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Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

So Aristotle's argument for a prime mover is weak because Aristotle's understanding of causation is limited?

Sorry if I misunderstood, but is that the weakness of the prime mover argument?

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Also, can you give me an example or explanation of motion as an essence? Would this mean that motion is a substance?

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Dave
So Aristotle's argument for a prime mover is weak because Aristotle's understanding of causation is limited?

Sorry if I misunderstood, but is that the weakness of the prime mover argument?
I didn't say that. I said the picture is much larger and more complex than it seems.

Something about you (optional) logician-philosopher

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Dave
Also, can you give me an example or explanation of motion as an essence? Would this mean that motion is a substance?
Motion is not a substance. (Indeed, what is a substance? Just an analogical term, reflecting Aristotle's Material cause. But that's a wider issue.)
Examples of motion as essence are plentiful. The essence of a runner is that he or it runs. The essence of a clock is that it measures or reflects the passage of time. And so forth.
Also, the purposes of man-made objects are often motions, note well. Like the said clock. For example, a car is a vehicle made to move people. This is Aristotle's fourth cause - the Final cause.
There is also the quasi-purposive in Nature - for instance the functions of bodily organs in the sustenance of the organism's life.

Dave, I suggest we stop this conversation and you read some of my works on causality. You'll find all answers there, if you are really looking for them. Best regards, Avi.

Something about you (optional) logician-philosopher

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

FORMALLY, as I already stated, "the relation "If C then E; if not-C then not-E" (to take for example the strongest determination of causation) does not change whether C and E are static things or dynamic events."


Hi Avi, I know this is an old thread but I've just started reading The Logic of Causation (LC) and am a bit confused in regard to your characterization of C and E above as "static things" or "dynamic events". Don't C and E stand for propositions, and not terms? If so, C and E must be true or false, but things and events, whether static or dynamic, are neither.

Well ok, I suppose you could express an event as a proposition, eg "The Cat sat on the mat", is an event, but it isn't a thing; only "cat" and "mat" are things. Unless you mean that if dynamic the C and E refer to propositions but if static they refer to terms? But that can't be correct; C and E must be propositions. Could you give a concrete example of a static and dynamic proposition? Must C and E be one or the other, ie mutually exclusive and exhaustive?

In LC, Chapter 1, you write :

If the cause shifts from absent to present, the effect invariably shifts from absent to present;

if the cause shifts from present to absent, the effect invariably shifts from present to absent;


Are there not 2 more possibilities here? ie :

If the cause shifts from absent to present, the effect invariably shifts from present to absent;
If the cause shifts from present to absent, the effect invariably shifts from absent to present;

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Hi Joe. In reply to your queries:

1) static predication would refer to a quality causing a quality - for instance, stillness of mind causing inner peace; whereas a dynamic predication would refer to an activity causing an activity - for instance, running causing sweating. You can of course formulate the cause and effect as sentences, e.g. if one's mind is still, then one feels at peace, etc. Generally, a static thing does not cause (deterministically) a dynamic one, but in volition the agent (a self, soul) is something static and his act (whatever he wills) is something dynamic. See in this regard Volition and Allied Causal Concepts.

2) Regarding your comment "Are there not 2 more possibilities here? ie : If the cause shifts from absent to present, the effect invariably shifts from present to absent; If the cause shifts from present to absent, the effect invariably shifts from absent to present;" - the answer is no, formally: the cause and effect are C and E - i.e. things (whether in fact, materially, one or both be positive or negative in polarity) considered as positive terms. So, we go from the absence of the cause not-C to its presence C, and this brings about the movement from not-E to E; or we go from C to not-C and correspondingly from E to not-E. If C causes not-E, then the term not-E (whatever its content) should be called E; or if not-C causes E, then the term E should be called not-E. The letters C, E, and their negations, are here intended as formal (i.e. whatever their material polarities). Of course, materially a positive thing may cause a negative, and a negative may cause a positive. E.g. The Covid-19 pandemic (positive) may cause economic losses (negative).

I hope that is now clear, otherwise do tell me. Best regards, Avi

Something about you (optional) logician-philosopher

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Hi Avi,

Thanks for the clarification. Conditional propositions are used in causation, but not all propositions of the form if P, then Q express causality. eg. if fido is a dog, then fido is a mammal expresses a relation of inclusion between P and Q, not causality. Another example is if it's 4 pm, then I'm late for class, in which P implies Q but doesn't cause it. I guess it's down to common sense to decide whether an if-then proposition is causal?

But, does it even matter whether the propositions are causal? Since the Generic Determinations are formal, they should "work" for any kind of if-then propositions, right?

You've defined the meaning of "cause", but your definition is very broad and it's a very abstract concept, so it's not always easy to see in any given proposition whether the relation is causal between P and Q. But the Generic Determinations are in a sense tests aren't they? For a given determination of causality, if the propositions which make it up are all true, then the relation between P and Q is causal (of the type for which the set of propositions apply).

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Hi Joe.

There are several types or modes of causation: notably, natural, temporal, spatial, extensional and logical, also ethical, corresponding to the different types or modes of modality. The general form is the same, but the specific form per type or mode is slightly different. On this topic, see Future Logic the part on conditional propositions, and Logic of Causation chapt. 10.2, among others.

