Need some advice. Big breeding kennel with many popular stud dogs charges top dollar (as in $1000 not including extenders, etc) and payment up front for stud fees -- before shipping anything. Credit card number is given and charged. First shipment arrives and has few sperm, those swimming are very sluggish and uncoordinated after appropriately warming them. Second shipment arrives with no sperm -- dead or alive. Now 4+ weeks later ultrasound reveals no pregnancy. BIG surprise! BTW, timing for breeding the bitch was perfect. I have never received after multiple requests any stud dog contract in writing. Do you think it is right to request or expect a refund in this case? If the kennel can even be reached (a common problem as it happened to me and others who have dealt with them) for shipments on the proper days next time around for the free re-breeding, whose to say the semen will be better quality then?

I dont think I would have used any top dollar dog without something in writing... usually teh stud contract is signed before or at the time of breeding and spells out exactly what happens if your girl does not whelp (esp if it sounds like an issue with the colection) I doubt they will give you a refund, but would certainly expect a re-breed next season at no charge.

I would say their reputation will be known and it will hurt them eventally. You can't operate like that without it coming back to you.

I would write them a letter stating exactly what you stated here and see if they will at least try to comply next time when you need it. Wouldn't hurt to ask.

Ihave one answer to this do your home work on the service provided to other's ask for references all the time.
I ship semen all over the place and Guess what all cleared lines and also yes I show and I always have a wonderful breeding with all I ship or have to AI here in my home I do both. I only charge half down at time of breeding and the other half when the pups are on the ground and 4 weeks of age, I give everyone time to get the extra balance in to pay me , When I receive the funds by MONEY order or Bank Check only for the balance for people that I do not know I then have them go online to do the registration to get the litter registered. If there would be a miss this has happened one time. I feel she was passed her date they did not want to test her so be it. She was back here last month and is now Expecting. I insisted they bring her by day 5 to make sure not missed. Well I bred her the next day that is how fast she was ready. I did her on day 6 and 8 and all done.
I would never avoid any customer of mine at all.
GO AFTER THE PEOPLE THAT YOU PAID OR SPREAD THE WORD AROUND ABOUT HIS SERICE TO YOU> THAT IS HOW I WOULD HANDLE THIS ALL THE WAY> There are plenty of good dogs out there and honest stud dog owners that will not rip you off. DO YOUR HOMEWORK next time.
My boys are checked yearly for there sperm count all 3 are 99.9 % pure. No misses if the dam is on the right date. You did everything right now it is there turn to do you right!!! Do they have another boy to use instead of the one you have been using. I would check that out for sure. I would not feel comfort in using a dud again or even trying to!

Ok, now I think everyone knows who this kennel is....

As a bitch owner, I just want to comment on how stud dog managers should handle their breedings. If you advertise a dog at stud it is your responsibility to make sure you ship viable semen at the time it is asked for. This is given,you've been contacted prior, etc.. Some bitches go 8-9 months in between seasons, and one missed breeding is devastating when you have planned and spent money on progesterone tests. I have seen this hapen quite often, by the time you don't recieve your shipment or it's not a viable collection, it's too late to use your back-up.

The majority of us do. Theres always those bad apples...........

you said

GO AFTER THE PEOPLE THAT YOU PAID OR SPREAD THE WORD AROUND ABOUT HIS SERICE TO YOU> THAT IS HOW I WOULD HANDLE THIS ALL THE WAY

Please explain this?

