Why can't you wait?

I was going to breed to a dog with prelims and glad I didn't because other dogs in the litter came up with issues.

Who told you it's not OK to breed on prelims? Lots of us do it - lots more who (probably) won't admit to it. Take a great producer like (the now deceased) Savoy .. he never had an OFA. Want to take a guess how many breeders used him?

What's the big deal. Across the pond, clearances are given at one year.

People are going to do what they want. If you know your lines and feel comfortable, that is your choice, as long as you are willing to take responsibility for what you produce and are honest regarding clearances with your puppy buyers.

Breeding on prelims has become very common, and the boys are getting younger and younger. I always laugh when people get uptight about others "breeding to clearances", because the opposite seems to be more popular. I somewhat understand breeders wanting to prove their own young boys (although what is the hurry other than more stud fee $?), but really never understood why bitch owners would pay $$$ for an unproven dog. A 10 month old dog may have had time to win a few sweeps classes, but there are a lot of sweeps winners who never go on to accomplish anything else, and some disappear entirely. This is likely due to failed clearances or that the dog never lived up to his early potential. Either way, that is not a dog I would want to include in a breeding program. Everyone seems in such a rush these days - discovering the new "it" dog seems to outweigh giving the dog some time to prove himself worthy of adding to the gene pool - this not only includes clearances, but some accomplishments that make him more than just another pretty puppy.

All the big names are doing it, why not do it too. What it basically boils down to is do what's right for you because no matter what someone says, there are plenty of others that do it the other way.

Prelims, missing clearances, etc. It's all fair game these days.

Are big names jumping off the cliff also. Jumping with them ? Do what you want but I hear of more problems with these younger dogs, be it bad hip,elbows, offspring eyes droop, seizure since the pup you are using just had his first, now you have a litter coming ? All that sounds like fun to tell the poor puppy family. There are plenty of nice older proven dogs out. JMHO

Because it's against many clubs' Code of Ethics.
Because you won't get puppy referrals from some of us.
Because we've heard so many big wig breeders say, "oops! Sorry 'bout that, just like grandpa, he failed his final OFA elbows" (or insert hips, eyes, cardiac, etc here).
Because you know nothing about the basic health (allergies, neuro, etc) at age 1.
Because temperament is still an unknown.
Because working ability is an unknown and this is a sporting breed. Ooops, like that's a big deal to most anyhow...
Because you are greedy. Afterall, are you cutting your sales price in half since you've not spent nor accomplished anything w/ this dog training/show wise let alone the clearances?

He is actually performance titled. He could also run the JH which we may also do this fall; he's nuts about retrieving - very birdy. So the above isn't totally true. I don't know that I'm greedy, he has what I'm looking for all in one package, except final clearances. Parents are EIC clear, PRA clear, Cardiac clear, it's just hips and elbows really and yes, I agree, they are important, but as someone pointed out, clearances are done much earlier in other countries.

Still undecided and listening, keep it coming. Thanks for all the responses!!

You are a smart person. Asking is the right thing to do.
Do his pre-lims and if they comeback good/excellent and the elbows are spotless, go ahead and use him. I have a trained eye and I can see little defects that might not cause the dog to fail, but could be the begging of some bone changes. Use a trained radiologist that would tell you if he sees any potential problem even if OFA comes back all good. If you get not so good hips or iffy elbows, then wait on him and repeat in 6 months or wait for the 24 months mark to get his finals. I have 2 boys around 1 year of age and both got excellent hips and the elbows were very clean. They are doing well at the shows and I'm using one of them in about a month or so and they are going to be used by other breeders too. All other clearances are good too.

I have done it with both my boys. I think that if you have prelims and it all looks right - absolutely do it.

If we all really cared about the breed, we would have our dogs re-x-rayed and recertified every year during their breeding years and then afterwards. Other breeders who used our stud dogs would want to know how those hips and elbows held up over time.

And, for that matter, every breeding animal should be genetically tested for every possible genetic problem where there is a test available.

And, there should be centers sponsored by either the AKC or LRC where dogs should be temperament tested and certified before they are used at stud.

Breeder wrote," If we all really cared about the breed, we would have our dogs re-x-rayed and recertified every year during their breeding years and then afterwards. Other breeders who used our stud dogs would want to know how those hips and elbows held up over time. And, for that matter, every breeding animal should be genetically tested for every possible genetic problem where there is a test available. And, there should be centers sponsored by either the AKC or LRC where dogs should be temperament tested and certified before they are used at stud. "

I am not sure that I'd want to use a stud x-rayed that often: wouldn't there be an increase in defects to sperm and and an increase in cancer in those dogs?