Thus, if fido is a dog, then fido is a mammal, points to an extensional causation, or even a logical causation (given that all dogs are mammals). On the other hand, if it's 4 pm, then I'm late for class points to a natural causation.

Causative propositions differ from mere conditional propositions, in that the former give an all-round picture of if-then connections, whereas the latter give mere one-sided pictures.

Yes, given that the full set of if-then propositions is thus or thus, then you have a causative relation (deterministic causality), though to repeat the type or mode may vary. So, the given definitions are indeed general, and there is no further logical possibilities of combinations between them than the four stated - the other possibilities all leading to inconsistency, as I have proved.

That is why the claims by skeptics like Hume that causation does not exist is absolutely wrong.

Regards, Avi

Something about you (optional) logician-philosopher

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Thanks again Avi.

Since this thread is about the cosmological argument (Aquinas' 2nd Way), here it is (taken from Just The Arguments) :

The Second Way – The Argument from Causation

Whereas the First Way focused on accidental changes, the Second Way
focuses on ordered series of efficient causation. An efficient cause is that
which produces something or an alteration in something. The composer is
the efficient cause of the sonata; the fire is the efficient cause of the heating
of the kettle. An ordered series is a series in which the causal work of later
members in the series depends on the simultaneous causal work of earlier
members in the series. If the fire heats the kettle and the kettle heats the
water, it is an ordered series, since the kettle’s heating the water depends
upon the causal activity of the earlier cause, the fire. Likewise, a system of
gears is an ordered causal series, since the causal action of one intermediate
gear spinning another, later gear depends upon the causal activity of previ-
ous gears in the system. Aquinas argues in the Second Way, to continue
with the gear image, that the system cannot be gears all the way back. An
infinite series of gears, without a first cause of their spinning, would not be
in motion.


We find that among sensible things there is an ordering of efficient causes,
and yet we do not find – nor is it possible to find – anything that is an efficient
cause of its own self. For if something were an efficient cause of itself, then
it would be prior to itself – which is impossible.
But it is impossible to go on to infinity among efficient causes. For in every
case of ordered efficient causes, the first is a cause of the intermediate and the
intermediate is a cause of the last – and this regardless of whether the inter-
mediate is constituted by many causes or by just one. But when a cause is
removed, its effect is removed. Therefore, if there were no first among the
efficient causes, then neither would there be a last or an intermediate. But if
the effi cient causes went on to infinity, there would not be a first efficient
cause, and so there would not be a last effect or any intermediate efficient
causes, either – which is obviously false. Therefore, one must posit some first
efficient cause – which everyone calls God. (ST I, q2, a3, response)


1. P1. There is an ordered series of efficient causes.
2. P2. Necessarily, if X is an efficient cause of Y, then X is prior to Y.
3. C1. Necessarily, if X is an efficient cause of X, then X is prior to X
(instantiation, P2).
4. P3. It is not possible for X to be prior to X.
5. C2. It is not possible for X to be an efficient cause of itself
(modus tollens,C1, P3).
6. P4. If something is an ordered series of efficient causes, then the first cause
causes the intermediate cause(s), and the intermediate cause(s) cause(s)
the last effect.
7. P5. If a cause is removed from an ordered series of efficient causes, then
the effects after that cause are removed as well.
8. C3. If there were no first cause, then there would be no subsequent effects
(instantiation, P4, P5).
9. P6. If an ordered series of efficient causes could precede infinitely, then there
would be no first cause.
10. C4. If an ordered series of efficient causes could precede infinitely, then
there would be no subsequent effects (hypothetical syllogism, C3, P6).
11. P7. But there are subsequent effects.
12. C5. An ordered series of efficient causes cannot precede infinitely
(modus tollens , C4, P7).
13. P8. An ordered series of efficient causes either precedes infinitely, terminates
in a cause that causes itself, or terminates in an uncaused cause.
14. C6. An ordered series of efficient causation terminates in an uncaused
cause (disjunctive syllogism, C2, C5, P8).
15. C7. We call that uncaused cause “God” (definition).

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Joe.

Looking at this quote from Aquinas, "But when a cause is
removed, its effect is removed. Therefore, if there were no first among the
efficient causes, then neither would there be a last or an intermediate. But if
the efficient causes went on to infinity, there would not be a first efficient
cause, and so there would not be a last effect or any intermediate efficient
causes, either – which is obviously false. Therefore, one must posit some first
efficient cause" - I would say the following:
First, he talks vaguely of efficient causes but does not make any distinction between complete and partial causation or between necessary and contingent causation. Thus, when he says "when the cause is removed, its effect is removed" he is referring to necessary causation, but unconsciously.
Second, this sentence is a non-sequitur. "Therefore, if there were no first among the
efficient causes, then neither would there be a last or an intermediate." One can well imagine an infinite string of prior causes but which stops at some point. No logical reason why not. Same with the next sentence.
In short, this argument gives the impression of being an argument but it is just an arbitrary assertion.