Get your money upfront! By one that learned the hard way. I am now having to pursue an attorney to get my money etc.I trusted a girl from Atlanta to pay me the stud fee etc. and she sold all the liter and never held up to any of her promises. THe liter was healthy and I have heard from people that have bought a puppy from this liter. SHe also lied to them... promising them AKC papers which will not happen until I get my payment. I hate it but this will be another act that people that bought pups might be pursuing in court also. At least 8 beautiful puppies. She should of paid her stud fee etc.I have tried nicely to contact her to get this resolved and she will not respond. Saw her at the Atlanta show where she is an active member and she was working as part of the committees host and she did not even acknowledge me nor try to speak. I am a very reasonable nice person. But a business transaction is stictly business and I will handle it as such. I refused to sign off on the paper work also and have kept in touch with AKC. But speaking about contracts and breeding... We just honored a repeat breeding to another lady in Atlanta because her timing was off on her semen with the first round.So now she has a nice preg. bitch. It is only common courtesy and expected to repeat sending a semen if it dones not catch.ANd this nice lady paid her stud service. Just be careful and take a good long look at it from a business stand point when it comes to fair treatment and paying up.Yes, I am seeking attorney action in Atlanta and word of mouth about this person for not paying her stud fee etc. I recently sent one more nice request for the money and got no response.Sad!

CONTRACT CONTRACT CONTRACT. No contract, no breeding, whether you own the bitch or the dog. Then you don't have these questions.

I think someone is trying to stir the pot for their own misguided reasons and is just trying to smear someone who is "a big breeding kennel" and "charging top dollar," etc. I have a hard time believing anyone would approach a breeding situation in this manner. I smell a troll. JMO

Nope, sorry to say I am not a troll and this nightmare did indeed happen. I am a small, fairly new breeder. I own no stud dogs. Since I was dealing with such a big and well known kennel I never dreamed I would be treated in this manner. I am simply asking what others would do if they were in my shoes.

So....what's your agenda? Friends of the "big breeding kennel?"

I have no idea who you are referring to...I still feel this is not the venue for airing your public agenda.
You can use being an inexperienced breeder as an excuse, but are you an inexperienced person?
Sorry, this still sounds suspicious to me.

Seems no matter what the discussion, the posts these days go down the tubes. I so wish folks had to use their names............they might take responsibility for what they say. Everyone doubts and questions everyone else's motives and whether or not they're genuine. It's really getting to be a drag.

To the original poster, I agree with Nancy, a strong contract is what you need. I don't know about AKC but with CKC they'll still go ahead and register the litter, even without the fee paid. It seems to many of us that all they care about is the money they make off the registrations. Good luck with your situation, I hope the folks come through for you.

Reply to US GRANT,
I am saying that if the stud dog owner is no way responding to the owner of the dam to go ahead and spread the sad news as to how she has been treated. Shipping bad semen with slow moving swimmers and then the next one none at all ???????????????? I would have to ask for a test to prove he is a stud of standard being used for top dollar! I would never use a boy that had a low count and except money for this just not fair to the dam owner expecting a shipment she has paid for in full and to have this happen 2 times and then avoid the situation by no replies to her phone calls or mail. Just not the way to handle the situation. They could offer another stud dog to her to use with her dam. Progesterone test cost plenty and the collection fees and shipping to have a girl not become pregnant in two shipments. If you were the stud dog owner would you ignore the situation or do the right thing and try in every way possible to complete the contract and do as the woman paid for a litter of puppies or just turn your back and say to bad better luck next time. With another stud fee elsewhere to be paid because the dam owner is being ignored by the stud owner. I would definitely open my mouth all over the place. I will try in every way to make sure a breeding takes place with my stud dogs they can return all they want and if the girl is tested and is ready for breeding and I get the call to ship. I call Fed x to stop at 4 PM on the way back to the airport to pick up my shipment that I collect at 3:30 in the after noon to send on the way, I have never had a problem with this and I hope that I never do. But if it should ever arise I would make sure I took care of the problem as soon as possible. There would be a second shipment the very next day if something happened to the first one. And I do check before I do ship to make sure all are very much alive and swimming full speed ahead.
There is no excuse for low semen except if the sire is being used day after day for a long period of time and some recover slower than others to produce a good shipment. That is what testing and checking is all about before you ship. Also the dam owner has to notify the stud owner that her dam is in season so they can plan on the shipment that it will be a good one not sub standard from over use of the stud dog.

I send out contracts to all the dam owners with a written guarantee to ship again if missed as long as hey test there girl to make sure she is ready to be bred. I do not ignore a client in any way I am there to help the client along in the process as all good stud dog owners should be to make sure it is the contact time to ship. After all it cost on both ends to ship not just the stud dog owner.