I agree in breeding dogs with good temperaments. One can, however, teach to the test, any test. I remember a beautiful import who passed a CGC test with flying colors while under the Heel command, only to just a few days later go after a child who was scurrying past when she was waiting outside the breed ring. The roaring, not just the lunging, had me think that she was serious about at best correcting the child for running, and possibly she would have hurt the child. The owner had done a beautiful job of training the Lab for obedience and CGC, but she couldn't take the temperament and remold it. I do think that she would have passed a temperament test while under command. To the owner's credit, I do not think that the girl was bred, or at least she had no progeny on OFA when I peeked.

Ethics you are right on with what most of us believe. Don't be fooled by a bunch of clear this or clear that. It good but there is so much more to it. Seizure would not have shown up in your pup yet. Heart might not have. Most of us do not want to pass on or add to our program bad elbows. It is not just the puppys you keep, it is where the rest of the litter would go and those family who trusted you and now have a lame puppy. Just wait.

Ummmm, because he's a puppy!

I think everywhere in Europe we can do finals after one year and I don't think that "our" statics in hips and elbows are any worse then in USA.

Put yourself in a place a year from now if a pup owner calls you w/ a problem, or if your boy fails something when doing the final clearances. How will you feel? Would it have still been worth it to rush the breeding at that point? Will your girl still be available when he turns 2? Because to me, I hate dealing w/ puppy problems regardless. I'd feel awful knowing I didn't do everything I could in advance to prevent a problem. As someone else says, doo doo happens. But if you dot all the i's, and cross the t's that you can, then at least you can take some comfort in knowing you did all you could to produce a sound litter. JMO.

Just an aside: Do you have a *performance title* or a companion event title? I think there may be some confusion there since hunt test titles ARE our breed's performance titles. Rally, obed, agility, and tracking fall under companion event titles. Not sure where they put coursing, but it's not exactly what I'd use as proof of trainability (chasing a plastic bag???).

You can breed a 4 year old with excellent hips/normal elbows and every other clearance and still wind up with problem puppies. I've heard many stories of breeding excellent to excellent and having more than half the litter wind up dysplastic. Not saying you don't do clearances but it doesn't mean that you won't have issues. I don't breed my girls on prelims because they are not mature enough to have puppies. Actually I don't usually breed until about three years old. But if I have a boy that prelimed excellent hips, that comes from good/excellent and normal elbows with no known heart issues and all other available clearances then yes, I would breed him.

One year is awfully young to judge how a male will come out IMO. What if he matures and you don't like something about him? I had a bitch that looked great until about a year old and a growth spurt made her long.

Well, in that case, good luck finding that perfect stud dog! Every dog has it's issues. I have found that what I see at 8 weeks is pretty much what I will get when the dog is mature.

I thought the above comment was over the top until I read this:

Quote Reply Re: Why not breed on prelims?
If we all really cared about the breed, we would have our dogs re-x-rayed and recertified every year during their breeding years and then afterwards. Other breeders who used our stud dogs would want to know how those hips and elbows held up over time.

And, for that matter, every breeding animal should be genetically tested for every possible genetic problem where there is a test available.

And, there should be centers sponsored by either the AKC or LRC where dogs should be temperament tested and certified before they are used at stud. End of Quote

Over the last 30 years I have known many successful, good, well tempered, retrieving, sound, beautiful dogs there were used before they were 2 years old. You can't breed solely on clearances and expect to have anything that will stand the test of time. Europe and Great Britain do clearances at a year of age and they are testimony to the fact of years of success. You can certainly tell if a dog is birdy by a year of age. You can certainly tell if a dog has a good temperament by a year of age. You can certainly tell about the health of your breeding stock simply by the fact that you've been doing this for many years and know what your problems are. You are not greedy if you breed a dog on prelims; you are passionate, informed and know what you want. If we did this for money we'd have quit long ago. As to re-x-raying and recertifing our breeding stock on a yearly basis, I would imagine that as with humans, constant exposure to such is not healthy nor would it be useful as you will always see changes as the dog matures and ages.

I would breed one of my dogs on prelims if I really knew the lines. Would I expect anyone else to? That is a different question.

As some posters have alluded to, there are 2 issues to breeding on prelims. 1) How accurate are the prelims for the potential characteristic being tested for?
2) Why breed to a young dog when there are so many stud dogs out there who have produced many litters?

As far as #1 goes, I totally trust hip and elbow clearances after 18 mos old. I would never breed to a dog with prelims done prior to 1 year.

