I know this has been discussed on here quite a bit.
Thought I might post. OCD is it inherited? or is caused more by possibly over excercising as a young puppy.And if its inherited how far back would it crop up.
I have never had this problem. much less Pano. But I just had a puppy client email me about a puppy they bought from me 16 mos ago. They also have her brother they bought when he was 10 mos. I have a brother to both of those dogs. And the parents.I also know the grandparents on both sides. I also know on both sides sires/dams gs/gd there isn't any problems.

There other dog they bought from me was much bigger in bone longer frame and was never heavily excercised here. Till I found out what the excercise protical was at the new home afterwards.
Both puppies were fine when they went to this home.and both had wellness checks with in 48 hrs.

. long walks 2-3 miles and once around a lake as well. Think we were still getting snow as said family lives in the mtns. and have 2 young kids. so loads of excercise .

I remember the owner emailing and saying that the dog was lame and so figured it was pano. But with rest it would get over it. I figured the dog got worn out.
And I told her to much excercise, back off. But all I heard was the dogs are doing fine they are loving it. Daaa but what is it doing to bones.
So in August of last year they bought my 10 mo The dog in question her brother. No problems and I hadn't heard of any problems with either one of them Even saw the female in question when she was getting eyes cerf'd she looked fine and moved fine no limping and hadn't had any .

Till apparently this winter she was bad off.And now in both shoulders barely made it through winter.she is going to get surgery on both this week.

Apparently the orthopedic is saying it's inherited. so she emailed me to tell me this.That I have it in my lines. Well I have been working with these lines for quite a long time. And have close relationships with my puppy clients. This is the first I have heard of it.Any suggestions. I do know now I will have a clause in my guarantee on excercise.

The other 2 dogs in this litter have no problems.

I had a pup years ago placed in a working home show up with OCD in a shoulder years ago. When I inquired about it to several veterinarians (teaching hospital vets, specialists), the answer was that there may be a family component, but there are so many factors that it is hard to say absolutely that it is hereditary.

There is a nutritional component, growth component, an exercise component, etc, etc.

Unfortunately, since the vet has told your clients that it is hereditary, it will be hard to convince them otherwise. Best thing you can do is research the documents that are available and educate yourself and them.

MK

Here is one explanation that popped up when I searched.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&articleid=464

Sorry I thought i read in the clients letter the shoulder area.
But it's Bilateral OCD in Tarsus.aka Hock
Which I diffently have never had that.There.

Is it more rare to have it there?
At the beginning when she first bought the pup.It was lameness in the front leg. The dogs also do alot of swimming. But just alot of running. period. The dog has been on an no grain diet since she bought it at 3 mos. (Force)

I once approached a very nice man about using his very handsome, well titled field dog. I talked with this gentleman for probably an hour about my history, my dogs, his dogs, his history in dogs etc.
At the end of the hour, he realized I was not in breeding to "win", but to produce healthy puppies. He advised against using his stud as it had OCD, not as severe as that dog's sire, but bad enough. He told me that once OCD is introduced into your lines, it can be quite difficult to breed out because it is determined by several factors.
I thanked the man for a lovely conversation and he wished me well with my dogs. To this day, I hold that gentleman in the highest regard because he told me of the risk.

In a case of OCD in the shoulder that we had almost 20 yrs ago - the puppy was jumping off a small set of steps to the pool that were cement. I didn't know at the time, but this was the worst thing to do for his shoulders. We stopped that at once and started swimming therapy and he recovered. We had a girl with OCD in the hock once, which is less common, and she was h_ll on wheels, which I think had something to do with the injury. We did surgery at 5 months and she recovered very well. We have an excellent orth. vet to thank for determining so quickly what we were dealing with. So, I would say there is a predisposition for it, but incorrect exercise will bring it out.

I agree with the last person, OCD as well as elbow issues such as FCP, are passed on through hereditary, however, they seem to be more influenced by exercise and diet than say hip dysplasia is.

