I woke up this morning to find a picture on FB of a beautiful dog, retrieving a LIVE bird (who was zip-tied)! and still alive. I realize I am very new to hunt test training, only just putting the WC on my first dog last month, but my husband and son are avid sportsman and I have never heard of them hunting any animal zip tied. The point of training is to simulate the real test. Our dogs are to practice the real retrieves so that when we get to the test, it all is very familiar to them. I have yet to be at a Hunt Test where the live flyer station was throwing a zip tied bird. If your gunner is not accurate, your bird sometimes comes back to you alive, and it then needs to be killed. The dog must learn to retrieve a bird that is flailing, quacking, running, or even trying to fly away. Never does he have to retrieve a live bird that is zip tied. Our local club has "live flyer" training where gunners also come to practice. Dogs are worked in the real simulation of the test. Ducks being killed is the unpopular part of this sport. I am not here to debate that. I am confused why dogs are being trained in this un realistic manner. Do not attack me, I am not the one training or photographing this. If anyone can better explain why birds would be zip tied, I would respectfully like to hear the reasoning, since this is not the way we TEST our dogs.

I also want to mention, a dog that failed the JH test last week because it mauled the bird (still alive) on its way back to the line. It was not a pretty sight. The dog was corrected and put away. Makes it pretty easy for animal rights activists to imply that we are being cruel to the birds if we aren't even training realistically. Maybe there needs to be more thought into how people train. I will not be training Rory to bring back zip tied birds anytime soon. I am sure some of you will agree.
Heidi

Many training techniques are inhumane. I see people post pictures of puppies "mauling" pigeons that are jacketed, or tied like you mention. Makes my heart hurt. I wish AKC would approve testing with dokkens instead of live birds. The dog could then demonstrate their retrieving ability and instinct without the inhumane treatment of the birds. I was at a hunt test a few years ago. It was so hot, that there was a discussion about canceling the event. There were several crates of live ducks, in the broiling hot sun. These birds were stressed like I have never seen. I asked the man in charge of the ducks if he could move them out of the sun, and maybe wet them down a bit. He said "What difference does it make? They are going to die anyway". Made me sick. I moved them myself into the shade with him protesting at me. He was lucky I didn't throw him up into the air and shoot him! I am in no way anti-hunting. But I think we have a responsibility to treat all animals humanely. Those poor training birds have a terrible time of it. Very sad.

I too, wish that Dokkens were allowed to be used in place of live birds. I cannot justify killing an animal just so a dog can pick it up and bring it back.

How about we discuss the inhumane methods of killing the ducks for WC testing where they are not shot in the air?

I am betting some people don't know that they are killed using cruel methods like breaking their necks.

Recently at a WC, this was the chosen method and several ducks lay still barely alive, quacking, struggling, suffering in burlap sacks for HOURS until they were eventually used for a run and killed (again).

We are supposed to be animal lovers (dog people)? Aren't we?

I am absolutely NOT anti-hunting and I eat meat everyday.


However, I am anti-cruelty and I consider it wasteful to kill birds for sport alone.

Just my 2 cents

I do respect both of your opinions. This thread is intended to question why we are training the dogs unrealistically. We do not zip ties in the field. It would be terribly cruel to these birds if they were mauled, heat stress, etc.

Photographs don't always tell the whole story, and without being there none of us could possibly know the training scenario. Heidi, since the photograph obviously belongs to a friend of yours, have you expressed your concern with him or her or asked about the training session?

Shackling birds is a training technique that has been used for many reasons. Duck hissing can be intimidating to young or green dogs and as you have seen in both real life and testing scenarios, dogs are often asked and expected to bring back injured ducks that may not be happy about the situation! Training a dog to pick up a live bird, but ensuring the bird cannot hurt the dog or get away is crucial. Usually these shackled or tethered birds are alive and well at the end of our short training sessions, or they are humanely killed for later training sessions. Until plastic ducks can be shot from the sky, training with live or fresh-killed birds is a necessary evil in this sport.

