Recent occurrences of aggressive and nasty postings display a schoolyard bully mentality that certainly has no business on this forum. It further illustrates another situation which seems to be a recurring theme.
It is an unfortunate fact of life that you are judged by the company you keep. Haven't we all, at some point, been cautioned to avoid running with a certain crowd unless we wanted to be stigmatized by the same reputation?
If you want the reputable and long-standing pillars of the breed to welcome, support, advise, and encourage you, etc., be careful of the choices you make. A previous poster cited the fact that she already had certain "mentors" who she respected, but felt that she was being given less of a welcome in the Labrador community because of problems her "mentors" might have had in the past with others.
In a hypothetical situation, consider this: Your mentors were once in the "newbie" position where you currently find yourself. The aforementioned pillars of the breed may very well have welcomed these newcomers and generously offered encouragement, advice, support, etc. In some instances this generous behavior may have been rewarded in the most despicable ways imaginable. Why then, would anyone want to expose themselves to additional abuse by those who might be labeled as "respected mentors."
No one should be faulted for being careful while walking through a snake pit.
Fortunately, this does not happen every time a new person seeks advice, etc. But once it has happened, don't blame the victims for being cautious about exposing thier backs to these treacherous people once again.

Not in anyway critical of what you wrote...just an add-on.

Not every newbie will know the reputation of a mentor, whether it be good, bad, or indifferent. wouldn't it be great if people would limit if not altogether avoid talking about other folks' dirty laundry on the forum as doing so may expose a little of their own laundry.

As many posters have said for one reason or another, it would be nice if folks felt they could safely or freely post an email address. That way if someone really felt compelled to offer their opinion or share what they 'believe to be reliable information about someone's mentor or someone's questionable 'practice' related to Labs, it would protect the forum from being a place for name calling and sour grapes.

"The aforementioned pillars of the breed may very well have welcomed these newcomers and generously offered encouragement, advice, support, etc."


I feel like I need to give my input on this statement, and although my next statement may not always be the case, it is a very widespread problem and has turned many newbies with the right intentions in the wrong direction.

It has been my own exprience when starting out 13 years ago and the also the exprience of others who were once new in the breed that I know, know of or have posted on this forum, that many of the long time breeders, pillars of the community, etc., are not always so welcoming to the newbie. Many, not saying all, but many of these long time breeders are nothing short of nasty to a new person trying to get into the breed, trying to things right and learn about the worlds of showing/breeding Labradors. They have been critical instead of helpful, intimidating instead of welcoming, bullying istead of gently coaching and closed their doors to the opportunity to mentor and instead, scared away many who would have otherwise been open to mentoring.
Although these tactics did not work on me, I pulled myself up and continued my search for a mentor and finally found one who was generous enough to entrust me with a very nice bitch. I do know of many who these tactics have worked on. These people ended up becoming what the long time, reputable breeders did not want them to in the first place, BYBs.
And why, because they love the breed and wanted to do this, but were totally turned off by the dispicable behavior of the bullying long time breeders whom they tried to make a connection with in the first place. They were so turned off, they said, screw showing if thats what kind of people show their dogs! They did not want to be any part of that circle, but still love the breed and desired to be in it.
So here they are, no mentor, no decent dogs, no knowledge of how to go about it correctly.
They start with poor quality dogs because no one reputable would give them a chance. They breed these dogs and make more poor specimins of breed. They learn about health clearences on their own and may or may not do them. Why? Because no one took the time to BE NICE and guide them!
The bullys thought they could keep them out of the breed but what did they really acomplish, exactly the opposite!
So I guess my point is, lighten up and give newbies a chance. You're not going to stop them but you may be able to stop them from making some bad decisions!!

I have to say Breeder II that, sadly, I think you are right.

It is such a shame.

I love this breed so much that I am willing to educate anyone.

I am constantly educating my buyers just regarding raising their pups in the best possible, healthiest way and it never is a burden to me.

Taking the time to mentor a potential future breeder is without a doubt "giving back to the breed" in the most positive way. By protecting it!

It CAN be true but doesn't HAVE to be. Mentoring isn't something that's limited to any one thing. I've learned that by being on either side of the mentoring fence in my professional life that pays the bills & my hobbies (dogs/horses). However, I've also learned that mentoring doesn't mean "do it my way or the highway" since that usually makes the other person RUN the other way and do the exact opposite. When ASKED for my opinion, I'll give it but it's just that - my opinion and you can take it or leave it - no hard feelings. When I ASK for someone's opinion, it's the same - nothing more or less. Learning to agree to disagree and have constructive discussions without there having to be a "winner" is invaluable and saves lots of wasted time & effort in the long run.