We have a spayed bitch with elbow dysplasia that had surgery for FCP 4 years ago, and while I am sure it was passed down genetically (turns out the breeder never elbow OFA'd her dogs), my girl's activity was just too much and led to the end result.

My boy was diagnosed with OCD of the hock (bilateral, but more evident in one) as well. Fortunately, it's quite mild, but the veterinarians we consulted with (we had 5, including an orthopedic specialist and a radiologist) was that it is indeed hereditary and that he should be neutered. I've taken their advice. There is nothing so special about my boy that I'm willing to take the risk of adding even more OCD genes to the Labrador gene pool.

I know how this dog was raised. Nothing detrimental in terms of environment, food, etc. No injuries.

As a note - the orthopedic specialist told me flat out that if he was in a pet home, they probably never would have caught the OCD as the lesions were tiny. The only obvious changes were that his hocks are thickened and a very mild limp after field training. So, unless the dogs you are speaking of have had their hocks, shoulders and other joints xrayed, they could have been affected (and of course carried) it without anyone knowing.

FWIW, my boy was also OFA'd at 2 years and came back elbows clear and hips excellent.

I told this pet owner that with all the undo exercise she was giving the puppies. I would not guarantee. 2-3 miles running while she was jogging or riding her bike. Then this lake is about 1 mile from the house.The like is about 4 miles around. Big mtn lake. Felt she was wearing out the pups.

Years ago I had one possible OCD of the hock, in a pup that I'd sold, but in the end, it wasn't OCD. That pup played really hard with the owner's sister's older boxer, for play sessions that would last 3 hours. The lameness always occured after playing. I had a great deal of difficulty convincing the owner that a puppy can be limited to reasonable periods of play, she would let them play til they both dropped. In the end, the couple split and I got the dog back and re-homed her. She never had another limp.

The only other OCD I've ever produced was yet another dog who played hard, this one was with the older dog that the couple had also gotten from me. Same thing, had such a tough time "separating" the pup from the full size, older male, and they horsed for hours and this growing pup got it. That pup was not even remotely related to the first pup. So while I am sure genetics plays a role, I really felt that the dogs steadily playing hard for long periods really contributed too.

OCD is a "mulifactoral" problem. I did a lot of reading on it recently, and there are very interesting things coming out. One suggestion came through a friend of mine, who stated that OCD in horses is being attributed to a copper deficiency in foals. Lo-and-behold, there are studies being documented with dogs that is starting to demonstrate a possible link to copper deficiency in dogs as well. The copper deficiency can start with a calcium excess. Isn't it interesting that there are dog food companies now re-evaluating the calcium levels in their food, with one I understand being hit with a class-action lawsuit because of calcium levels. I wonder what the OCD rate was in the affected dogs.

Dian Welle

It's a shame that Wind-Morgan/GDC went out of business - I loved that the Wind-Morgan program required not only hips and elbows, but shoulders and hocks to pass as well, in order to receive a Wind-Morgan number. It was a great program - wish it was still around!

I have to agree with you on the excercising part.That is how this pup started. she would only limp after alot of excercise. I had only heard about it at 4 mos.? but it was always after excercise. she had no problems here.

This family has had problems with dogs . she noted to me today 2 dogs with CCL and 2 with severe HD
Now this puppy. If any of the dogs that i worried about was the male I sold her at 10 months he grew fast was tall 24" at about 8 mos and 85 lbs. and kinda long. lots of bone. I would of kept him but he was a bit long for my tastes. so he was neutered when he left my premises. I was shocked that this pup also endured the amount of excercise.But nothing has showed up with him. both are 16 mos.

From studies, not only is OCD polygenic but it is also multifactorial. With a bunch of genes at play, just waiting to be influenced, I'm not sure that any breeder can claim their lines perfectly free. It's a question of gene complementation which decides what every individual is going to inherit - all the clearances in the world will not arm us against this. Only a DNA test could eradicate this disorder... and I'm not aware that any such test is about to storm the market.