As regards his claim "we do not find – nor is it possible to find – anything that is an efficient cause of its own self. For if something were an efficient cause of itself, then it would be prior to itself – which is impossible." Well, there is truth in that - within the natural world. But the paradox is that belief in God has to be belief that He is causeless, or His own cause. So, as an argument in favor of belief in God it is not very successful. We posit God as the Creator of the natural world (the universe apparent to us), but that only means he is its First Cause, and it does not provide an explanation of God's existence. I discuss this issue in my book Buddhist Illogic. There's no known solution to the problem. That's why I say we must believe on faith - we cannot do so for logical reasons. The logic is intractable.

Something about you (optional) logician-philosopher

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Hi Avi,


Second, this sentence is a non-sequitur. "Therefore, if there were no first among the
efficient causes, then neither would there be a last or an intermediate." One can well imagine an infinite string of prior causes but which stops at some point. No logical reason why not. Same with the next sentence.
In short, this argument gives the impression of being an argument but it is just an arbitrary assertion.


I don't see why the sentence is a non-sequitur? Could you explain? I don't see the problem with it stopping at some point; it stops at the effect. If you mean it's infinite going back (prior cause preceded by prior cause, etc) then there can be no effect, because all causes in the chain other than the first are only "instrumental", and an instrumental cause derives whatever causal power it has from something else.


But the paradox is that belief in God has to be belief that He is causeless, or His own cause.


But the argument doesn't start from God, it starts from an analysis of change and causes of change. Bertrand Russell accused Aquinas of special pleading, but it's clear he didn't understand the argument. The very point of the argument is to demonstrate that God explains or causes himself; he is not an "effect". That may be paradoxical, but is it any more paradoxical than certain results in Quantum physics?

The obvious objection is that even if you admit the existence of a first cause, why should it be what we think of as God? Why couldn't it be some purely material force which science hasn't discovered yet?

Aquinas addresses all this at length in the S.T. and shows that the traditional attributes of God such as perfect goodness, omnipotence etc follow from the main argument. The above is just a very brief synopsis of 100s of pages of argumentation. I haven't actually read the S.T. myself, but philosopher Ed Feser has written a great book called Five Proofs of the Existence of God, which goes into a lot of detail and rebuts all the standard objections (and some not so standard ones).

He covers the Cosmological argument (the Aristotelian Proof) in chapter 1 which you can read in its entirety online at Google books. I would be interested in your thoughts on it, because although I find the argument convincing, I want to believe what's true, so if you can come up with any objections which haven't been addressed, I'd like to hear them.

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

"I don't see why the sentence is a non-sequitur? Could you explain? "

Let us suppose we are talking about an infinite chain of causes and effects, infinite backwards and forwards. And let us suppose we are referring to complete, and possibly even necessary, deterministic causes - to make things simple, as Aquinas seems to make them.

One can well imagine there being no first cause (i.e. infinity backwards) yet a last effect in this chain. Certainly, Aquinas considers it possible that there be a first cause, and a last effect. But he does not show why absence of a first cause logically necessarily implies absence of a last effect; he apparently considers last effects possible, in conjunction with first causes, but not (for an unstated reason) in conjunction with infinite chain of causes in the past. The truth is, given the definitions of causation in terms of collections of if-then statements, there is no basis for insisting on the pattern Aquinas conceives. The claim that "everything has a cause" is unproven formally (see my Logic of Causation chapter 10, 16 and 24). The same is true for the claim that "everything has an effect" - there are dead ends in the world.

Joe, I have studied Aristotle's arguments, though not Aquinas' in detail. The thing to understand is that there is not enough distinction in them between the different ways of causality. I am a believer in God by faith, not reason. Reason cannot settle the matter. The all-round theory of God's creation is that He created the material/mental world as a voluntary act, i.e. by volition, not because he was forced to by circumstances or some other power. A non-God natural force has presumably no volition, let alone such powerful volition, so that is out of the question. Now, volition is not causation, not deterministic causality - so in this thesis, the First Cause is not itself a product of causation, nor does it move by causative means. It is the Unmoved Mover.

Now, we take it that when God created the world, he did not initiate a chain of causation, a chain of deterministic actions and reactions. Rather, He set some general laws of nature, and He reserved for Himself some leeway for miracle (i.e. occasional at his discretion breach of those laws). He allowed for some natural spontaneity, according to modern Physics, at least at the level of sub-atomic particles and waves. He also especially allowed for some measure of human and perhaps animal volition (else there would be no right or wrong, if we were all mechanical dolls), similar on a much reduced scale to His own volitional power. Volition is not chance, spontaneity, but a distinct form of causality.

Thus, the image of causality apparently projected by Aquinas in the quoted excerpt (which is largely based on Aristotelian discussions) can be characterized as very simplistic. It refers only to deterministic causation, and does not take into account free volition (Divine or human-animal). Moreover, its understanding of the formal aspects of causation is, as I have pointed out already, limited - based on a vague and narrow view of the possibilities and varieties of causation. I should add that religions do conceive of there being an end to the world, just as there was (they believe) a beginning to it. The issue of God's origin is left quite open - we assume He was here Eternally and will be here Eternally.

All this is logically quite possible. I hope that helps. I am sorry but cannot right now pursue this further by reading the Ed Feser book, though I am sure it is quite interesting. I cannot get into some major discussion with him or you. My time is running out - time is flowing forth at super speed! Cheers, Avi

PS - see also my Volition and Allied Causal Concepts, chapters 1 and 2.

