Something does not seem quite right. Give it a couple of months and have another x-ray taken. And do not use the same vet for the x-rays. Her PennHIP score is good and the parents have good scores as well. I would not be so quick to give up on this one.
How old is this puppy? Was Penn Hip done, then months later, OFA shot taken? Did you get a second plate taken for the OFA position so that it could be sent in? If so, did you send it or did only the local vets rate her dysplastic? I have had a local vet pronounce a dog dysplastic and it was OFA good. You have the PennHIP, which would have said she was Lax if the femur was dysplaced. I agree that something doesn't sound right. My guess would be that the PennHIp vet is not the one who did the OFA views, but I really don't know. If PennHIP has validity, good tight hips should not be dysplastic.
Also, keep her lean and exercise her.
Two vets have done hip x-rays at different times and both stated neither hip would pass. PennHip was done with second set. Only one parent has PennHip. OFA has not seen either set, but I am going to send them in. She is 2 yrs.
I am not sharing info on breeder as I've seen how unpleasant it can get here. My question is, would you breed this bitch?
I had a girl passed pre-lims with flying colors. Failed at 25 months, both hips, one elbow. Because I'm thick headed had them redone. Failed again, this time both hips, and both elbows. Done by different Vets. This is why I won't breed on pre-lims. Both parents passed OFA. Both Sire and Dam are well known. Breeder gave me a replacement puppy. It wasn't in a contract, they just felt it was the ethical, Christian thing to do.
Why would you even consider breeding this bitch?
Seems to me that if this bitch's mother had hips that did not pass, and littermates that also did not pass, and now two vets have confirmed that the bitch herself will not pass, it would be very risky to breed her. Unlike a genetic test, no one can say definitively if she will produce hip dysplasia but with it so close in her pedigree, it is a cause for concern. What would you do if you do breed her to a dog with as sound a pedigree as you can find and still ended up with a litter of dysplastic dogs that you've placed in pet homes? How would you explain to a puppy buyer whose learned to look for things like passing hip clearances. Even though breeders breed for themselves first, the majority of pups end up as someone's pet. How would you deal with it if your keeper ended up dysplastic or there was no pick puppy at all? Those are the types of questions I would be asking myself. Obviously no one can make the decision for you, and no one should fault you for any decision you make, but the fact that you have to ask what others might do should give you pause.
Have to agree with "Why"....Why would you breed this bitch? You just stated that you know she comes from a pedigree that has questionable orthopedics. Do you want to continue to deal with this as you breed? I would spay her and love her as a pet or place her with a family that will. That is the breaks in this hobby unfortunately. Learn from it and move on.
You ask, of course, DON'T BREED HER. We all have had some not pass. You knew up front the parents wern't completely OFA'd. You took your chance, but move on.
Thank you. You have confirmed the decision I had already made. Her breeder and co-owner wants me to breed her in order to fulfill the agreement, but I want to spay her. She is much loved whether she is neutered or not.
Good for you. It's tough, but, you won't be sorry. I placed my girl in a loving home. Things seem to work out the way they should, when done for the right reasons.
If she is nice then breed her and see what happens. Your odds are not going to be any better or worse. If she is not lame then go for it.
Later
Riiigggghhhhttt......you really think your odds are better than mine? I am more concerned about what they produce than what they are.
Do is all a favor, give your kennel name so we can avoid your pedigrees!!!
And this kids, is an unethical breeder!
I would be very concerned about the Dam and litter mates all having hip problems with this bitch. If the litter mates were passing, I would say yes breed her but use a dog with very sound orthopedics that comes from a family of sound dogs. You may have a tough time improving on her hip conformation. It can be done as there are some sires who can produce very sound joints. The problem lies in the next generation down. I would spay her and make her a nice pet. This is the problem with buying a puppy. You raise them and never know how your clearances are going to turn out. It would be nice if you could find a bitch to purchase that was old enough to have prelims done and get an idea of what her joints will end up like. If you buy another puppy from a breeder look at the hip and elbow scores of not only the parents, but the grandparents and siblings. See what the parents of the puppy have produced before if they are old enough to have had other get. You can get dysplastic puppies from OFA excellent parents so it really is all a crap shoot, but try to reduce the odds of having a problem. Sorry about your girl. This can certainly be a heart breaking hobby sometimes.
First, let me say that I've been there regarding much-loved , promising youngsters that don't pass clearances. It's devastating. I know there are those who choose to breed their Labs in spite of failed clearances, and if you listen long enough to their reasons, it all seems okay. But-- unless a breeder is going to keep all the resulting litter from such a breeding at least until all of them have passed their clearances (and provide a forever home for those that don't), there is no excuse for such a breeding IMO. It's just perpetuating ongoing problems. It's selfish, no matter who you are.
I think you're to be applauded for doing the right thing. Shame on the breeder.
I'm wondering what the PennHip enthusiasts would do with this situation. I know of one that has stayed off this thread, and since she is extremely opinionated on the subject, it strikes me as odd !
Do you ignore OFA, and beleive PennHip ? It's my understanding this bitch cleared PennHIp, and not OFA?
Well done Dr. Cooper. Yes, it is mostly sarcasm. I can't resist sometimes when I know I can make a comment that will inspire some virtuous responses. I do enjoy reading them sometimes. However; I do not want to continue and potentially influence people who are new to the hobby.
It would be a rare exception that I would breed a dog who did not have OFA clearances despite the flaws associated with this kind of standard. There is no such thing as the perfect dog so I won't say "never."
They do not have a pass/fail system but a dog in the 70th percentile would be in the range considered suitable for breeding according to them. PennHip also looks for DJD as well and notes that in their report, so wonder if there were any findings with that for this bitch.