One thing for sure, if it's not in the genes, it cannot be influenced by nutrition nor environment. I gave a pup to a friend who owned a sports shop - this pup was running along next to mountain bikes and skis from the time it's legs were long enough to keep up. I cringed and dreaded the x-rays. Not only was she healthy but she lived 16 pain-free, active years. I suspect OCD of the hock is not so uncommon in Labs. Very few breeders routinely test for it but the visible thickening of some hocks could be a revealing factor, even if the dog is not lame.

I checked with this owner to find out if she was still using honest kitchen the puppy was on that food for 6 months that has a calicum level of 1.6% and in aug when she got my other dog switched to canidae 1.2%
The dog goes in today for surgery on both hocks.

Could someone define multifactorial for me? Thanks.

Radiographing our breeding stock's hocks may not be a bad idea JP. I've experienced it 2 different times over the years (that I know of). One needed surgery to correct his one hock.

OCD of the elbows and shoulders seems to be much more prevelant than OCD of the hocks from what I have researched and experienced. I do believe that OCD is linked to genetics but I also believe that if a person allows their young pup or youngster to play and play until they drop, jump up and down from talla place, OCD is ripe for occurring. If the tendancy for developing OCD is there in the young dog, it's just a matter of time before their cartiledge starts breaking off and causing problems in the joints.

Labradors should not be such delicate little creatures that they fall apart so easy. It's a fine balance of how much we as breeders are willing to blame on our puppy owners and what we will admit to as being linked to genetics. Orthopedics is a frustrating aspect to include in our written guarantees when we all know that some of the familes do not heed the guidelines in the contract that they read, hear (me preaching) and they sign. On the flip side, I try to be very fair to families who have bought puppies from me when an orthopedic problem arises and give them the benefit of the doubt.

actually I have found more show breeders, and especially ole timers who don't guarantee for anything. hips elbows eyes etc.. And will depend on the circumstance if they would pay 1/2 or full for a surgery.If I have OCD in my lines there in everyone lines.

"If I have OCD in my lines there in everyone lines."

There is no such thing as a Clean Pedigree, that is fur sure. What we need to concentrate on is each individual dog in our breeding program and how "frequent" a sire and dog each produce a hereditary problem.

As long as we are dealing with Recessive genes, there will never be a clean pedigree.

The key to look for in a dog or bitch is frequency of what they produce, good and bad traits then evaluate what you want to do with that particular dog in your breeding program.

In our region, I personally don't know of any reputable breeders who don't offer some type of written guarantee for "Functionality". Most everybody stands behind the dogs they breed and place.

I do Prelims at depends on the dog and my situation at the time. But usually do xrays at 12 mo-15 mos then 2 yrs. hips/elbows. Should I xray then 12-15m on the hocks.?Since I know I have this potential problem there.

That theory makes no sense to me, as I have fed my dogs raw for 7 years and there is a tremendous amount of ground up bones in the diet which equates to alot of calcium, and I have had much less incidences of any kind of orthopedic problems then I have in the past. Also, where is the source of calcium in a horse's diet?

That's a good question Diane. What age to do prelims and one what body parts. Wind Morgan did include so much more than just hips and elbows but as we are finding out, hocks are an important joint to consider even if the dog isn't showing signs of lameness.

A good example of this is a male puppy I had given to previous puppy buyers. He was on co-own as a show prospect. Classic example of who do ya blame. The guys had been allowing this youngster to jump up and down from their truck and would take him up to the mountains to run like a wild hooligan. One time they let him jump up into the pickup, he went lame in his left hock area. They thought it was pano but turns out that he had developed OCD in the left hock. Trying to keep a 5 month Labrador still for too long is proving to be difficult for these guys. They recently told me that Dillon's lameness has gone away for now. I don't know how OCD can just go away but I find it very interesting non the less.