I hope this explains the statement if ignored by the stud owner go after them in all ways possible to resolve the problem if not spread the word of how you have been treated after paying for a service that was not completed and no response from them, To warn other Dam owners to be very careful in the choice they make from the many stud dogs available out there for use. Just not in my book to not reply to an owner if my dog is being used for a litter . I do not want my name drug thru the mud for any reason at all let alone a problem like this that could be resolved just by a phone call or by mail. No thanks I like my name to much and respect other breeders who do the same! It is called HONESTY and Integrity .

Carolyn,

I think we agree on basics. Sending viable sperm is the responsibility of the stud dog owner. I now know why many stud owners use a Vet to collect and evaluate the sample before sending. This way, a third party does the check. If it is sent in good shape, and received in poor shape, it might not be the repsonsibility of the stud dog owner.

Think about it this way. Many kits ask the bitch owner to "warm" the sample. This is not necessary, the bitch will do all the warming the sperm need. Why risk killing the sperm??

There are myriad reasons why the sample could be poor. Only one of which is the stud dog owners fault. My question and comment to you, simple enough, why are you so dead set on ruining the reputation of the stud dog owner? Instead of handling a problem in private, you want to slander someone's good name.

What if your girl did not take either time, no
matter what the reason and you still want a
puppy out of this stud?

Would it be wrong to ask for a puppy out of a
future breeding from this male?
After all, we invested $$$$ in the stud fee,shipping,
progesterone tests,kits,advertising the litter.

IMO, I would think the stud dog owner would want
one of their puppies out there and being show..
Sperm is cheap..unless it produces puppies!

The semen was very hard to find on the scope, no one could find more than one or two sperm per sample. The "kennel" was contacted and they said inseminate anyways. After reading the posts, it seems that if we inseminated it became our problem.

The first shipment the extender was pure orange, no milky substance (semen) at all to make it a milky - orange. Our vet brought up some good points...possibly the collection was done wrong, split, or maybe if it sat around while before packaging it. The second shipment we had hope, it it also was a disappointment.

We are not trying to post blame just wondering what could be done, and what would you do in our shoes?

We trusted this kennel as they had a good reputation. We did our homework, made the calls even got cell phone numbers. We even told them 3 days in advance when she would most likely be ready. On that day you could not get a hold of anyone. We have dealt with other kennels, and they have be wonderful to work with. We just wondered what everyone else's thoughts were and how this can be prevented next time.

Reply to US Grant:
Well I agree with all you say and if the owner of the stud dog would of replied to the owner of the dam it would not of been put on this forum to be red by all that do read it like a bible every day. As far as I am concerned it could of been resolved in private but evidently the stud owner did not choose to do this. She was asking what we would do and I just said the if no response from him or her than she should warn other breeders if they would ask about this person for a referral to not give them a good report at all to set the record straight about the service she received from them. If I was using the same kennel for one of my dams I would want references and also ask if they were satisfied and if they would say no I would ask why and that is how we all are when it comes to using a stud dog. I want facts not all of them before I decide to use the dog or not.

There are stud dogs out there that do cost way more than a $1,000.00 for there service I have inquired about them but then I always find one of the offspring that are of the same lines for a less fee for the service and use that one instead. You get what you pay for and usually a bonus to with the dams lines in with the offspring from the original sire you wanted to use anyway.

If the stud owner that did this to the woman has any idea why this could of happened then he should be speaking with the owner of the dam and trying to figure out what happened to he shipment of the semen and how he can help to make it right not ignoring her. Like I said if you do not want a problem to arise then keep the door shut and take care of the issue in private. There is an answer to everything and usually can be handled in a diplomatic way I feel.

Good Morning to you Susann,
I am sorry to hear that this happened to you. There can be very mean people out there and when you describe this one she should lower her head in shame a person that has her dogs in the ring and a breeder and on the clubs venue to boot should be faced in person to see what the problem is.!!!!

