Labrador Retriever Forum
Does this mean the cost for stud fees reflect these puppy prices? $2000 seems a bit high for a stud service.
What is the going rate on a proven GCH. Stud fee??
How much for puppies out of puppies on prelims?
Wow, $1500-$2000 for a puppy! Golly, and here people gave me grief last year over my 2 litters, who were placed for $800!
Can't just say stud fee equals pup price. A $1,200 stud fee is just the start. $200 or $300. for Prog testing. Boxes. Extender and shiping can be $80.00 to $160.00 a pop. So to breed a litter is more like almost $2,000. So yes, the pups are worth every penny of it. But it depends on your area and if you have a Puppy mill person selling them for alot less. We all stick together in our area.
Not necessarily for less. There is a "puppy mill" in Maryland representing themselves as reputable, that sells puppies for top dollar. Living off the backs of their dogs.
Stud fees are $1000-$1500 on average.
Why would anyone expect a discount on a puppy from a "prelim'd" xray breeding? Are you willing to pay double for a puppy from a "champion" sire or dam with "official" clearances?
As a puppy buyer, I would want a puppy out of adults that have proven themselves worthy of being bred, have final clearances, etc. Otherwise there really is no difference between that litter and one between two family pets- it is the same roll of the dice. If a breeder wants to take a risk on a 10 month old puppy as a producer, that is their choice, but I would not pay premium prices for a puppy out of that litter as the buyer's risk is much higher, and the eventual puppy buyer is expected to care for that dog for the rest of its life, including all of the resulting expenses. When said puppy dog is bred to an equally unproven bitch, the risk just increases, A 10 month old puppy is not old enough to have proven themselves worthy of anything except possibly being kept as a prospect. No one has invested anything in that dog to a meaningful extent, so to charge premium prices for its offspring seems ridiculous. Every breed club out there provides guidelines regarding what to look for in a breeder and in the sire/dam of a potential puppy. This goes against everything recommended and good common sense.
We ARE paying double for puppies out of champion sires, etc. Bitch owners pay higher stud fees for proven dogs as well. This is what theoretically makes the difference between backyard bred pup prices and well-bred pup prices. The breeder actually invest their time, $ and energy into their dogs and ensuring they are breeding only the best. When we see more and more young puppy males being bred to bitches that do nothing but sit in a whelping box, I have to wonder what the difference is between that and a BYB litter, other than the price.
As a puppy buyer, I would want a puppy out of adults that have proven themselves worthy of being bred, have final clearances, etc. Otherwise there really is no difference between that litter and one between two family pets- it is the same roll of the dice. If a breeder wants to take a risk on a 10 month old puppy as a producer, that is their choice, but I would not pay premium prices for a puppy out of that litter as the buyer's risk is much higher, and the eventual puppy buyer is expected to care for that dog for the rest of its life, including all of the resulting expenses. When said puppy dog is bred to an equally unproven bitch, the risk just increases, A 10 month old puppy is not old enough to have proven themselves worthy of anything except possibly being kept as a prospect. No one has invested anything in that dog to a meaningful extent, so to charge premium prices for its offspring seems ridiculous. Every breed club out there provides guidelines regarding what to look for in a breeder and in the sire/dam of a potential puppy. This goes against everything recommended and good common sense.
We ARE paying double for puppies out of champion sires, etc. Bitch owners pay higher stud fees for proven dogs as well. This is what theoretically makes the difference between backyard bred pup prices and well-bred pup prices. The breeder actually invest their time, $ and energy into their dogs and ensuring they are breeding only the best. When we see more and more young puppy males being bred to bitches that do nothing but sit in a whelping box, I have to wonder what the difference is between that and a BYB litter, other than the price.
Sorry, huge difference between a BYB and someone who breeds on prelims, - in England I understand hips are rated at 18 months, not 2 years as in US. Also, a stud on prelims comes from generations upon generations of health tested/cleared parentage. Dog may also be champion pointed and even have some performance titles. Huge difference between back yard bred pup and a quality stud being used on prelims. Prelims are an evaluation of hips and elbows, so vet that did prelims has evaluated, as has OFA. I've bred for over 10 years, have never used a stud on prelims, but that doesn't mean I won't do so someday - the preliminary evaluation has merit and the lines behind the stud also has tons of merit.
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As a puppy buyer, I would want a puppy out of adults that have proven themselves worthy of being bred, have final clearances, etc. Otherwise there really is no difference between that litter and one between two family pets- it is the same roll of the dice. If a breeder wants to take a risk on a 10 month old puppy as a producer, that is their choice, but I would not pay premium prices for a puppy out of that litter as the buyer's risk is much higher, and the eventual puppy buyer is expected to care for that dog for the rest of its life, including all of the resulting expenses. When said puppy dog is bred to an equally unproven bitch, the risk just increases, A 10 month old puppy is not old enough to have proven themselves worthy of anything except possibly being kept as a prospect. No one has invested anything in that dog to a meaningful extent, so to charge premium prices for its offspring seems ridiculous. Every breed club out there provides guidelines regarding what to look for in a breeder and in the sire/dam of a potential puppy. This goes against everything recommended and good common sense.