It could be very easy for me to blame these guys for letting their young dog jump up and down from a pickup but in all reality, I feel this young boy was at risk for OCD anyway, it was a matter of the right circumstances. Their orthopedist didn't give them too promising of an answer when they asked about surgery in that one hock. This boy will turn one yr old this month and surgery will do very little once the dog gets on in age.

My own personal choice as of lately is to wait for my breeding stock to turn 18 months old then radiograph. If you think there could be a problem with OCD in your lines, then you could make the choice to have your vet radiograph your dog's hocks at the same time they do the elbows and hips. What's a few more extra dollars spent right

I wish the Penn Hip was less expensive in our area, because I would do both Penn Hip at 12 months then OFA on final 2 yr. Of course they don't do anything but hips but you could still have them take radiographs of the elbows and hocks and send into OFA for evaluation at the same time..12 month Penn Hip. Penn Hip could be your final hip clearance if you felt comfortable with the results at 12 months old.

Right now, my mind set is to let my girls grow up to 18 months old and if they don't work out Orthopedically for breeding then I spay and find them the best home possible. There are plenty of families looking to adopt a 2 yr old Labrador who has been raised as a valuable family member and out of that naughty puppy stage.

When they are 6 months old, it is still a bit too young to go on OFA prelims and still many people who are looking to adopt a young adult, consider 6 months old a puppy, at least mentally a puppy at heart

On the issue of copper deficiency: I was recently informed by a very knowledgeable/holistic author of canine issues that supplementing with zinc can cause a copper deficiency. When using zinc you must incorporate copper as well.

She never mentioned anything regarding excess calcium and copper deficiency.

From: "Breeder 6" (who needs an alias for this?) "That theory makes no sense to me, as I have fed my dogs raw for 7 years and there is a tremendous amount of ground up bones in the diet which equates to a lot of calcium......"

First, understand that I do not negate that OCD may have a hereditary component. However, in the some 100 pages of documentation I have, the hereditary component seems to be linked to rapid growth periods which may be more dramatic in some breeds (and lines within those breeds).

It is my opinion that breeders best be careful about labeling things as absolutely "hereditary" unless there is a 100% certainty, as the current puppy lemon laws cropping up all over the country predispose us to being sued for a "hereditary condition" to the tune of many thousands of dollars worth of damages. Before you chalk anything up absolutely to being hereditary, it would be best to defer to all of the studies being done that show a variety of reasons for some conditions. OCD is one of those. We absolutely must consider hereditary predispositions or causes for our breeding purposes, but before we label anything as such, we had best be *very* sure, least a Judge use our words against us one day.

None of you want 100 pages of stuff here, however, these are but a few related to the query of "breeder 6":

Dr. Steven E. Weisbrode - Diplomate, ACVP Ohio State University college of Veterinary Medicine:
The cause of osteochondrosis in horses is unknown. Experimental and field cases of osteochondrosis have been associated with copper deficiency and numerous compounds that influence copper availability, including excess zinc, excess calcium, and dexamethasone. Copper is a catalyst for lysyl oxidase, a protein required for formation of collagen cross-links. Cartilage from copper deficient animals has been shown to have a high proportion of soluble collagen and is more susceptible to trauma. Copper supplementation in foals has reduced, but not prevented, the incidence of osteochondrosis.

Dogs:

http://www.msu.edu/~silvar/hips.htm
...."Although generalized nutrient excesses have been blamed for OCD lesions, there is increasing evidence implicating specific nutrients. Excessive calcium intake resulting in a hypercalcitoninism and hypoparathyroidism(2) manifests as retarded bone maturation, inhibition of osteoclastic activity, and slowed cartilage maturation. "

Nutritional Requirements and Related Diseases 2006; Merck & Co., Inc. Whitehouse Station, NJ USA:
..."Excess intakes of calcium are more problematic for growing (weaning to 1 yr) large- and giant-breed dogs. Excessive supplementation (>3% calcium [dry-matter basis]) causes more severe signs of osteochondrosis and decreased skeletal remodeling in young, rapidly growing large-breed dogs than in dogs fed diets with lower dietary calcium......"