I would never sign a litter agreement until paid the balance and it is in the contract that I own half the litter until payment in full for the stud fee. This has worked well Thank Heavens I have not had any issues with my stud agreements and everyone has complied to them even fellow breeders and show people. This is a plus ! I have to speak on the phone many times with he owner of the dam and have references also before I even proceed with my agreeing to do this

Why not give her a call and tell her one of the puppy buyers was inquiring about the AKC registration and that you think that it would be a good Idea to finish this transaction so the pups can have the papers they deserve to have with there new owners. Then you both can move on but make sure it is in a money order from a bank or a bank check no personal checks to stop payment on. The owners of the litters pups could actually go after her for the papers and then she would have to pay you so the papers could be issued for the litter. If you only knew who they all were this would help you out. Did she say the pups come with and AKC registration?? If she did and they did not receive them she is not going to be in good standing with the AKC they can pull her privileges for this I have seen this on a website for the dog breeder's and kennels that have failed to do this and had the privileges revoked for up to some 4 years for repeated offences.
Hope all works out well for you and you receive your money well due to you.
Carolyn

Whoops Suzanne spelled your name wrong I apologize. My neighbor spells it the other way for her girl and my brother's daughter to!!!

Hey Carolyn,
Thanks for the kind advice and nice information. Live and learn each day. I have already forwarded the emails and contacts to her about the new puppy owners wanting their akc papers. She has not responded...this was a good while ago. I have since tried to call and talk to her and sent nice emails once again just recently asking her kindly to please lets settle up and move on. I never get any response. Thanks again for listening and your advice. Have a good day.

Have you tried sending the request for payment by certified mail? That would probably be the next required step before filing for collection in the county where the transaction took place, but that's only my experience working in business and in the county I reside.

Suzanne,

Have you sent a letter to all members of the club in which she belongs to? I would try that as well. If she is a member of a local club you might alert them...Send an email to all members of the club (if she is a member somewhere)! Sometimes the power of everyone will help.

Erin

All good ideas to help Suzanne with her problem -- which had nothing to do with the original poster's question. Back to the original poster. Since your credit card was charged, you might try contacting your credit card company since you didn't get what you paid for. Wouldn't that count as fraud????

Good idea, maybe not fraud but certainly bad business practice. If she charged it on Am-Express, the payment would be put on hold until resolved to her satisfaction.

Oh Wow- here we go again. Now everybody out there is guessing and just sure they know who the big stud dog kennel is. Well let me just say for the record- WE HAVE NO DOG WHOSE STUD FEE IS 1000.00- ITS NOT US. LEAVE US OUT OF THIS ONE- PLEASE!!!!!!
Judy

Judy, I know personally it was not you guys!!
You are a real pleasure to deal with, very accommodating and professional in every aspect, this is from personal experience on our part.

Can everyone just stop with the negative energy for god's sake!! I think the HySpire gals have had enough....I know I have!!!
As for the stud service. Let me say first hand that Judy, Lisa and Vonnie are MORE than accomidating providing a service for our bitches who's heat cycles are all over the place. And when it doesn't work out and the bitch doesn't get bred for whatever reason they are most happy to do it again. Arrgg and Hmmm I feel so sorry for the both of you and unfortunately you will be the ones still at the bottom of the heap years from now. For me the dog hobby is fun. I must say the friendships I have made far out weigh the winning (not that I have done much)I am sure the seasoned breeders will agree. If you have an issue with a stud owner, take it up with them in private...not here. When you say things like Big Breeding kennel....rumors start to fly. So just stop.

Shelley

I bred to Lisa's boy Cruz many years ago and had 2 pups. She repeated the breeding for me on her next season at no charge!! Not many breeders today would do that, as 2 pups is considered a litter. I recall we watched the breeders cup, horse race waiting for the tie to end

Stop the negativity!! As my mother taught me if you can't say anything nice keep your mouth shut!!!!

A similar thing happened to me as well in the purchase of a puppy. It also happened to Fred, Rick and MaryLynn.

Move on, learn from your experience. Solicit others opinions re your future stud dog selection. Network, network, network. One off instances are usually just that. Reputable breeders do everything to make it right.

I am sorry that this happened to you .