As far as # 2 goes, I much prefer to breed to a dog who has already sired a number of litters and therefore more is known about what he may or may not produce. If he were my own dog, that is very different. Somebody has to be first and if you won't breed to your own stuff, who will?

I guess I should have put one of those smiley faces in my reply. I was being heavily facetious. Except for my dog :) :) :), there might be one other dog in the whole world to choose from if you follow my advice. And, that sure is not good for genetics.

In my real opinion, do what you want to do. Very few of us really do not care about our breeding programs or future Labrador generations. No matter what you do, someone will find fault even if you follow my ridiculous prescription. And. . . no matter what you do, if you stay in the game long enough, a problem will surface. Your merit as a breeder will be how you deal with the problem.

Good luck everyone. This is not for the faint of heart. There is nothing cuter than a litter of perfect Labrador puppies and nothing more heartbreaking than a defective puppy.

You can tell if a dog is "birdy" or has a good temperament at 6 months too. But is that enough? Has the dog had time to prove itself in the field (being eager to pick up a bird wing or a bird does not equate to a dog having a soft mouth, sitting quietly in a blind or while honoring another dog’s work, being steady so as to be a safe hunting companion, having good marking ability, showing perseverance on a hunt, or being eager to enter water when asked (as opposed to when the dog feels like it). I have judged several Working Certificate tests and AKC hunt tests, and it has been a little alarming lately to see the number of dogs that chew on birds, play with the birds, have no basic obedience (therefore showing no trainability), and go out of their way to avoid water. I think it IS possible to evaluate a young dog, but there are very few people these days who know how to properly do it or are even interested in a dog’s working ability. Many people just want a title and the fact the dog earned it in spite of its lack of natural ability (or in many cases, poor trainability)is ignored. Also, there are not a lot of show lines with pedigrees full of working dogs to fall back on in lieu of proving the dog itself.

Has a 6 to 10 month old dog been exposed to enough situations and people to ensure they truly have a good temperament?

I know someone who publicly joked that they should probably get X dog’s clearances done now that he has sired a number of litters (!). He was 10 -12 months old. That dog turned out to be TVD affected. There are numerous litters being bred out of puppies who are not yet one – there is NO heart clearance that can be done prior to 12 months. Any prelim joint evaluation prior to 12 months is not something I would consider a "clearance"

Yes, there are a lot of countries that do clearances younger than 2 years. At the same time, there are also a lot of regulations over breeding animals in many of those countries. Many breeding animals are REQUIRED to pass a set temperament test before they are allowed to be bred. Many others are required to pass a working test. In these cases dogs are not bred before these things are evaluated.

We bred our stud dog at 13 months, he had a wind morgan clearance on hips, hocks, shoulders, and elbows. Also was OFA good on prelims, and later on was OFA good on hips, and OFA clear on elbows.

He came from a top breeder, and she said it was fine with her, and went on to tell me about a top producer that was bred young, too.

I am glad that I bred him that young, and he was a good stud dog.

There are a lot of anecdotal stories about dogs that were bred young and went on to be good producers. What no one talks about are the numbers of dogs that are bred and go on to fail clearances, because those dogs just disappear quietly. There are always going to be success stories. I am not saying people should not make their own decisions, just that these anecdotal stories don't mean anything because they never show the full picture. It would be like checking OFA to see how big of an issue hearts are in this breed. Per OFA listings, one would assume there is almost no TVD in this breed because no one lists the issues, only positive results. Yet there is a lot of concern about TVD - why? Because it exists but no one is willing to openly talk about it. Same thing with seizures. For people who are interested in what a dog is producing, 13 months is not going to tell them anything as the dog itself is unlikely to have many accomplishments or long health history. He certainly won't have pups on the ground that have a health history.

Personally, I prefer to see the dog at maturity to make sure he lived up to his potential before creating another generation. My bitches are not bred before they are two, and more than likely will not be bred until 3-4 when they have come into themselves, have accomplishments (i.e., they are finished and have proven themselves in the field), and have passed their clearances (and my bitches have the same clearances as my stud dogs). I am not going to take a bitch like this to a puppy dog.