Here's my sad tale:
A year ago I lost the last of my dad's labs - his lab breeding that he spent his entire life developing. So I spent 2 months and a fortune calling and looking on the net for a show quality lab. I was shocked and appalled at what I found out there. Most BYB out there didn't have a clue as to what I meant when I asked about OFA clearances, Elbows, Cerf etc. Forget the standard - these dogs bore little resemblance to labs. Sad. When I called the "Hot" breeders -once I figured out how to find them - many (not all) either wouldn't give me the time of day, wouldn't return my phone calls, emails, or were very abrupt when saying they only sold to their friends.I expected more professionalism or at least courtesy. A nice refusal is fine.

Now I am a show home. I understand that they don't KNOW me and want to screen heavily where their nice show puppies go. I would do the same - but outright rudeness is unnecessary. I finally found a very sweet breeder who sent me in the right direction and I got my show puppy. It was bulldogged determination on my part that got me connected to her and thank goodness for her willingness to talk to me. I understand it takes a while to build connections and relationships with people. I understand trust takes time. I understand being opinionated. I also understand how frustrated these other people might feel who know nothing about labs and want to get into the breed. I understand how they might feel if they come up against what I did.

I think we must be embassadors for a wonderful breed and as such must comport ourselves as wonderfully as our dogs do. And thank you for the forum and for being there for the newbies who ask for help or have puzzling questions. And thank you for the nice people at the shows who help the beginners. And the folks who cheer no matter who wins - Yeah!
Anyway that's how I feel...please don't hit/flame me.
Thanks,
Alexandra

I must be riding a lucky wave and hanging with a good crowd (okay there's only two of us) - we're hill high desert folk - Idaho & Nevada.

But I have to thank many of the pillars of the breed - because - when I show up they are nothing nice.

I did get barked at once by an old woman who stopped me right as I was about to hand-stack my bitch - it had a nasty tone - but I think she meant well. It was just her way. I brushed it off - from her angle outside the ring - maybe she could see something I couldn't.

But more so than not - the oldies are helping me out alot, coaching me and making me feel welcome! Thanks guys and gals - you know who you all are.
Valerie

Yup, it's sad but it happens to more than a few.
Glad you hung in there and took the higher road, even if it was discouraging along the path!
I've been there and I know how it feels.
It's a shame that some of these "pillars" in the Lab community feel the need to stick their noses in the air just because someone wants to get started. Don't they know the new people are tomorrows oldies???
It seems like they think they will be around forever and are not willing to share their knowledge (is for fear of competition?), their mentorship, their pedigrees....
I think there is nothing wrong with allowing a newbie with the right frame of mind to have a nice bitch or dog to start with. I always offer a co ownership and they are usually (not always, but thats how you weed out the ill intended ones) very happy that someone will help them out. I normally get thanked to death because of all they have already been through trying!
I guess though, as in any walk of life, some people are just plain mean and selfish.

I must be one of the lucky ones then too. I feel as though I've been welcomed with open arms to the Labrador community by folks who've been around a while. I'll share this story, one that makes me smile each time I think of it.

At my first specialty (Piedmont) several years ago now, I was hooked up with a friend of a woman I was getting to know from my local club. The friend agreed to show my puppy bitch for me since I was an even poorer handler then as I am now. She also stood ringside with me for quite a while, helping me learn while we watched the judging. When I gave her the small thank-you gift I had purchased for her she explained, "There is no need to thank me this way. It is my pleasure to help you- people like you are the future of Labradors".

Unfortunately, this is very true. I've owned my 2 Labs for 11 years--since they were puppies--and had gotten them from responsible breeders with good reputations. Five years ago, I decided I wanted to find a show quality puppy. I encountered so many nasty old-timers along the way, that I ended up giving up. Although, I did meet several very nice breeders, they were hundreds of miles away, making mentoring a bit difficult. The nasty ones far outweighed the nice. I decided to find another hobby, and just keep admiring from afar.

Too bad, seems that in your case, the old hags won.