We ARE paying double for puppies out of champion sires, etc. Bitch owners pay higher stud fees for proven dogs as well. This is what theoretically makes the difference between backyard bred pup prices and well-bred pup prices. The breeder actually invest their time, $ and energy into their dogs and ensuring they are breeding only the best. When we see more and more young puppy males being bred to bitches that do nothing but sit in a whelping box, I have to wonder what the difference is between that and a BYB litter, other than the price."
This is utter nonsense. I have a young boy not yet 2 yrs. He has OFA EX prelims/elbows pass/Echo/Optigen/EIC clear/CERF , I hardly think that using a young dog with those clearances is the same as a BYB ! Expecially when both of his parents are MBISS CH.with all their clearances. Some people speak without knowing anything about the subject!
As a puppy buyer, I would want a puppy out of adults that have proven themselves worthy of being bred, have final clearances, etc. Otherwise there really is no difference between that litter and one between two family pets- it is the same roll of the dice. If a breeder wants to take a risk on a 10 month old puppy as a producer, that is their choice, but I would not pay premium prices for a puppy out of that litter as the buyer's risk is much higher, and the eventual puppy buyer is expected to care for that dog for the rest of its life, including all of the resulting expenses. When said puppy dog is bred to an equally unproven bitch, the risk just increases, A 10 month old puppy is not old enough to have proven themselves worthy of anything except possibly being kept as a prospect. No one has invested anything in that dog to a meaningful extent, so to charge premium prices for its offspring seems ridiculous. Every breed club out there provides guidelines regarding what to look for in a breeder and in the sire/dam of a potential puppy. This goes against everything recommended and good common sense.
We ARE paying double for puppies out of champion sires, etc. Bitch owners pay higher stud fees for proven dogs as well. This is what theoretically makes the difference between backyard bred pup prices and well-bred pup prices. The breeder actually invest their time, $ and energy into their dogs and ensuring they are breeding only the best. When we see more and more young puppy males being bred to bitches that do nothing but sit in a whelping box, I have to wonder what the difference is between that and a BYB litter, other than the price."
This is utter nonsense. I have a young boy not yet 2 yrs. He has OFA EX prelims/elbows pass/Echo/Optigen/EIC clear/CERF , I hardly think that using a young dog with those clearances is the same as a BYB ! Expecially when both of his parents are MBISS CH.with all their clearances. Some people speak without knowing anything about the subject!
Actually it is not utter nonsense in many cases. For one thing, breeding on prelims is becoming the in thing now and is done as readily by inexperienced 5-minute in the breed breeders as it is by long time breeders. From what I have seen, it is mostly done to prove studs early so the stud fees can start coming in. Rarely is the young 8 month old fabulous or so outstanding as to stand out among all the other young boys out there. I know a fairly long-term breeder who allowed her young stud to be used prior to a heart clearance being done (he was well under 12 months which is needed for a clearance) and he ended up being TVD affected, with numerous litters on the ground. That offspring is being bred to pedigrees I would not use in that case because the owners are totally unaware. The dog itself just disappeared. I have seen the same with dogs bred on hip and elbow prelims out of lines that have produced more than their fair share of joint issues - dogs not only fail finals, but do so with grade 2 or worse elbows, etc. The kids end up with the same issues. The breeders just continue on with the same dogs producing the same issues.
I also see well-known stud dogs being bred to questionable bitches that I would not consider more than a pet at best.
I thought breeding was to improve the breed or at least maintain a certain quality. I would think a bitch owner (who has to live with whatever is produced) would want to see dogs in their prime to ensure they have held up beyond their teenage years and have proven themselves worthy in some way. Do breed experts find these dogs worthy of points? Have they proven themselves to have adequate work ethic? Do their joint prelims hold up beyond 15 months? Betting on an 8 month old is a very large risk. Other than pure pedigree on paper, what would make anyone look at a puppy dog and say, he is perfect for my mature, proven bitch? Most of them disappear by the time they are 3 and if you would not consider using them then, why would you use them at 8 months? A lot of these dogs have only been seen in pictures.
I have always wondered, given the increased risk, WHAT IS THE HURRY? No stud dog or stud owner is "owed" a certain number of breedings in the dog's lifetime. The true cases of "the bitch is aging and this is her last litter and this is the pedigree I have been waiting for" are very small, so that is not what drives this. The practice does not jive with the advice breed clubs give to puppy buyers looking for their next family member, so why? I do believe $ and ego drive quite a bit of it. People want their boy used or the bitch owner wants the "newest" thing out there - everyone wants a steady stream of babies to show in sweeps. Once in a blue moon the puppy dog is truly something special, but again, this is pretty rare. Then there are the bitches being bred at 20 months - why? What cannot wait until later, unless you KNOW this bitch is only going to cycle every 24 months, which again is not common.
Obviously people can and will do what they want, it just does not seem to agree with breeding programs intent on improvement or the highest quality.
