead-on, and my female actually flags way early, so I test, test, test. From 5, I wait 3 days. I've read after 5, it climbs about 2 per day, not sure if that really accurate. Bred on a Wednesday, TCI prog. was 12.7 at time of breeding then followed up with an AI the following Friday. 8 pups/full term.

When is the # too high and it's over?

So testing until 5.0 is still best going by the Hutch seminar.

That was written 9 years ago in 2002. I wonder if Hutch has any new ideas since 9 years ago.

Furball, that's a tricky answer, because once they have ovulated the progesterone numbers rise up to a certain level and stay at that level until they would have delivered, pregnant or not (in a normal cycle). This is why it is key to progesterone test to pinpoint ovulation. If your first progesterone test is already in the 20's, you have no idea when she ovulated, and there is no way to back track it.

My boys have successfully bred to girls in the 20s and 30s.

The number on the day of breeding really doesn't matter at all. Some skyrocket and 2 days after ovulation are huge, others stay relatively low.

This is why 5 is so important.

Thank you-- that makes sense! I wonder now if my friend's bitch didn't ovulate a day earlier than I thought... I still think something is going on w/ this bitch though. At least one of her littermates pyo'd last fall (on my watch!) and I believe yet another did as well. There just seems to be some hormonal issues there- something I can't shake.
Anne