Shoulder Osteochondrosis-Shoulder Synovial Chondromatosis-Shoulder Dysplasia
Jean-Pierre Genevois
Professor of Small Animal Surgery, Ecole Nationale Vétérinaire de Lyon
L'Etoile, France
..."Nutritional factors in growing pups: overfeeding, i.e., excess energy, protein, calcium, phosphorus and vitamin D intake (HEDHAMMAR et al. 1974) causes an increased incidence of OCD when compared to a a normal diet. Neither excess energy (LAVELLE 1989) nor excess protein (NAP et al. 1993) in the diet appear to be involved. Excess calcium, conversely, has been shown to be a significant factor (HAZEWINKEL 1985). It has been suggested to cause increased calcitonin activity, thus leading to delayed cartilage mineralisation, necessary for subsequent endochondral ossification. ...."

There is much *much* more, but at least this gives you a taste.

Dian Welle
(no alias required)

Breeder6, there is calcium in the commercial feeds for horses.

Example, here is for Purina Equine Adult horse feed:

Equine Adult®
Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein, % not less than 12%
Fat, % not less than 3%
Fiber, % not more than 25%
Calcium, minimum % not less than .3%
Calcium, maximum % not more than .9%
Phosphorus, minimum % not less than .3%
Copper, ppm not less than 25
Zinc, ppm not less than 100
Vit. A, IU/lb not less than 3000
Selenium, ppm not less than .3

There is calcium in many forages too-grasses, clover, etc.

MK

Why do you feel so threatened because I did not use my name. To tell you the truth I was just too lazy to change what was already typed into that line from my last post.
The bottom line is that they have NO idea what causes it, and like the weather man with his forecasts, if you throw out enough possible scenarios you are bound to be correct with one of them. Unfortunately to do any kind of good long term study and research on something like this it takes quite a bit of money and that is hard to come by,so I don't expect we will find out the answer to this question in the near future. I am sorry Diane if I upset you

Actually, yes- alfalfa (grass or hay), for one, has high calcium content. Clover does as well, as do many other sources.

In fact, when fed (in hay or pelleted form) to adult guinea pigs, it can really predispose them to calcium-based bladder stones. Interesting how sometimes these things can affect all different species in various ways!

Dian - believe me, I hate labels as much as anyone else, nor am I trying to saddle any breeder with improbable responsibilities and ludicrous guarantees.

However, living beings are governed by genetics which, in turn, can be influenced to a greater or lesser degree by outside factors, i.e. nutrition, environment, exercise, state of mind, etc... This explains why some sedentary people can smoke like chimneys, drink themselves in a stupor, lather butter on everything and live until 90, whereas others would die of heart failure at 40 with a similar lifestyle. If calcium alone could cause OCD, then all pups fed similar high calcium diets would suffer from the disorder. Think back to a not so distant past when nutritionists recommended high protein/high calcium kibble for growth stages in our breed - yes, it caused a lot of damage... but only where there was a predisposition, others got off scot-free.

As we cannot as yet map the genetics for OCD, it is only common sense to avoid anything that is known to exacerbate this disorder in dogs. How can we be logically expected to keep a close rein on the health of what we produce when we do not dispose of the necessary tools? How can laws tell us we have to be on top of something nobody understands?

Does this mean that we shouldn't feel implicated in our pups' health once they go out of our door? Of course not! In a perfect world, breeders would be open and objective, buyers would be aware of (and accept) the risks involved in dog ownership and each would understand its limitations. We have to grow up and accept that every pup - no matter how well bred - could be a disaster waiting to happen and shy away from labels. Saying: "This has never happened in my lines!" will not get us anywhere. First of all, only a small handful of breeders worldwide can talk about their "lines" - for the most part, we are cashing in on pre-existent lines full of surprises, both good and bad!