I hear what you are saying, but, you need to take it upon yourselves to read books, watch good handlers in action, go to handling classes and whatever it takes to learn from your own experiences how this little thing is done. When you buy a stove you are supposed to know how to cook or read a cook book. When you buy a car, you better be able to drive it. It is hard to get a breeder to place her pick puppy with a new person, but a second pick or other would be a good start. Then what you do is to improve upon what you have and that way you build your own line from a nice pedigree that the "other than first pick" has. It seems that a lot of people who want to get into the race want to get in the ring and win. Everyone wants to start at the top and that just ain't life. To get a puppy, buy the lovely outfits, go to the nice hotels and show the puppy and hope to get winners bitch or dog just is just spitting in the wind. I know how people are brought up these days, They go to soccer and want to win. want to be a CEO right out of school and maybe even go on to be President of the US Time to take a look at what is REAL Ellie

I am my way now to the Back Mountain show and we damned sure better win or sombody is picking on us. I will be so stressed if we don't win that I will write on this forum how every body there treated be badly. Now on to the show and I will tell you the horrors that we encounter when we come with not even a lousey ribbon. People are so nasty to us. WAAAAAAAAAAAA Ellie

I am so worried about maybe not winning that I made many misspelled words I am so sorry ellie

You are too funny Ellie! Love it!

My mentor is actually in another breed. I think you just need to find a show buddy that has the same beliefs as you. Not having to be the same breed. Mine is in a small breed. We get to enjoy each others dogs. I did try to follow a Lab lady who had been in the breed for over 20 years. She cut corners and as far as I could see the dogs and the puppy buyers were the only ones that were suffering. She seemed to sleep well at night no matter what the call was about from a concerned buyer. Her way of raising her dogs was just not for me. I did not want to be known as an associate of hers so gently backed away. Best decision I ever made.

I never once expected to win right out of the gate but the point was that new people are hard pressed to find a good breeder to give them a chance at all.
I have found and heard that the answers they get are all "I don't sell on full reg to a person who isnt established. The doors are all shut.
I am not in this predicement anymore myself, I was able to open a door with one very generous breeder whose name in turn opened other doors for me.
My point was that that "one" nice breeder is HARD to find and a lot of people, if not most get totally turned off before it happens.

See you in Bloomsburg Ellie! Hahhhaa I don't have to leave until much later... just 5 miles from my house!
BTW, we are in the Arts & Crafts building for Ring 5.

I hope everyone understood that I didn't hope to win first time out with my first "show" puppy, nor did I hope to have a resounding welcome into the lab community. I just thought that a polite refusal from a "big" breeder is more "politic." I have been around labs all my life, dabbled in other breeds for a while and finally decided after my dad died to get back into labs in a very serious way.

I was shocked at the vast differences between some BY dogs being bred and the dogs you breeders have...it says something about the community - I am not sure what(NO JUDGEMENT HERE JUST OBSERVATION)...More education? More outreach? You can't force people to go to shows if they don't know about them or have already been turned off...I feel I have been through the gauntlet recently ...I have seen the ads and been to the kennels and yards out there...I was lucky. Because of my dad I knew what I wanted and wouldn't settle...and didn't. You all seem so nice and reasonable and ambassadors for the wonderful breed we have. Not like the breeders I talked to. I guess Outreach is what I think might be the answer. Maybe the outreach IS there and I missed that also? All I can do is do my best.
A

Yes, but how many of these new people already HAVE a purebred, maybe not the best, but a registered dog that they have done nothing with? Of course it always has "issues" but still...I have taken dogs with "issues" in the ring and done well, at 14 years old. Would it not be a lot easier to sell a show prospect to someone who already had proven themselves with a CD, CGC, & RN? It's not a hobby like woodworking and gardening where you can just stop whenever you feel like it without hurting someone else's feelings or ruining someone else's chance on the perfect garden or prettiest porch railing.

I see a lot of newbies that have never done anything, get a nice enough dog, and don't know what to do with it, and then cry foul the instant their dog does poorly. Expect a judge to look past a dog that won't even stand still or gait properly and a handler that doesn't have a clue what to do in the ring. Wonder why they can't get nice puppies out of it (hint--no one ELSE got nice puppies when they crossed this line with that line either). Wonder where the TVD or PRA or bad bites or missing teeth or whatever-the-heck came from when if they'd spent an extra 2 years looking for that bitch they'd know, instead of jumping on the first show breeder that was willing to give them a "chance." And of course cry foul because the breeder didn't disclose reasonably well-known information.