Curious, I commend you for putting yourself out there for all the slings and arrows of opinionated breeders. Sounds like you are being reasonable, studying the breed, and are keeping an open mind to all possibilities.
OFA used to give their certification at one year of age. They switched to two years for final OFA certification because they found that 5% of the dogs tested changed from one year to two. That means that 95% of the dogs tested did NOT change from one year to two.
A color doppler ultrasound can be done at one year of age for TVD, so if that has not been done, you would serve yourself well to do that.
Also, it does depend on your knowledge of the line and the honesty of the breeders involved, i.e., as far as epilepsy, for instance, which does not typically show up until after two. And optigen and EIC can be done now. If all these tests clear and you have experience under your belt with this line, then I would definitely consider using him.
Years ago I bred to a dog who was 18 months old, who was linebred on Ch. Monarch's Black Arrogance. I was very familiar with this line and appreciated how clean it was. I made an educated decision to breed to this youngster, and never looked back. The result of that breeding affects my line and the lines of several others in a positive way to this day!

I am glad I didn't use Savoy and honestly don't care how many did use him. I steer away from him in a pedigree today for my own reasons. That was a poor example.

I won't use a boy without all final clearances just as I won't breed my girls before they have passed their finals.

As it is, we're shooting the dice any time we breed. Why take additional chances? I know of many boys that won and some finished at specialties, even Potomac while young and then turned out quite different at ages 2, 3 & 4. Some didn't pass finals or their cardiac testing.

Curious, you have him, he's yours so you're lucky to have a boy that you feel will benefit your own breeding program. Why not wait until all of his finals unless you have a girl who needs to be bred now because of age?

You haven't bred to prelims before for reasons, why do it differently now? He's not going any place. He's in your own home or kennel.

I wish you luck no matter what you decide to do. Ultimately, it is your decision but a great question to ask of others. Then you can make your own decision.

The only problem asking an important question on a board like this is you don't know who you're getting replies from. They may be seasoned, long time breeders or on the other hand, they could be puppy millers, BYB's or newbies. Maybe you should be asking your long time, breeder friends or others that you know are knowledgeable.

You make sense! I didn't think of it but you're right. It's her dog, she can use him anytime so what's the hurry to breed him b4 finals. If anything, maybe she wants to begin sperm banking after preliminaries. If he does as well as she thinks he will, she'll have frozen ready to go when needed for herself; other breeders or to ship overseas.

Have you done the x-rays? Wondering what you got and what did you decide to do if you did.
I think that it all depends on what he gets. If he prelims excellent/good and normal, I would use him. If he prelims fair, I would not use him until passing finals.

"OFA used to give their certification at one year of age. They switched to two years for final OFA certification because they found that 5% of the dogs tested changed from one year to two. That means that 95% of the dogs tested did NOT change from one year to two." I find this statement by Old Timer very interesting. When did OFA change to 2 years and why 2 years and not 18 months?

He'll be x-rayed tomorrow. He has several shows and companion competitions in the next few weeks. We'll see how all of this pans out.

I'm still thinking, thanks to all for all of the replies!!

Just FYI here is the link to Savoy's hip and elbow results as posted on OFA http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=437562#animal Perhaps next time you will check your facts.

He not only had an OFA rating but in 1993 with the old 18 mo. age OFA rule, they did his elbows too. Not all did. I know I didn't begin until a couple of years later.

I wonder if she thought of looking on the OFA site or went by her eh, memory. I always take her postings with a salt grain. I am glad you corrected that misinformation. Cheers!

As far as Savoy goes, the results posted on OFA seem as though they were GDC and only became OFA after the fact, when the GDC gave their database over to OFA, I believe. I think his prelims were allowed in because the GDC was a more open registry, so publication of results was allowed when his "prelims" were taken. Therefore, I believe Marjorie is technically right about him never having been OFA'd, and I would bet she heard it from his owner. There are other reasons for which I would not have used him, no matter how lovely his pups were. To each his or her own taste. Here is the link and proof:

http://www.gdcinstitute.org/gdcnews.htm
Here is what is on that web page:


May 9 , 2003

GDC Data on New OFA Website

www.offa.org

OFA has launched their updated website which now includes the GDC database (except the Eye and Tumor registries which are still maintained by GDC).

The new OFA site features great search functions and easy access to the close relatives of the dog you want information on. GDC dogs and their various screenings are clearly marked, and the results of the evaluations are displayed.

Please visit the new OFA website . . . .



Feb. 3, 2003

OFA Processing GDC Data for Merge

In December, GDC transferred data for all registries except the Eye and Tumor registries to OFA. OFA now is in the process of preparing that data for merging with their online data base. GDC will provide progress reports as OFA prepares for the actual merge of data, and we will make an announcement when the GDC information becomes available on the OFA site.

The GDC information continues to be available through the GDC searchable registry site. You can search that site to find if a dog in question is GDC-registered, and then order online a KinReport™ for evaluation information on a specific dog and any close relatives also in the GDC registry.