Actually, plastic ducks CAN be "shot" from the sky.
http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?i=413158&pdesc=Dokken_Greenwing_Teal_Launcher_Dummy&aID=503K7A&merchID=4006

Ditto on this. All exercises in hunt tests can be simulated without killing ducks. I believe the UKC allows dokkens for their hunt tests.

I compete in UKC hunt tests and have only ever used real birds. Not sure if the rule book allows dokkens, but I've never seen it.

I think real birds should be used, but IMO they should be dead for tests. At the tests I've gone to, they are all killed in a gas chamber before the event. It's done very quickly.

The reason I think real ducks should be used? I had one dog who was a great retriever with dokkens and bumpers, the first time he saw a duck, he wouldn't pick it up to save his life. I've never had that problem with any of my other dogs, but it can happen.

mmmm....roast duck on the table after a productive hunt.... yummy...plastic.

The reason why Hunt Tests use "real" birds and not plastic is because some dogs refuse to pick up feathers. You can't have a working retriever if he will not retrieve game. Taping beaks and shackling live birds is not necessarily inhumane. If a young dog has a bad experience with an aggressive bird, you probably will have to use these methods to get the young dog retrieving reliably again. That is not to say that the dog should terrorize, torment or mangle the bird....that it equally wrong.

There is also no excuse for callous and/or inhumane treatment of the birds at a hunt test. Yes, we understand that they will be shot, but their treatment prior to their sacrifice should still be humane.

If Hunt Tests bother you, perhaps you should petition the AKC to change the rules (when H E double toothpicks freezes over, by the way) or get involved in some other activity.

It's not like people actually hunt to eat like they used to in the olden days. Killing any animals for sport is cruel and unhumane. If you just want to prove your retrievers will bring back something why couldn't plastic dummys or even scented stuffed animals be used? The same people that kill ducks to train probably go in helicopters and trucks and shoot innocent animals. If I had any FB friends that hunted for fun or had heads and skins in the house I would delete them immediately. I mean you just don't know who some people really are. We should all be animal lovers here. I can't stand to see animals harmed and believe all breeders should rescue too. There are far too many dogs dying in shelters to breed dogs unless they are all spoken for before the breeding. JMO
Ann

I want to go back to the ORIGINAL question. Why are we training dogs with zip tied birds if that is not a realistic setting. The picture in question was on a news feed and I do not call them "friends" so I have not asked any questions about the training session. People hunt waterfowl with dogs. Labradors are duck dogs. They must retrieve ducks, alive or dead, in REAL life, real situations. People never hunt/ retrieve zip tied birds, so again...WHY ARE WE TRAINING DOGS TO RETRIEVE LIVE ZIP TIED BIRDS. This is just not realistic.

This is not a debate about hunting or killing animals.

I will try to clarify what I posted earlier. There are times when it is necessary to train with shackled birds. Biting birds, cripples, and diving birds are all potential issues that a retriever will encounter. If a young dog is repeatedly struck by a diving, biting duck, or a crippled runner, it will potentially ruin a nice working retriever. It happened to one of my puppies who was sent on a water retrieve. I had to correct the bad experience by HUMANELY using a shackled duck with its beak taped to prevent bad consequences. If I didn't do this, either the puppy would refuse to retrieve a future bird, especially a cripple, or would become more aggressive toward the birds in the future and ruin the retrieved bird, rendering it unfit for table. It is of paramount importance to conserve game. Teaching a dog to properly retrieve cripples, especially fighting ones, is much more humane than letting the crippled duck get away to die a slow death.
By the way, after a week of having my pup gently and properly carry the shackled duck every day, the duck was returned to the pen in perfect condition and not stressed in the least.

Is it just the zip tie you have a problem with, or tying in general. I have read that they should only be tied with soft material, so a zip tie does not seem quite right.

How else would you simulate a live crippled duck for training purposes? If for practice you always do live shot fliers are you just going to hope you are a bad shot and only cripple a bird so the dog gets experience picking up a living bird?

Just as with training for any sport you might do things in practice that you would never do in the real event, even if the real event is hunting. If all you ever practiced for obedience was the ring routine then you probably would not end up with a very good performance. You can't start at the end.