I am probably considered a newbie by many, but I've been in dogs for 13 years. I've seen a lot of temper tantrums from people old enough to know better and chewed out a lot of kids who needed a lesson in sportsmanship & manners & patience. I can't blame the well-established breeders for ignoring phone calls--can you imagine how many phone calls the top breeders GET a week for a "show quality" puppy, and how many of those are actually good show homes? I'd be interested to see if someone with multiple generations of specialty-winning dogs would post about how many of their "show home" phone calls actually pan out.

Honestly ---I was supposed to know there was TVD in the line when I bought my bitch? Not trying to be "smart" here but I don't know how I would know that or that "crossing" her with certain lines would produce that or other problems. I'm serious here. Is there some way I could have researched this?

WOW...thats a poor attitude!
It's no wonder some of these people turn to just "breeding their dogs" when you listen to what people with your attitude have to say!
Sheesh...
Talk about judging a book by it's cover...

Not really if you weren't "allowed" into the show click in the first place and maybe not even then!
It's well known that ALL breeders hide certain things here and there and those things only get disclosed when numerous people have gotten the products, and then talked about them.
I know a few well known breeders and I know their dirt because they are my friends. But ask me what the dirt is, sorry, not gonna tell ya because it's not place to. Thats how friendships are ruined.

What I am saying is that many newbies do not have the patience to determine what it is they REALLY want before they buy that first bitch or show dog...

They decide in March that they want to show dogs (they just watched Westminster, remember ;) and within a year they have their first puppy in the ring, that they bought. Within three years of deciding to show, they have a litter on the ground...(this is not about anyone in particular nor is it particular to our breed)

How can you possibly, in that time, become such a pillar of the Lab community that you know even most of it's secrets and skeletons? How can you be TRUSTED by those that have kept these secrets, trusted enough to be told? How can you know anyone or anyone well enough to know who is just spreading baseless rumors and who is telling you the truth? I am not saying that these things SHOULD be secrets, but not everyone is strong enough to turn and face their peers and say "This is wrong," or "I made a mistake," or "I failed my dogs--I have produced this." It was like admitting a weakness in high school, sometimes there are people that never let go of that petty anger and viciousness, and there are too many people in this world that are not strong enough to stand up to it. Look at the numbers of women that allow their husbands or boyfriends to hit them. Not everyone is strong enough to stand alone against those that will try to exploit them.

When you buy a bitch to breed from, doesn't it make sense to know as much as possible about the line BEFORE you buy it? Yes, occasionally problems pop up out of absolutely nowhere. But most of them can be traced. Sometimes it takes work, but the information is out there.

Yes there is of course a way to research it! But you can't do all the necessary research in 6 months. It's like learning to build a car from scratch in 6 months. You can do it, but you'll probably have to fix it quite a bit afterwards. Why would you want to build the foundation in 6 months? How much harder would it be to wait an extra year and then see where you are?

How can you evaluate your 18 month old puppy when you've not been in the breed long enough to have seen one mature?

All I am saying is that there aren't newbies with the patience to LEARN...and then they get into something that they maybe wouldn't have, if they'd taken a few extra months or a year to think harder about what they wanted.

*shrug*

I don't know what about that is a "poor attitude" but just what I have seen...

No one sees a problem with drawing a line with pet owners, why is it different for someone looking for a show prospect?

We have expectations we require of people wanting a PET puppy, why is it not OK to have at least *equal* expectations of someone looking for a breeding puppy?

I can't imagine selling someone a puppy on full registration, even on a co-own, if they hadn't already proven they were capable of committing to the hobby for the long-term.

So you serously think that someone needs to go and buy a pet to prove they are committed to the breed?
So they buy a pet on limited, they get some titles in obed, hunt whatever, ok fine but what are they to do with this pet when you, the great God of Labradors decides they are now "good enough" to co own a dog with you?
Should they wait 15 years for their next one? What if they just want ONE dog? Thats an aweful long time to wait to get a "good" dog.
I dunno, to me, a limited registration on a "decent" but not "pick" puppy is the way to go with these people. Then if they prove they are committed by the time it's two, GREAT, now a co own is in order with full reg.
I mean you can't just give them a pet to start with, thats not fair to them if they DO prove themselves with this dog. And if you are telling me you have so many show homes that you afford to spare a decent dog on a newbie, you're lying.
You know as well as I do, that 2nd or even 3rd pick pup would have gone as someone elses pet anyway.
So why not take a chance?
What do you have to lose on a limited with a promise to re evaluate later??
At least they would have decent dog either way, and if they totally screw up, so what, it would have went to a pet home anyway!