Thank you for helping me make my point. A bitch in the 70% is breedable according to PennHip, this is bitch falls there. So for those that depend on PennHip, would they breed this bitch even though OFA fails her?
And as a side note, how the devil does one sell puppies without OFA hip score on the dam ? Just asking?
It is interesting because my dog that is in the 50th percentile for Penn Hip is OFA Excellent. Three littermates are OFA Good (the rest are untested). Three are easily-finished champions and all have multiple working titles and have never had any issues. I was concerned by the Penn Hip Score as it is mediocre and will keep it in mind when breeding, but not sure I would use it on its own.
I do know dogs that have been bred only on Penn Hip (80th percentile or better) and I am not aware that they have produced any issues.
I would start by sending in the films (or taking new ones) to OFA, just to see. I have a male here, who I was told by two separate vets looking at two sets of x-rays (one an ortho who was examining him for something unrelated) that he had "mild hip dysplasia". OFA gave him a rating of GOOD, he competed in Obedience advanced levels (so jumping, etc.) until the age of 11, and will be 13 in a few months and to this day shows NO signs even of any arthritis in his hips.
That said, with the poor familial history, even if she passes OFA I would be hesitant about breeding her. My point is just that OFA doesn't always agree with "regular" vet opinions.
I think.I didn't make that clear. Both hips were over .65 DI, not percentile.
Don't bother waiting. The difference between 70th percentile and a DI of .65 is the difference between night and day.
Don't waste your time & money. Find a wonderful pet home for her and look for a better prospect for your breeding program. Time to move on.
I don't think that I would run on her, unless she is the very best, the very last of your line, or a very good reason to overule the orth. stuff (like she is already a champion) I firmly believe on building a pedigree on good stuff, not marginal or below standard
Surely your contract with her breeder addresses getting her certified prior to breeding, doesn't it? If it doesn't, she might try to force a breeding through the courts based on her poorly drawn contract. You might want to check with a lawyer to make sure you are protected in your decision to spay her. You are doing the right thing but I'd hate to see you penalized for doing it.
TO the OP
IT sounds like YOU DON"T want to breed this bitch, regardless of what her clearances are. You don't mention anything about the rest of her clearances or her faults.
IF you DO want to breed , Penn Hip 70% ( I am reading it as the Dam has the .65) is breedable. I would WAIT for the OFA determination , and then take into consideration the rest of the package, clearances,type, temperament, then do you say yea or nay.
If it is the breeding contract , and you don't want to breed, take it as a valuable lesson on what you buy into......
I guess everything you write is taken literally here. All I was trying to get across is that if you have a once in a lifetime dog, maybe it would be worth thinking about - breeding with poor orth. in hips - one litter and run on a few and see if there is something to move forward with. I would not use bad elbows, though.
Ok , thanks for the clarification on the DI
Please do some research and read up on what PennHip is.....and trying not being mean, but I think you need to educate yourself across the board on clearances and breeding, BEFORE even thinking about breeding.
Your bitch would be in no danger because of her PennHip score.......
I am not sure what you mean. The bitch's DI would probably put her in the 20th percentile, which is not good. Having a litter might not put the bitch in danger. But since she has poor PennHIP scores and will not pass OFA, OP would risk having her produce puppies with poor hips.
The OP said
"Besides, with DI scores that high, aren't I putting my girl in risk during pregnancy? How I understand DI, is that less than 35% of her hip is in the hip socket. Then I am going to put her in a situation where her hips are going to loosen further, just so I can see what happens? "
That is what I was referring to, I agree with the offspring being at risk
If you read my response, I said that it would be something to think about. In the OP circumstance, I would not breed the bitch, that was not what I was saying. I, myself, have never bred anything less than fair and almost 100% of my pairings have been OFA good or better. I guess there is just no room for discussion here without someone getting their hackles up.
It is my understanding that the bitch has DI of over .65 and someone said that would probably place her in the 20%. I also understand that none of her x-rays were sent to OFA?
If thats the case send in the x-rays. I had a bitch placed 30% so high DI scores, but she OFA'd good. Now there is a dileama of what to do.
It looks as though the general consensus on this particular thread is that the OP's bitch should not be bred.
But it concerns me that several posts, such as the most recent, advise to try different methods of getting around what is already known which is that the bitch has questionable hips and hip lines??
I find that irresponsible at best, deceitful for sure!! In my opinion, that puts those that do such things right down there in the barrel with back yard breeders!!
Either we are going to use the tools that are available to us right now to breed strong, healthy dogs or we aren't. The same people who advertise their OFA certifications shouldn't then twist and turn those certifications when things don't go their way.
I understand that things happen, even between good hip lines but if we know what we know about a particular dog then why go looking for trouble?? And don't forget, we breeders aren't the ones watching beloved pets suffer from poor hips. It's the families we entrusted our puppies to who go through the heartache and financial setback. Not to mention what we may have put a dog through!!
This is not directed at the OP and it is just my opinion.
She did not pass OFA's DON'T BREED HER. She can't be that perfect that you would put pups who could have a problem the rest of their life in familys hands. Let the breeder breed something else. There are a ton of pups out there. Try again.
I did not and do not sanction breeding her. I just wanted to point out that the 2 do not agree. In the bitch that i mentioned She OFA'd good and everyone here would have bred her based on her OFA results. Then the Penn Hip results came in........
Update.
Results from OFA is bilateral moderate dysplasia. Her PennHip scores put her in the 10 percentile.
Thanks for getting back with the results. Given the scores - there is really nothing left to discuss. Sorry for the bad situation.
First, let me start by saying I have a Champion with mild HD and NO, I have not/will not breed, that is MY decision.
However, something tells me we're only getting one side of the story here and I can help but read every post and wonder what the breeder is really thinking, saying and doing.