Something about you (optional) logician-philosopher

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Avi, reading your reply, I can't help thinking we're at cross purposes in this discussion of causes. I'm not denying that the distinctions you make - regarding volition and deterministic causation (and all of its species) - aren't important, but surely God, if He exists, is above all that and sustains it. Anyway, I won't pursue it any further since you're busy with other things. Are you working on a new book?

I hope you will be able to answer any further queries I may have on LC. I am an admirer of your work and am looking forward to reading your other books.

Cheers.

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Joe.
"but surely God, if He exists, is above all that and sustains it" - I quite agree.
That is, you may say, my whole point.

Just think of all the work thousands of scientists have put over time into understanding the natural universe. All the space telescopes, all the computer work, all the mathematical and conceptual theorizing. This yields an INDUCTIVE descriptive picture of the universe as we know it so far (best hypothesis to date), which is changing over time.

Now think of Aquinas or other philosophers sitting in their armchairs and DEDUCTIVELY *proving" in a few sentences or a few hundred pages, once and for all, that God exists and is the Creator of this universe, and so on. Is such a thing even conceivable? Is not such a claim pretentious? We hardly even today know the beginnings of the universe (Big Bang and before), except hypothetically. Can we nevertheless attain true and definitive understanding of the Divine source of the universe?

Clearly, Aquinas's argument is spin or wishful thinking or manipulation, call it what you like. His motives are no doubt good; but this lacks modesty, humility. One cannot deal with such a major issue so easily. We can at best THEORIZE, i.e. imagine the broad contours of God's position in the causing of this world. But He stands outside, over and above it, and the categories of reason we apply to Him can only be analogies. We cannot know what really and truly happened. That is my conviction.

If now you still think that Aquinas' cosmological argument proves God's existence and creator-role, then I invite you to logically prove the sentence in his argument that I have previously identified for you as an arbitrary assertion, and not truly a valid argument. Go ahead, I'm open-minded.

As regards reading or writing - I am currently basically not writing, but only reading. And my reading focuses on world history rather than on philosophy.

If you have any questions, do not hesitate to ask. All the best, Avi



Something about you (optional) logician-philosopher

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Avi,


Clearly, Aquinas's argument is spin or wishful thinking or manipulation, call it what you like. His motives are no doubt good; but this lacks modesty, humility. One cannot deal with such a major issue so easily. We can at best THEORIZE, i.e. imagine the broad contours of God's position in the causing of this world. But He stands outside, over and above it, and the categories of reason we apply to Him can only be analogies. We cannot know what really and truly happened. That is my conviction.



I think you're being a bit unfair to Aquinas here. He never maintained that we can "attain true and definitive understanding of the Divine source of the universe", and certainly not in scientific terms, merely by philosophical argument. But, the Catholic Church teaches that faith and reason are complementary, and rejects fideism (unlike the Protestant Church). Reason isn't enough; you also need faith, which puts flesh on the bones of philosophical argument.
I don't know enough about Judaism to comment; but didn't Maimonides also offer similar arguments to those of Aquinas?

Personally, I don't understand how anyone can just "have faith" without some foundation of logic (or metaphysics), perhaps because I was raised in a secular family and always considered the claims of the church as mumbojumbo. What is the point of thinking about what has been divinely revealed unless you have grounds for believing that it really has been divinely revealed in the first place? Aquinas' "Five Ways" and other arguments (such as fine tuning etc) provide that foundation on which revelation can rest. Without these, how would I know that my belief isn't mere wishful thinking?


If now you still think that Aquinas' cosmological argument proves God's existence and creator-role, then I invite you to logically prove the sentence in his argument that I have previously identified for you as an arbitrary assertion, and not truly a valid argument. Go ahead, I'm open-minded.



Therefore, if there were no first among the efficient causes, then neither would there be a last or an intermediate.


This seems almost self-evidently true to me, so I wouldn't know where to start with a proof, and I don't want to repeat what I have already written, except to say that if each cause in the series is instrumental (dependent), then there MUST be a first which is non-dependent, and without which, there is no last. I don't see how this can be coherently denied. It would be like saying a paintbrush with an infinitely long handle can paint by itself. But maybe after having read LC I will attempt a proof, or concede that none is possible.