I do agree, sort of. But you have to remember, in this world, most of our knowledge comes from experience, yes doing it the hard way.
It sucks that dogs may have to suffer but thats where the mentorship and the opening of doors SHOULD come in!
If the doors were open, it would be less likely tragic mistakes happen.
I'm not saying that all secrets need to be revealed to everyone that has a passing interest in mating 2 dogs, of course not.
What I AM saying is that if you can take someone under your wing, and you see them about to make a huge mistake, you're now in a position to TELL THEM!!
I mean hey, you don't have to give them your notes, but if they say, "I'm thinking of buying this or using that on this..." and you see red flags, you can say "HEY, WAIT! That line produced seizures and so did that one, so putting them together, not such a good idea."
There, you just saved a whole lot of people a lot of heartbreak. And all you had to do was open your doors!!

"So you serously think that someone needs to go and buy a pet to prove they are committed to the breed? "

I've never heard of ANYONE who went from not having a dog at all to having a breeding dog.

"So they buy a pet on limited, they get some titles in obed, hunt whatever, ok fine but what are they to do with this pet when you, the great God of Labradors decides they are now "good enough" to co own a dog with you?
Should they wait 15 years for their next one? What if they just want ONE dog? Thats an aweful long time to wait to get a "good" dog."

Well I don't consider myself the great God of Labradors. Considering about 100,000 Labs are registered in the US alone each year, I don't think they're particularly slim pickings as far as breeders go. If all they want is one dog, to show, nothing else, those generally aren't as difficult to find as a foundation bitch or breeding dog.

All I did was contact a local breeder, who put me in touch with an even more local breeder, said, "Hey, can I show one of your dogs for you? I don't have one and want to."

"
What do you have to lose on a limited with a promise to re evaluate later?? "

I guess it depends on the person on the other end of the co-own, but it is definitely NOT unheard of for the new owner to flip out if the breeder does not rescind the limited status.

"I don't think they're particularly slim pickings as far as breeders go. If all they want is one dog, to show, nothing else, those generally aren't as difficult to find as a foundation bitch or breeding dog."

Isn't it one in the same? I mean in order to show a dog, it must be good quality AND have a full registration to be eligible. This is the hard thing about it, no one wants to give up that good dog or that full registration, no matter what the terms.

"I guess it depends on the person on the other end of the co-own, but it is definitely NOT unheard of for the new owner to flip out if the breeder does not rescind the limited status."

I totally agree BUT thats just TOO BAD FOR THEM as long as the breeder is reasonable in the decision.
Thats what signed contracts are for.

Breeder II thank you. I don't understand this talk of doing research. To me research is reading books, newspapers, researching in the library (showing my age now) and on line. In dogs is "research" seems to mean making friends with people so they will tell you their dark secrets or listening in at shows to conversations that are none of your business? I think research is too nice of a word for this.

I have no answer. But I do agree that it wouldn't hurt to tell a new person that that breeding they are considering might cause a lot of heart ache.

"Isn't it one in the same? I mean in order to show a dog, it must be good quality AND have a full registration to be eligible. This is the hard thing about it, no one wants to give up that good dog or that full registration, no matter what the terms."

No...the difference is the contract. If you are buying a dog just to show, you don't really care what's in the contract as far as breeding the dog, a breeder's veto on a breeding, who gets the stud fees (if any), and you are usually buying a male so no discussion on who gets puppies back.

If I am buying a bitch to breed, I am very concerned with things like puppies back, breeder's right to veto, breeder's right to however many litters, who's responsible if she needs a c-section, who's responsible for getting her bred, etc.

I have two dogs here right now that I show or hope to show. My male, I wouldn't have cared who got the stud fees (50/50), nor do I care if she wants to veto his being bred to an outside bitch, nor do I care if she wants to be able to veto him being bred at all, because I didn't buy him to breed. I bought him because I didn't WANT a bitch in season.

My girl, I got her from the same person, so it's basically a no-strings-attached as we're very close friends. But if we weren't, if I was buying her from someone I barely knew (instead of from someone whose house is my refuge from the world), it would be totally different. I would be very concerned with litters & puppies back. I would WANT that in the contract. I would WANT compensation if, during a litter back, something happened to her. What if she had to be spayed during a c-section in her first breeding that belongs to her breeder? Or worse, what if she died? If I was selling a bitch as a breeding prospect, I would WANT in there exactly what the person keeping the dog is responsible for spending and what I am responsible for spending. It's MUCH more detailed when we're talking about a breeding dog.

