What about a puppy buyer who suddenly becomes uncomfortable with the breeder? What if they were led to believe the parents had clearances and then it was discovered one or both were bred on prelims, or failed clearances? What if upon visiting the breeder, the puppy buyer decides that they don't like the conditions and would not want to pay $$$ for a puppy out of that establishment? Isn't the puppy buyer entitled to back out WITH their deposit? I am wondering what breeders would do in the reverse situation.

I think a person needs to do their homework before putting the deposit down. Once the deposit is put down, the breeder probably is turning down people that inquire about their pups being the pups are spoken for. If the puppy buyer feels they really dont want the pup after the deposit, dont expect to get the deposit back as you are backing out of a contract.

How do you know that the policy of limited registration was published, or that there was no contract and no deposit? HMMM!!!

The only arrogance here is yours. I would think any breeder would be proud to know that someone considers their lines a welcome addition to an existing breeding program, as insignificant as you think it is.
If you back out of an agreement have the courtesy to inform the other party. I would have loved to introduce these lines into my breeding program and I respect the position taken by the breeder. I just think it would have been nice to know the reason(s). Try to remember why I started this...ethics.
BTW I'm happy to hear all about your deposit policy. However, if you're so concerned with the wellbeing of your puppies, they should be your primary concern, not someone's deposit or your inconvenience for having to keep a puppy a little longer. I was under the impression that all of you are so well respected that you'd have a waiting list a mile long.

Sorry, I made some assumptions. When you said "Although she sells her dogs on a limited AKC registration" I assumed that it was her published policy. You didn't mention a contract or deposit, so I assumed that there was only a verbal agreement. My bad. I hope you get your deposit back and that the contract is easily cancelled.

My pups are never an inconvenience - the deposit policy is for them to ensure they get the best possible homes at the best possible time.

Since you brought this discussion to the forum, in the interest of ethical fairness, I would like to hear the breeder's side of the story and what led her to cancel her contract with you. You never even hint at the reason but I suspect you do have a clue.

It went something like this: I had a specific litter I wanted to buy from. The breeding was to take place with the puppies being due in March. When we spoke the second time, I was told that the breeding was a failure, and that the bitch had missed before, so she would not be used again. I'm not sure whether any of this is true. I'm not 100% sure why, but I think my reasons are well founded.
Then we spoke about another litter that the breeder deemed would not be a good fit for me, considering my background in obedience.
The breeder did mention another person who would be using the stud overseas, and that I may be interested in contacting her.
It was at that point that I said to the breeder that it didn't sound as if she really wanted me to have a dog...to which she said yes, because she doesn't sell to breeders. Don't forget, we had agreed to my having a dog and that I had emailed her a few times before this call and never got a response.
I did contact the person overseas, and she told me that at the last minute, after all the arrangements had been made from her end, the breeder refused to ship the semen. Needless to say, she too was very disappointed.
Thus the title, Ethics.

Oh what a tangled web we weave.

**I** am the *Breeder* in question. I was (and probably should still) not going to respond to this post, but now that the facts are becoming a bit convoluted, I think that it’s time I chime in.

Paul contacted me several weeks ago about a puppy. My first response was *no* as I explained to him, I do not like placing puppies with full registration. He informed me that he was an obedience judge and really wanted a nice puppy to work with in obedience. I still did not feel 100% comfortable, but I did have a litter coming up that I thought might fit the bill, as both parents have allot of drive. I reluctantly, told him, ok, let’s just wait and see what she has. No deposit was offered or accepted.

Well, that bitch missed. When Paul called me back a week or so ago, to see what she had, I told him she missed. I do have another litter, but as I explained to him, I did not feel that it would produce what he was looking for in a top obedience prospect. Paul then told me that he had also been looking at another litter, and that he was reluctant to take one of those because one of the parents did not pass an elbow. So, what I see here, is a fellow that was STILL shopping around while he was waiting for one of my puppies.

During this conversation, Paul kept insisting that I should place one of the puppies from the second litter with him. And I mean insisting. This guy was not taking no for an answer. So I finally just told him loud and clear NO. I was sorry to have to be rude, but on the same hand, I do not like anyone trying to push me into a corner like that.

Now, after coming here and seeing him posting this dirty laundry on this forum, I know why my gut said *no way*. So there you have it... I went with my gut and glad that I did.

How I decide to place my puppies, or who I decide to send semen to, is my business. Please due NOT question my ethics.

Peeps - wash your laundry BEFORE hanging it out... there's nothing "cute" about those brown smears on your undies!!