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Joe.
I am not defending Judaism against Catholicism, or any religious text or doctrine, but writing philosophy. I have nothing against Aquinas, or any other philosopher writing on this subject. My point is that it is impossible for a philosopher to cook up an argument, in a few sentences or in a few hundred pages, which deductively proves that God exists or that God created the phenomenal world. Logic cannot produce such a grand result. We might imagine finding some empirical index that inductively proves this or that claim - i.e. that such index can only be logically explained by such claim - but no one has found such an inductive proof. In any case, it is inconceivable that there be a deductive proof. As I said, the best one can hope for is to drawn up a speculative outline, in broad brushstrokes, of what creation might be. The consensus on that seems to be that:
1) God, as we conceive Him, is Eternal - in past, present and future. Something eternal has no beginning and no end, and therefore can neither be created nor destroyed. Therefore, it is useless to look for an efficient cause of God. One might wonder how come he exists at all, just as one wonders how come the phenomenal world exists at all - but this is seeking explanation not causation of God or existence. God then creates the phenomenal world by free will, starting something in motion that was not there before, etc.
2) On the other hand, we regard the phenomenal world as having a beginning - brought about by God, granting monotheism - and probably also an end. There is no inconsistency in supposing that the world is thus temporally finite - but some do contend (and well may, so far as can be seen so far) that the material/mental world is itself eternal (without start or finish). The question is open - there is no axiom capable of proving definitively that the world is temporally finite. It is the job of scientists to deal with this question, and of course their opinions do vary over time.
3) As regards Aquinas' statement (which may be only one of many that I would challenge) - what is he saying here: "Therefore, if there were no first among the efficient causes, then neither would there be a last or an intermediate. " As far as I can tell, he is saying that a chain of causation that is eternal in the past is necessarily without end in the future. Right? Now, why does that seem self-evident to you? There is nothing axiomatic about it - the opposite is quite conceivable without inconsistency.
4) Your interpretation "if each cause in the series is instrumental (dependent), then there MUST be a first which is non-dependent, and without which, there is no last." - is even worse. Of course the middle causes in a causative chain are "dependent" by definition, having been caused. It does not follow that such a chain must have a first cause (non-dependent) - for an infinite chain would also in its middle have dependent causes, yet not a non-dependent first cause. And whether there is a first or not, there is no logical way to predict whether there is a last or not. To claim a link between the two ends of the string is, to my mind, pure fantasy, wishful thinking. This objection is not a religious statement - but a purely aetiological one.
Best regards, Avi

Something about you (optional) logician-philosopher

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Hi Avi,


God, as we conceive Him, is Eternal - in past, present and future. Something eternal has no beginning and no end, and therefore can neither be created nor destroyed. Therefore, it is useless to look for an efficient cause of God.

The question is open - there is no axiom capable of proving definitively that the world is temporally finite. It is the job of scientists to deal with this question, and of course their opinions do vary over time.


Those comments aren't relevant to Aquinas' argument.


As far as I can tell, he is saying that a chain of causation that is eternal in the past is necessarily without end in the future. Right?


No, he is saying that an essentially ordered causal series cannot be infinite.


Your interpretation "if each cause in the series is instrumental (dependent), then there MUST be a first which is non-dependent, and without which, there is no last." - is even worse. Of course the middle causes in a causative chain are "dependent" by definition, having been caused. It does not follow that such a chain must have a first cause (non-dependent) - for an infinite chain would also in its middle have dependent causes, yet not a non-dependent first cause. And whether there is a first or not, there is no logical way to predict whether there is a last or not.


I think the difficulty is in explaining what Aquinas means by an "essentially ordered" causal series. It has nothing to do with time or whether the universe is temporally finite, but has to do with the cause of anything existing HERE and NOW.

If you have time, read this paper because it explains what Aquinas means better than I ever could.

There Must be a First : Why Thomas Aquinas Rejects Infinite, Essentially Ordered, Causal Series

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Hi Joe, thanks for the interesting link.
However, I cannot agree with this:

"Several of Thomas Aquinas’s proofs for the existence of God rely on the claim that causal series cannot proceed in infinitum. I argue that Aquinas has good reason to hold this claim given his conception of causation. Because he holds that effects are ontologically dependent on their causes he holds that the relevant causal series are wholly derivative: the later members of such series serve as causes only insofar as they have been caused by and are effects of earlier members. Because the intermediate causes in such series possess causal powers only by deriving them from all the preceding causes, they need a first and non-derivative cause to serve as the source of their causal powers."

...for the simple reason that it is pure fiction. How could Aquinas possibly formally prove such an extravagant claim to a sort of cumulative causation, where an effect cannot be a further cause unless it is tied to the particular series of causes it came from? Just to define formally such a complex causal chain is an impossible task, let alone proving that this is the form of causation which applies to the universe. When the author says "effects are ontologically dependent on their causes" he gives the impression of saying something new - but it means nothing - all natural causation implies "ontological dependence" even if not cumulative as here described.

Furthermore, this scenario seems self-contradictory to me. Remember, there is a distinction between partial and complete causation, and between necessary and contingent causation. If we have a chain of complete and necessary causes, and we say that a middle link in the chain cannot proceed except through the given preceding set of links, we are actually saying that the complete-necessary link under scrutiny is in fact NOT really complete and necessary, but only illusory so! That is, while C seems to be sufficient to cause E at first sight, it turns out that C is only partially sufficient - all precedents of C in the case at hand must also be present! Similarly for the negative side (necessity-contingency).

No. It is clear that Aquinas, if that is really the tenor of his theory of causation, is just doing a complex "tailoring" job - trying to fix a desired conclusion by giving the false impression that there is a complex basis for it, without regard to FORMAL issues involved.

Joe, there are four conceivable possibilities, logically. A causal chain is infinite at both ends; or it is infinite to start but finite at the end; of it is finite to start but infinite at the end; or it is finite at both ends. Logically, all four conceivable possibilities are indeed actually possible. There is no FORMALLY PROVEN BASIS for rejecting any of these four options - they involve no self-contradiction.