A show-only dog? You want that it can't be bred without your permission (which shouldn't matter to the person who ONLY wants a dog to show); you don't really care much about anything else.

"I totally agree BUT thats just TOO BAD FOR THEM as long as the breeder is reasonable in the decision.
Thats what signed contracts are for."

I wish. There are people that will go to the ends of the earth slandering you if you refuse to turn over a limited registration. Making stuff up. Or sueing--which is possibly worse, because a judge probably won't get the point. Heck, I once got chewed out by a customer because her 20 year old dish broke when she dropped it on the floor. She proceeded to call corporate and tell them a nice, long, story about how I wouldn't replace her (discontinued, no longer available, $400 on e-bay) platter and was rude about it. Since when is "no" rude?

Hmmm, seems like been there is quoting some items from my post under "sense of entitlement". Yep, I wanted to win right out of the gate - NOT!

I started 20 years ago, reading and watching and learning, attending shows, spent five years in a dead end veterinary position to learn, so when my hubby retired I could have the best start possible. I waited over a year on a waiting list for my first girl. Took her to other breeders for evaluation and lessons - knew I needed more than one mentor. I joined an all-breed club, went to handling classes, have pulled myself up by the bootstraps.

Now, "Been There" seems to want to chastise my hard work. First - please don't refer to the "pillars of the breeding community and long-time breeders" as the ones who are putting off the "newbies", I have found them to be nothing less than kind, gentle, supportive and helpful. Its the 5-15 year mentors (the up and coming pillars of the Lab community) who seem to like to give everybody the hard knocks.

BreederII - you have a fantastic grasp on what is going on. Thank you - there are many, many flowers like you out there - if we haven't already met - I hope to meet you one day.

The point of all of this - is SOUR GRAPES gets you no where. You're hurting the breed by not helping and encouraging the newbies, politics in the ring squashes many spirits and sends them into the land of BYB. Few of us are willing to forge ahead, stick to our morals, and hopefully just be called "one of the gang". I'm not looking for favors, or a leg up, I'm just looking for honesty.

I see many wonderful breeders get deserving congratulations on this forum - I'll be honest, if I wasn't there and haven't met you - I don't add my congats because I figure I'm just cluttering up the forum. One the other hand - I see many other wonderful breeders doing fantastic things out there - and not a word on this forum. Congrats to one and all - not just your buddies.

A friend once told me about a t-shirt someone gave her as a gift:

"Winner's Bitch (but losers bitch more)". You know what I'm finding some losers don't bitch more, some winners do.

It's called networking...and it is a part of research. And I don't recall saying anything about eavesdropping.

You can also pick up a lot on some of the more close-knit boards & e-mail lists where they aren't afraid to talk to people in a friendly fashion instead of this board, which is much more factual and direct.

I really have nothing to add, but honestly really enjoyed this thread!

I saw a bumper sticker the other day that said
"Be nice to us smokers, we don't have long to live"

Kind of made me chuckle

So, maybe some old time breeders should be nicer to some of the newbies...you won't be around forever!!
Just a joke.

You are so funny Ellie! The REALLY funny part is that you WON!!!

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

I am so worried about maybe not winning that I made many misspelled words I am so sorry ellie

Newbies need to be patient, determined and not so sensitive. You could spend years finding the right "first" dog. It doesn't mean that people are being mean to you or that they sold you a dog that they knew wasn't going to work out. #@!l* happens. You pick yourself up and try again. That's why all the old-timers are still around.

Ok I'll take that last knock - don't think I was overly 'sensitive.' Just kept pluggin at it til I got the dog I wanted also was on a list for a bitch for 6 months this time around. I agree with all of you. Theres a saying coined by an old dressage friend of mine that I stole and use - TTT - Things Take Time.
Yep mentorship is the name of the game - especially in learning lines so a major mistake is not made. How else would someone like me figure out which lines carry something that is not published but 'known only by those in the know' like seisures? Scarey.
Thanks so much for such an enlightening thread.
A

And, as usual Peggy, everyone was wonderful. Actually I must say that I have never heard of any nastiness at any show. I guess trouble is there if you look for it. But, "Baby" did win and we were very excited about it. Now, we are on our way tomorrow to a visit with my grand daughter in North Carolina and on to the Raleigh Durham show. We will take Dallas, Bentley and Manny. Ellie