Also, not everybody has an unlimited supply of birds that they can shoot one for every retrieve. If a live bird is taken care of and the dog is not allowed to maul it then you can practice retrieves without killing a bird every time. A live, but tied, bird would also provide a different experience from reusing frozen ones all the time.

Why is it ziptied? So it can't fly away. I'll ziptie pigeon's wings when introducing them to puppies. I don't allow any plucking or hard mouthing, the puppy gets the idea and then the ziptie is removed and pigeon is placed back in it's house until the next training session. I don't like to pull/cut flight feathers as I'm not familiar enough with the birds to know I got the right ones, it makes them bleed (which is going to make puppies want to lick/mouth) and they grow back. Zipties are easy and quickly removable.

What exactly bothers you about it?

Hi there,

Since it is my dog and I posted the photo I would be happy to give you an explaination. First, please know that the bird was not harmed, this same bitch is now a senior hunter and had one senior leg at the time the photo was taken. I understand that everyone trains differently, please know that this was an EXPERIENCED dog with an EXPERIENCED handler. I won't presume to know what your group is doing or why but Carmen needed this scenario that day. Gun dogs need to retrieve it all and sometimes that is a bird that is alive but NOT flailing around. You would be amazed at what our Labradors need to experience and know what to do, I do understand how this photo could have been confusing to you. This bitch on her last senior leg, first water retrieve- got a duck that dove, she was a bit confused- went after it- it dove again, she stayed with it and it dove a third time. She was ready when it came up and got it and brought it in. I really don't need to explain any more here- I do understand that the photo confused you and I'll likely change this to Carmen with a dead duck- her usual retrieves! Thanks for sharing your comments and best of luck with your training.

Ok, now that I see the picture, the feet and beak were tied...which was answered up thread. Great pic!!

Well, a hunt test should be a hunting situation. If a duck is shackled it can't peck or maybe flap wings on a young dog, but if it's a senior test...I don't see shackling it for any reason unless it's a blind retrieve just so the duck won't fly or walk off. I'm not sure how many of you have really hunted, but ducks are killed and some come to you still alive. We used to wring their necks if they were still alive. I KNOW really gross, but what else could you do? You wounded a duck and had to dispose of it. Maybe exactly the reason we don't hunt anymore. Have nothing against it...we just don't really like duck meat, and if we aren't going to eat it....no reason to kill it. When we had field trials at our ranch for pointing breeds, we very often had an AKC rep show up....never had any say anthing about the birds. We always had planted birds in the bird field. I had to plant birds by dizzying them and sticking their head under their wing so they would stay in place, but they didn't always do that. We did that for at least 10 yrs. never had a dead bird. Had a lot that didn't stay put, but that happens.

Hi there,

The photo talked about was a TRAINING day, not a test. I used the test as an example of why we sometimes choose to shackle a duck in training because you never know what situation the dog is going to run into. Sorry for all the confusion. Have a great weekend!

Liz, I tried to email you privately but your email link didn't work. Have you pulled up your website (as posted here) lately? It's got Viagra links all over it! Anne

Hum...I'll let my son know about it, it just worked when I tried. Try this one: http://www.lizharward.com/labs/ Thanks for the heads up! LH

Reading the posts and replies on this thread reminds me why I dislike so many people's "attitudes" and enjoy my dogs so much.

It's just the main page-- Viagra, Cialis, Tramadol... you're just a regular pharmacy there! ;)

Stay off the entire site until it's fixed.

Liz... your site loads up just fine for me

The website works fine for me too, it must be your computer that's infected.

How can it only be that page that comes up corrupted? Hmmmmmm.

Works for me too!

That was my point. After seeing a few of you had no problem, I took the chance and went to the main page. There's nothing wrong and I'm not on a Mac.

Poster who's seeing porn or whatever it is, that's your computer software that needs lotsa fixing.

Not porn. Just pharmaceutical links to Viagra, Cialis, etc, interspersed on the blog page. Very odd. I've not seen it w/ any other site.