The 4 causal relations defined by me (the specific determinations) are an exhaustive list of formal possibilities; they cannot be overcome by piling up or any other means. And these 4 formal possibilities contain no formal power, as far as I can see, to reject any of the above mentioned 4 conceivable possibilities of causative chaining. Only empirical findings can ultimately determine, therefore, what the actual situation of the universe is (wholly infinite, or partly or wholly finite).

Of course I do not, therefore, agree with your objection that "Those comments aren't relevant to Aquinas' argument." As regards your statement: "No, he is saying that an essentially ordered causal series cannot be infinite." - I would reiterate that Aquinas is trying to prove that the empirically evident world is finite and caused by God, and doing so by imaginary arguments.

Regards, Avi

Something about you (optional) logician-philosopher

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Hi Avi,


No. It is clear that Aquinas, if that is really the tenor of his theory of causation, is just doing a complex "tailoring" job - trying to fix a desired conclusion by giving the false impression that there is a complex basis for it, without regard to FORMAL issues involved.


On reflection, I have to agree with you. Having read some of LC, it's obvious that Aquinas' treatment of causality is hopelessly superficial and naive. I don't know whether he had addressed any of the formal issues you mention, but Ed Feser certainly doesn't mention them in his book "Five Proofs". All he does there is to talk about the difference between "hierarchical" and "linear" causes, but this is pretty vague, not even at the level of detail of Mill's methods, and there isn't even any distinction made between necessary and sufficient causes. For an argument which hinges on the idea of "cause", it's strange that he gives no definition of what a cause actually is (although this is notoriously hard to define), other than "that which actualizes a potential". Again, pretty vague.

To be fair to Aquinas, though, he never intended the arguments to be formal proofs, which is why he called them "ways". Although I find Scholasticism kind of appealing in that it is an impressive and tightly knit complete system of thought about the world, God, the soul, etc which is internally consistent, whether it corresponds to reality is another thing altogether. It's certainly a remarkable achievement, but is it true? I doubt it.

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Joe, nice to read your conclusions to this discussion. Your remarks are all pertinent. Shows your open-mindedness and objectivity. This has been for me too a learning experience.

As regards Feser's "hierarchical and linear causes", which you also hinted to in a previous post saying "I think the difficulty is in explaining what Aquinas means by an "essentially ordered" causal series. It has nothing to do with time or whether the universe is temporally finite, but has to do with the cause of anything existing HERE and NOW." - I believe this refers to an apparent difference between vertical and horizontal causality by God. The vertical mode is timeless, hierarchical - the horizontal mode is temporal, linear. In Aristotelian aetiology, and presumably in Aquinas, this would be the distinction between formal and efficient causality.

Within my framework, this distinction is one of type or mode of modality. The vertical mode refers to the static logical or extensional modalities, whereas the horizontal mode refers to the dynamic natural or temporal modalities. Note that my definitions of causation are applicable to all modes - and should not be exclusively associated with the natural or temporal modes, i.e. efficient causation. There's no mention in these general definitions of time, thus allowing for the cause and effect to be simultaneously or timelessly related in some cases.

And of course, in any discussion of causality - and in particular of the causality of the universe by God - one should never fail to consider Volition, i.e. freewill, available in varying degrees to God, mankind and animals. Another oft-forgotten item is natural spontaneity, which modern physics claims for subatomic quantum phenomena. So any idea of a purely deterministic universe or of a purely causative chain of creation is far from evident.

Best, Avi

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Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Joe, just to clarify something I said earlier in response to the claim attributed (rightly or wrongly) to Aquinas that "the later members of such series serve as causes only insofar as they have been caused by and are effects of earlier members."

If you go to chapt. 6 of The Logic of Causation, the first listed valid mood of causative syllogism is:

Q is a complete and necessary cause of R;
P is a complete and necessary cause of Q;
so, P is a complete and necessary cause of R.

This informs us that the complete-necessary cause (P) of a complete-necessary cause (Q) of some effect (here R) is itself a complete-necessary cause of it. This means that no matter how far you go in a chain of strong causation, every earlier cause is as much a strong cause as the later ones, ad infinitum.

So, this is true of all strong causative chains - it is nothing special. What the above statement claims is that somehow each earlier cause additionally plays a part in the effect; i.e. P is not only a necessary-complete cause of Q and thus of R, but additionally it is a partial and perhaps contingent cause of Q and then of R! This is the contradiction I pointed out earlier. Stated in such more formal terms, its absurdity is evident for all to see.

Cheers, Avi

Something about you (optional) logician-philosopher

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Hi Avi,

Thanks for pointing this out and giving the location in LC. It does indeed clarify the contradiction you mentioned, which I was not able to see at the time. Unfortunately, for those don't see this problem with Aquinas' argument, they're not going to understand why there is a contradiction unless they've read your book, which is not a trivial task.

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

A very interesting series of posts! Thanks to all who contributed, I learned a lot.

By the way, here is a thought-provoking and entertaining short video on "The Evil God Challenge" posed by philosopher Stephen Law --

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nUnYsBwB5k

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Hi MDB. I watched the video. Interesting, valid arguments. But I think that anyway it is impossible to prove (or disprove) God's existence (good or bad) by any argument or experience; this is a matter of faith, so long as compatible with reason.