Again, I will say that all of the people I know, and there are lots all over the country, would help anyone who wants help with questions, suggestions and whatever. But, there are many books out there and pedigrees to read from old books and Julia Brown Directories to learn about dogs' ancestors. However, don't think for one minute that there is a line that has no problems. Why do you think they have so many puppies. Most don't make it to 6 weeks in the wilds. God designed things to be this way. This is not something we can do. We can never eliminate every problem. Nobody is trying to keep secrets from you all. Nobody is trying to dupe you into anything. And, how many people have something come up in a puppy and all of the sudden IT MUST BE THAT TERRIBLE STUD DOG. Well, think again, because the bitch contributes a lot to her puppies. I want to say 70%, but, like some, I have not been designated by God to make those statements. Why is this breeding thing making people so put off so much? Why does evryone need to have the top dog in the country? Sit the heck down and cool your heels. Ellie

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Yep mentorship is the name of the game - especially in learning lines so a major mistake is not made. How else would someone like me figure out which lines carry something that is not published but 'known only by those in the know' like seisures? Scarey.

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If all one learns from a mentorship is who is behind the epilepsy you've got or who's throwing elbow problems, you've got the wrong mentor. These things are part but by no means all of breeding and being successful in dogs.

Doing research doesn't mean going on a witch hunt to find who's producing the latest disease. Research is as previously mentioned; digesting pedigrees, attending seminares, pouring over all the Labrador books and publications you can find, sometimes falling asleep with those visions in your head, learning the written standard and applying it to what appeals to you. Then your search begins. You could sit ringside for a couple of years before desiding what you like. Then it could take several more years before you find a puppy that works. Yes, you will wash out several along the way. If you don't you're one of the few. And it's really a shame if you don't run into problems because that's another way we learn. If you're physically able, learn how to handle your own dogs. There's a wealth of information in that alone if you think about it.

Pick a line you like, a dog that's appealing to you, search out those who have those pedigrees and begin to meet those folks. Try calling and asking to come to the breeder's home to see their dogs up close. Communicating at a dog show is difficult. Everyone is attempting to get to the ring on time or walk a dog. There is no free time at a dog show. No matter how long you've been "in dogs", it's always a pleasure to meet a new person who's interested in what we have. That doesn't mean, however, that we will have a pup for you. We're lucky to even find one for ourselves from a litter let alone give a good one away.

And believe me, if you haven't "made a major mistake," you haven't been in dogs long enough.

In spite of it all it's the journey that's so much fun.

Anon-mousse - great answers. I hope everyone noted in my posts that I avoided the "what's in the this line" issue - because that was something I learned very early on.

I'm talking about the "sense of entitlement" issue - I don't think as many newbies feel that way, at least not as many as everyone thinks. I just want to be part of the gang.

As for mentors - I have many, many I haven't even met. Ellie - you are one of those, my 19 month old bitch lost today in open (thought I've give it a try - what they hey) to a bitch you bred, a Gordie daughter - nice bitch. Would have had a better day if I didn't LITERALLY fall on my tuckus in the ring (grass was wet). I feel like a winner today - even though I took nothing. Yesterday I took RWB - but yesterday, I didn't handle nearly as well as I did today (except for the one slip - which I tried to laugh off and handle graciously). Did get out of the ring as soon as I could - I didn't want anyone to know how bad my ankle really hurt. LOL

Off to soak my foot!

Oh my gosh,I am sorry for your loss but hope Jerry, her new owner did get points. Now there was a pick bitch we placed. Jerry, the new owner, just wants a family pet and one to show and it is a wonderful home and Lucy is a great dog and looks great. So we did place a pick 2 year old with a pet/show home She will not be bred as he does not want to do the breeding thing. That is fine with us as she is their friend and pet first and show thing next. Ellie

Thanks Sharlene,
It just seems like everyone should be given a chance until they prove otherwise.

I totally agree, it did take me YEARS to get a nice dog but it also took me years to find a nice mentor!!

Ellie - yep Lucy took WB, BOW & BOB on both days. My loss - I had a 12 month 4 day old bitch who actually went RWB yesterday and a 19 month old bitch I thought I'd throw into open for fun. Its nice now and then to do that - it reminds you how much growing up they still have left to do. Had fun until I fell - but now, I actually think its pretty funny.

People like Labradors because they are easy keepers and have great temperaments. They don't have major issues like some other breeds other than standard health problems that every breed faces. That is why they are so popular. Everyone wants one, everyone has one and everyone thinks theirs is the best.

I can guarantee in a rarer breed and you will find top breeders dying to get puppies into show homes.

