Although you have a smaller amount of time to breed with frozen semen then fresh, it sounds as if you were spot on to me. Actually for fresh, chilled or frozen.

I've bred a few times to frozen, never missed and most litters were 7 to 8 puppies. Remember, the girls don't always ovulate at 5 ng-ml, it's between 5 & 10, some say 8 but it depends on the bitch.

http://www.vetmed.lsu.edu/eiltslotus/theriogenology-5361/k9_breeding_management.htm


Read this Chart!

http://www.vetmed.lsu.edu/eiltslotus/theriogenology-5361/k9_bre5.gif
or



Your packs' behavior probably meant she was more than likely close to ready. Did this behavior continue through the surgical insemination?

I really do think you caught it, just in time which is where you want to be. Remember the semen went directly into the uterine horn-horns, not having to race through the cervix to get to mature eggs ready to be fertilized. The AKC via Dr. Hutch claims it's the most successful way of breeding. http://classic.akc.org/vetoutreach/headlinenews_13.cfm

I've seen frozen semen under the microscope immediately before a breeding of a girl of mine. No one told me what percentage the collection was or should have been at freeze thaw but a lot of the sperm appeared dead to me. I saw more dead than live. First a belly, then 8 puppies later I let out a sigh of relief.

Please try to post when you know something. I think it might help others not to breed too early especially when their regular vet doing prog. levels tells them to breed at a 5.0. Some breeders panic when their bitch reaches 5.0 because of it, there's no reason to. Jmo.

BTW, Do you know how many straws were used?

Hi, you have provided me with a lot of helpful information, thank you so much, I appreciate your informed response!
Having done many, many breedings in my lifetime, I am familiar with progesterone timing, and can say that in 25 years of breeding, only once did I miss, pretty good track record! But frozen is new to me, and I got conflicting information from my vet and the semen bank, so I was a little insecure about timing. Plus this bitch spiked really quickly, going from 0.5 on Thurs. noon to 11.3 on Monday pm (4 days). So when did she ovulate? I'm guessing Sunday night, since the progesterone doubles every day after 5.0.
To answer your questions, my male (young and inexperienced) was most interested Sunday through Wednesday. Wednesday night and Thursday, still lots of interest. Friday, less, although I did not have them together again until Monday. My bitch never did swell a lot, but even now, over a week later, her vulva still a bit swollen, and my male still sniffs her, interested, every morning. The interesting thing, behavior again, is that she is a little quieter, more tired, wants tummy-rubs, instead of racing around outside with the other dogs---a good sign!
No straws, but pellets, and they provided the proper amount of pellets to equal one breeding. Even my vet said they provided the proper amount of pellets.
Thank you again for providing information and reassurance from your experience, never any guarantees, but it made me feel better! And yes I will let you know as soon as I find out. I am remaining positive!

Well.....as it turned out, did the ultrasound, and my bitch did NOT get pregnant, so we did not catch it in time, and the semen bank will be hearing from me (as you remember, they said they could not ship the semen the morning I asked them to).
I am mad at myself for not demanding they ship that day or driving up to the semen bank (5 hours away), or having enough imagination to think of a "Plan B" dog (no local dogs in my area that would have fit the bill for my bitch).
Anyway, lesson learned, always follow your gut and ask for what you want. Regrets are a terrible thing to have!
Everything else was in place, bitch healthy and normal, the only thing that was amiss was the timing, as usual! :-0

I'm so sorry...very disappointing. Thank you so much for posting again for us. That was pretty selfless.

Thanks for the update but sorry it isn't better news.

Since Fedex delivers on Saturday they have Monday's off.

Hmmmm This is the second post today that said progesterone doubles every day. That is not correct. Once it hit 5.0, it goes up 5 more every day. So, after hitting 5.0, the following days would be 10, 15 and 20. Hutch ran a progesterone when he did a surgical on my girl 3 days after she hit 5.0 It was 22.0 She had 12 puppies!!!

I'm sorry to hear you missed. The one time I did a frozen a day earlier than I wanted, (the vet couldn't do it the next day) we ended up with 8 puppies. Since she missed with a surgical are you going to do a guarded culture to see if there is anything there?

I'm sorry you missed, but the timing was right on looking at the numbers.

Tiffany that is a really good idea, and I will do that, was considering that for next time anyway.
Well, from what I'm hearing from several people on the forum and others, three days after hitting 5.0 is considered good timing. I will maybe poll the forum about that in a separate post, to compare other breeders' experiences.
I really value the comments and support from those who responded---thank you, that's what this Forum is all about!
By the way, she would be due Saturday, and appears pregnant, except for no big belly. So she's in a major false pregnancy. Teats are prominent, she is tired and lovey-dovey, ravenously hungry, just no puppies!

I'd treat her as possibly pregnant just to be safe. Since she was bred and has some signs, is it possible that she has only one or a couple puppies? A friend has a champion from a bitch who was "definitely not pregnant" on relaxin tests, ultrasound, x-ray, etc. The two pups only appeared on x ray the day she was whelping! Then there was the rescue who had SEVEN puppies tucked somewhere under her rib cage invisibly. . . until we got the call from the boarding kennel who had only had her 10 days that there were two pups and more on the way. I realize that it is unlikely, but after all you put into this breeding and for her health, better safe than sorry.

We've done 3 frozen breedings total on 3 different bitch's. No misses, a small litter due to a timing delay of 12 hours we couldn't prevent and there were still 2 live puppies born. The 2 others were litters of 8 and 9 live puppies. All were non surgical, TCI's. The two most successful were done at 19ng-ml and 26ng-ml, progesterone was done 1 more time at the time of the breedings. It's not a bad idea to do 1 more at that time. For all you're spending, what is 1 more progesterone level in the grand scheme of things?

You have a good chance of the timing being right as long as she ovulated a normal amount of eggs and the semen was decent when thawed. Tuesday evening would have been a little better but it still sounds okay. It's always a smaller window of time with frozen but you sound as if you were right on the money especially doing a surgical implant (or TCI.) Do post what happens either way for others to see there is nothing wrong with some no.'s like that. Too many panic as soon as the bitch hits a 5.0 and begin breeding too early, sometimes based on a GP Vet's advice reading the information from Antech or Idexx which is incorrect. Ovulation takes place between 5.0 and 10, usually around 8.0. Not 5.0 on the nose necessarily.

Did you use Antech or Idexx out of curiousity? Idexx is known for getting faster-same day results back if notified and being a little more accurate.

If you're that worried, spend $40 + or - and call Hutch for his opinion. I think you'll be fine. Time will tell, so relax. Next time find another vet that does progesterone levels on at least Saturdays as a back up. Waiting the entire weekend is unacceptable when you're getting that close to a surgical implant with frozen semen. Jmo. Why was her next level done late on Monday instead of the morning? Again, just curious, if it should have been done on the weekend then the earlier Monday the better. You would have had results by 4 in the afternoon from morning testing instead of Tuesday morning. That's over a 12 hour difference.

P.S. I saw the thawed semen from my litter of 8, I couldn't see many live, swimming sperm. I don't know what the count was but I didn't like what I saw. Obviously, either they didn't all wake up yet or it still worked just fine anyway. Treat it like any other breeding at this point, wait and see and keep the pack away from her. Good luck.