I'm glad to hear you finally tell your side of the story, although it's a little off. There's one thing you've misunderstood. In no way did I ever insist on a puppy from the other litter we spoke about. I wanted a puppy from that male. That was obvious. That's why I ended up overseas.
As for shopping around...what difference does that make? You asked me to stay in touch and I did. That should have been an indication to you, that I was still very interested. You just didn't have the courtesy to let me know what was going on at your end. Did it ever occur to you that maybe I'm looking at purchasing more than one puppy.
Get your gut checked out. You're 100% wrong on this one.

I dont see anything unethical here. It seems Paul is just a little bitter when things dont go exactly his way. I would have the same gut feeling about Paul and not sell him a puppy either.

Paul, when you "reserve" your puppy with Breeder A, its time to stop looking. Even if you were looking for multiple pups, some breeders might not want their pup to go to a home with multiple new puppies.

Paul, Im sure the lines you want are out there. Cant you breed to a stud dog with lines you want and produce your own puppies? You have been doing this for 30 years. Is there something else your not telling us?

Outside Observer

I have been fully aware of the dealings between The Breeder and Paul from the beginning. The Breeder and I discussed every day like sitting around a kitchen table enjoying our morning coffee and planning the day's events.

As the encounters unfolded, I was told about the breeding overseas. I expressed to The Breeder of the problems I had with the requestor and shared the approximate 50+ emails received during my lack of judgement in engaging in this relationship. This prompted The Breeder to not send semen given the content in my emails that I shared and how I was treated. In fact, when The Breeder refused, the same negative treatment was encountered.

Paul questions The Breeder in regards to the 1st litter (the one he requested a puppy from) that did not come to fruition. I know for a fact that the bitch did not get pregnant as I saw her in person at The Breeder's house a week ago. I commended my friend, The Breeder, for not sending something that did not fit the performance criteria she believed Paul was looking for. It is sad that someone cannot accept a situation when they want something so badly. It is what it is.

As breeders, we are not obligated to place any of our puppies. I feel we can change our mind if we have that gut feeling. I have. I do. And I always will. I will gladly send deposit money back, if taken, to ensure the well being and safety of a puppy that will live in a household, be it pet or in another breeder's home, for 13 to 15 years.

Signed,
The Breeder's Friend
Who knows the whole story from The Breeder's persepctive as it unfolded daily.

Please take this PRIVATE ! I don't want to know, and this takes up valuable space. And Paul , I wouldn't sell you a puppy either ! When someone airs dirty laundry in public, red flags are on the field, try to muster up some class Paul ! Grow up and stop whining , puppies sold with open registration are rarely done, and after this ridiculous thing you have started, it will be done less !

Please read the post this AM. I understand that the bitch didn't get pregnant, but I was suspicious. It's not too difficult to see why I would be.
I did not insist on a puppy from litter # 2. I don't know how else to say that, so you'll understand. I respect your breeder friend for steering me away from that litter, thinking that I would be disappointed.
My problem is in the method, like I've said many times. I emailed your friend twice and got no response. When I called, I was surprised by the change in attitude. A door that I would have liked to have remain opened, was abruptly shut. There was no mention of maybe something down the road...nothing. Case closed! I got off the phone feeling like some sort of pariah.
As for overseas, think about it. Two people got treated quite poorly by your friend with no explanation...just ignorance.
Like I said earlier, your friends gut couldn't be more wrong.

I am Breeder 30 (not to be confused with breeder30.)

If the puppy was being purchased for obedience, then limited registration would be fine, you only need full registration to show in conformation, or for breeding. Full can be granted later, or not, after certain conditions are met.

"So reading through all of this...the breeder did not have a puppy to sell you...what are you upset about? You just stated that you did not want a puppy from the second litter and she felt it was not a good match for what you wanted so she told you why she was saying "no". I would think you would rather work with someone that is honest and tells you that the dogs are not going to have the work ethic you want from the other litter than sell you a puppy that is likely not going to work. I guess I am not seeing the full issue here. No deposit was placed, no promises made...it was agreed to wait and see what she got. "

Here's my take. "Okay" summarized this beautifully. No tantrums in public were needed by a would-be buyer, especially for the litter that didn't happen. I do understand wanting the perfect pedigree, with looks and brains and working ability, too, BUT THE LITTER WAS NOT BORN! This is not exactly a rare breed. Plenty of good Labs work well in obedience, getting multiple OTChs, even NOCs. What is all the fuss, except that someone didn't get his way, when the breeder didn't either: the litter was not even born?!?!?! That fuss, that temper, would have scared me off him, too, even with limited registration. Is Paul the real name of the OP? I don't know who the parties are.

Amen x 2