But people are lazy. Why strip a terrier or try to train a hound or groom a setter, when you can just let a Lab lay around your house? It's still a huge amount of work to do it correctly. People don't understand that. It is the instant gratification factor and I can understand how an established breeder would feel when a puppy with potential languishes in a home when the family gets tired of the whole dog thing.

At the same time there are some of us who do care and study and read books and go to shows, who keep all their catalogs and mark them! Who haven't had a real vacation in years. Beacsue they would rather go to a dog show. Someone once told me they go to Potomac for the SHOPPING and don't bother watching to show! That's a sin! These people never do get the big picture and that's a shame. If it keeps top breeders from considering selling a puppy to a real student of the breed, then it's an even bigger shame.

Of course they were wonderful! I am not sure where all the nastiness is happening, but I am not seeing it. People are always nice when good fortune smiles upon us with a win.

Congrats again on the "baby"...she is beautiful! Good luck at Raleigh Durham to Bentley and Manny from "the kids". Safe journey!

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Replying to:

And, as usual Peggy, everyone was wonderful. Actually I must say that I have never heard of any nastiness at any show. I guess trouble is there if you look for it. But, "Baby" did win and we were very excited about it. Now, we are on our way tomorrow to a visit with my grand daughter in North Carolina and on to the Raleigh Durham show. We will take Dallas, Bentley and Manny. Ellie

I am so sorry about your leg and foot. That is so embarrasng as well as very painful and you hate to have people know how bad it hurts. LOL. Congrats on RWB at the shows in Va Beach. They used to always have majors at those shows. Thanks for the info about the show. Traci got an email from Jerry and he said nothing about doing anything in the group. Well WB is good enough We are just about packed for RD so see ya after. Ellie

Bringing this back up. They are the thoughts and opinion of a well-versed Breeder. Sometimes if you do a search for archived items you will find your answer in those.
For those of you who missed this you might be interested in reading it, for those who saw it re-reading might help as it says a lot. It is a well written piece by apparently a high class breeder who's been around some time and is honest & intelligent. He or she lays it on the line with class IMHO.
It is worth the read for those that wonder why they can't find a mentor or someone to sell them that show pup just when they want it to happen. We all need to earn trust at different times of our lives, that exists in the breed as well.
To the Breeder who wrote this it is one fine job and worth bringing it back up. Kudos! You are educating others.

Posted by: Been There
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Recent occurrences of aggressive and nasty postings display a schoolyard bully mentality that certainly has no business on this forum. It further illustrates another situation which seems to be a recurring theme.
It is an unfortunate fact of life that you are judged by the company you keep. Haven't we all, at some point, been cautioned to avoid running with a certain crowd unless we wanted to be stigmatized by the same reputation?
If you want the reputable and long-standing pillars of the breed to welcome, support, advise, and encourage you, etc., be careful of the choices you make. A previous poster cited the fact that she already had certain "mentors" who she respected, but felt that she was being given less of a welcome in the Labrador community because of problems her "mentors" might have had in the past with others.
In a hypothetical situation, consider this: Your mentors were once in the "newbie" position where you currently find yourself. The aforementioned pillars of the breed may very well have welcomed these newcomers and generously offered encouragement, advice, support, etc. In some instances this generous behavior may have been rewarded in the most despicable ways imaginable. Why then, would anyone want to expose themselves to additional abuse by those who might be labeled as "respected mentors."
No one should be faulted for being careful while walking through a snake pit.
Fortunately, this does not happen every time a new person seeks advice, etc. But once it has happened, don't blame the victims for being cautious about exposing thier backs to these treacherous people once again.'

Pick your mentors as you would pick your friends.

You can tell almost instantly when you meet a breeder if you want to deal with this person or not. Sure some "Long Time Breeders" are on their own pedestal, who cares? Avoid them.

Remember that many newbie people are not easy to deal with either.

It's simple, good mentors (just as good friends) are out there....be persistant until you find the right ones. Use your own good judgement.

As I've said many times before:
Be courteous, and honest.
Treat people in the manner which you would like to be treated.
Be scrupulous about protecting your integrity, it is one of the most valuable assets you will ever have.
Always deal with people you trust.

I reread this thread and (shock) read an old post of mine...I have to say...I have met many wonderful people in the lab world through this forum and showing. Yes, there are sour folks out there, but there are gracious and wonderful people out there who have asked me about my dogs and been very friendly at shows. Some have helped me when I have had to go back into the ring. These are people I barely know. So while my start was studded with rough spots, I have found many fabulous people in this game.
Thank you!
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