For me, the basis of such faith is that we humans (and to lesser degrees animals) have consciousness (cognitive powers: perceptual, intuitive, conceptual), volition (free will) and valuations (which influence our choices). These undeniable faculties (which are related to each other) are inexplicable by means of material laws - scientists (so far at least) have found no mathematical formulae that make possible prediction of mind, spirit from that of matter.

In truth, most scientists are not even aware that they need to explain the existence of mind and spirit in relation to matter, if they want to claim to understand the world before us. They just naïvely take it for granted, i.e. they do not realize the magnitude of the problem it poses for science.

For me, this domain called spirit (comprising mental experiences, and consciousness/volition/valuation - which are powers of all soul/spirits like us) can so far be studied phenomenologically, i.e. by careful observation and abstraction. Although we humans and animals are materially scattered, we have these spiritual aspects of our existence in common (to various degrees). Is our spirituality also scattered, or is it one?

The idea of God, it seems to me, is the unifying factor of these scattered souls. Spirit is One; we are all sparks of God's spiritual nature - so teach mystics, and I find this a reasonable thesis. It would be much more difficult to suppose that souls are without ultimate unity. Therefore, having unity, we can suppose a large parallel domain of spirituality, which evidently somehow intersects with the material domain in us all.

Note well that some such thesis is necessary. One cannot just dismiss the need for a thesis about spirituality, and view the world as purely material. This would be in contradiction to our experience.

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Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Hi Avi,


In truth, most scientists are not even aware that they need to explain the existence of mind and spirit in relation to matter, if they want to claim to understand the world before us. They just naïvely take it for granted, i.e. they do not realize the magnitude of the problem it poses for science.


I agree. Anyone who takes materialism to be a serious philosophical position just hasn't thought it though because it's basically self-refuting. Ironically, science itself shows that it must be false, for all kinds of reasons.



Although we humans and animals are materially scattered, we have these spiritual aspects of our existence in common (to various degrees). Is our spirituality also scattered, or is it one?

The idea of God, it seems to me, is the unifying factor of these scattered souls. Spirit is One; we are all sparks of God's spiritual nature - so teach mystics, and I find this a reasonable thesis.


Me too. As a regular meditator, I sometimes find myself in the so called "witness position", which is characterised by a recognition that I am not merely a bundle of transient thoughts, emotions and sensations, but that which is aware of them. So what is that which is aware? whatever it is, it seems intuitively obvious that there is no difference between it "in me", and in other otherwise separated individuals. Of course, I have no access to others' experience, and intuition can be misleading, but it's a powerful experience nevertheless, although somewhat fleeting and hard to maintain.

Regarding the Cosmological argument discussed in this thread, I still think it's a pretty good argument, even though it's not formally (deductively) valid. I'm reminded of the Asian mythological view -

A Western traveler encountering an Oriental philosopher asks him to describe the nature of the world: “It is a great ball resting on the flat back of the world turtle.” “Ah yes, but what does the world turtle stand on?” “On the back of a still larger turtle.” “Yes, but what does he stand on?” “A very perceptive question. But it’s no use, mister; it’s turtles all the way down.”

As far as I'm aware, infinity is a mathematical construct with no actual instances in nature, and the fact that we all find the "turtles" example an absurdity surely counts for something. While it's true that there is no logical contradiction in saying that it's possible for a series of causes to regress infinitely, how likely is it, given that there are no infinities in the natural world? After all, you yourself emphasise that there is no firm dividing line between deduction and induction, and since we haven't observed any infinities, aren't we justified in ruling them out, at least as a working hypothesis?


Joe, there are four conceivable possibilities, logically. A causal chain is infinite at both ends; or it is infinite to start but finite at the end; of it is finite to start but infinite at the end; or it is finite at both ends. Logically, all four conceivable possibilities are indeed actually possible. There is no FORMALLY PROVEN BASIS for rejecting any of these four options - they involve no self-contradiction.


They may all be possible, but I think there's a tendency to conflate "possible" with "probable". I mean, it's possible that Manchester United will contact me today offering me a position of striker in their team, even though I'm 58 years old, haven't played football since I was at school, and have no interest in the game. :smile:

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Hi MDB. Interested to learn that you are a regular meditator. So am I. We seem to agree on the issue of spiritual unity. I think that you would be interested to read my latest reflections on this issue, which were revelatory for me, in the essay: The Five Skandhas Doctrine. Be sure to read both webpages shown below.
http://avisionbuddhism.bravesites.com/entries/skandhas/16-the-five-skandhas-doctrine
http://avisionbuddhism.bravesites.com/entries/general/17-the-five-skandhas-doctrine-contd

Regarding infinite regression, an argument that accepts infinity (like the turtle example) is very weak and unconvincing. With regard to God, specifically, I stated long ago, in my book Judaic Logic, that positing God as explanation of the (material) world is no solution to the existence of the world, since the idea of God is an even more complex idea than that of the experienced world (since it implies God creating it) and therefore requires even more explanation.

I think the intellectual search for God is to be carried out rather by means of reference to our spirituality, which is not explicable from a materialistic perspective, as already mentioned in my previous post.

Best regards, Avi

Something about you (optional) logician-philosopher

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Avi,

Thanks for the links. I have bookmarked them and will read later and comment in a new thread. I must say, you've produced an impressive body of work. I can't imagine what a labour this was for you. I'm retiring in a year or so and am looking forward to doing a lot more reading. Can I ask, was your first book Future Logic part of your PhD thesis? I have embarked on it and am finding it very interesting, although some terms are unfamiliar to me, even though I've been interested in logic for some years.


With regard to God, specifically, I stated long ago, in my book Judaic Logic, that positing God as explanation of the (material) world is no solution to the existence of the world, since the idea of God is an even more complex idea than that of the experienced world (since it implies God creating it) and therefore requires even more explanation.


Yes, although it depends on your conception of God. Classical theism (which I find quite appealing and plausible) gets around this problem by the doctrine of divine simplicity.

Cheers,
Mike

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

What do you make of Ryan Mullins and William Lane Craig's arguments against divine simplicity?
Namely, their modal collapse arguments?

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Hi Mike.

The existence of existence, the existence of anything whatever, begs the question ‘how come?’ (what caused it?), and even the question ‘Why?’ (for what purpose?). If there was no existence, if nothing whatever existed, there would be nothing surprising in the fact. (Of course, for any question to arise, there has to be someone aware of existence and able to ask the question; if existence existed but there was no one to see that, there would be no question asked.)

The idea of God is an attempt to answer that question (indeed, both those questions). But this answer is logically inadequate in that it involves a claim to the pre-existence of God, i.e. to an existence which in turn calls forth the same question(s), bringing us back full circle. On the other hand, assuming the atheist alternative does not erase the question, the wonder at the existence of existence – so, it does not solve the problem either.

Once we posit God, we are forced to turn our attention to the nature of God, and discuss his unique Oneness despite presumed multiple attributes needed to explain His thoughts and actions. I think the answer to that is largely to found in the idea (expressed at the conclusion my essay The Five Skandhas Doctrine) that the spiritual domain is radically different from the material domain, without substance, space and time, or any other analogical features. This realization comes from the awareness that all our discussions of spirituality proceed by means of analogies from our material experience: the concepts we resort to are materially biased and therefore inevitably distort the ultimate reality somewhat.

The discussions of Classical Theism and Divine Simplicity that you mention are, of course, all relevant and interesting. And yes, Future Logic was my doctoral dissertation (feel free to write me by e-mail if you need some clarification while reading it).

Something about you (optional) logician-philosopher

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Hi Wally.

The idea of God as being subject to necessity rather than freewill is an old one found in Greek and later in Arab/Muslim thinking. But if we conceive and understand God as spiritual, in the same sense that we are spiritual, i.e. having consciousness, volition and valuation, but these taken to extremes (omniscience, omnipotence, all-good), there is no doubt that He cannot be viewed as subject to blind natural necessity, like an automaton, but must be viewed as a supremely conscious, freely willing and good being. It is only in the latter way that our conception of God can be useful to us in formulating metaphysical, historical or ethical ideas and explanations.

See my book Volition and Allied Causal Concepts (at least chapters 1 and 2) on this subject. http://thelogician.net/VOLITION-and-ALLIED-CAUSAL-CONCEPTS/Cover-page.htm.

Something about you (optional) logician-philosopher

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Avi Sion
Hi Mike.

The existence of existence, the existence of anything whatever, begs the question ‘how come?’ (what caused it?), and even the question ‘Why?’ (for what purpose?). If there was no existence, if nothing whatever existed, there would be nothing surprising in the fact. (Of course, for any question to arise, there has to be someone aware of existence and able to ask the question; if existence existed but there was no one to see that, there would be no question asked.)

The idea of God is an attempt to answer that question (indeed, both those questions). But this answer is logically inadequate in that it involves a claim to the pre-existence of God, i.e. to an existence which in turn calls forth the same question(s), bringing us back full circle. On the other hand, assuming the atheist alternative does not erase the question, the wonder at the existence of existence – so, it does not solve the problem either.

Once we posit God, we are forced to turn our attention to the nature of God, and discuss his unique Oneness despite presumed multiple attributes needed to explain His thoughts and actions. I think the answer to that is largely to found in the idea (expressed at the conclusion my essay The Five Skandhas Doctrine) that the spiritual domain is radically different from the material domain, without substance, space and time, or any other analogical features. This realization comes from the awareness that all our discussions of spirituality proceed by means of analogies from our material experience: the concepts we resort to are materially biased and therefore inevitably distort the ultimate reality somewhat.

The discussions of Classical Theism and Divine Simplicity that you mention are, of course, all relevant and interesting. And yes, Future Logic was my doctoral dissertation (feel free to write me by e-mail if you need some clarification while reading it).


And yes, Future Logic was my doctoral dissertation (feel free to write me by e-mail if you need some clarification while reading it).


Thanks Avi. If it's all the same to you, if I have need of clarification regarding the book I will post here. I see there is already a thread in the Logic section devoted to the topic. That way, others who have queries may find the answers there.

Re: The Cosmological Argument for God.

Good idea. No problem.

Something about you (optional) logician-philosopher