Check this out:

http://www.shadowbrooklabs.com/sbforeign.html

I don't think this is the place to try and air this again.

Mike, sorry to hear what you've been through. That was out in out robbery on his part. Can anything be done through the Consulate General in Puerto Rico?

I guess you live and you learn, no wonder many don't trust people they don't know.

Write it off along with him, so sorry. Hopefully his club with get rid of him as president if they have any decency.

Need any Gnome assistance?

So sorry Michael and Kim has to deal with this low life... not good and I hope they get paid in full!
Aloha,
Jackie

It's a link to a page 'Breeder', you don't have to read it if you don't like it. You're lucky it didn't happen to you!

I guess I'll post how a breeder sold me a dog she didn't own and post my documents too...will I get the same sympathy?

I have had horrible things happen to me..and no one cared and the "breeder" who did is loved by all.

Than add a page to your site and post your documentation. That is all Mike did and he did not post the link to it, someone else did.

By not informing others you are doing a disservice to the breed. JMHO

Ouch ..I did have it on my page and was told it made me look bad...like I was a rumor monger.

I stated fact..not fiction.

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Replying to:

Than add a page to your site and post your documentation. That is all Mike did and he did not post the link to it, someone else did.

By not informing others you are doing a disservice to the breed. JMHO

It seems to be an unspoken rule not to air things on the internet. I don't agree with it but some older timers don't like it at all. They feel it should be kept within private e/mails or done verbally.

The internet is a good way to get the word out IMHO. Glad to see the Silva's have done just that, Kudos!

Let me set the record straight..

I am not asking for sympathy. I am sharing an experience to ensure others are treated with dignity and respect. I have been in our sport for 37 years and feel I have an obligation not only to my breed, but to my fellow peers.

I have shared our experience and the supporting documentation on my website. I have not placed it here on the forum.

You can choose to view it or not.

Respectfully,
Michael Silva

I for one am very glad Mike aired this publically. I have sold a few dogs over seas and worry about them. I get to know the people well before the dog leaves but then again,no one ever really knows anyone do they?
Thank you for letting us know.

Mike you DID put it here on the forum!

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Replying to:

Let me set the record straight..

I am not asking for sympathy. I am sharing an experience to ensure others are treated with dignity and respect. I have been in our sport for 37 years and feel I have an obligation not only to my breed, but to my fellow peers.

I have shared our experience and the supporting documentation on my website. I have not placed it here on the forum.

You can choose to view it or not.

Respectfully,
Michael Silva

and I can guarantee you if someone else did this it would be pulled asap.

You do get special treatment here for whatever reason.

here goes anyway, Firstly, why did you let him go BEFORE all monies were paid, I guess my moto is TRUST NO ONE. I have sent pups to the US from here and would never dream of putting a pup on a plane unless the puppy price and shipping was paid in full. No payment no pup. I have also imported from the UK, same thing, full payment before shipping. You sold him an Optigen B dog that had a dogy temperment( you stated you didn't quite trust the dog) AND charged him $5000 for the pleasure, well more fool him I'd say. This was the second dog you had sold him and you had problems getting money out of him for the first, why would you go back and put yourself through that again. Well thats my opinion anyway, sorry still trying to get over the $5000 for Optigen B with a dogy temprement!

I just visited your web page and you have no link to this drama of yours.
You have made up a private page just for all your buddies and forum folks to see.
If you really were sincere in your motives it would be linked to your page and people would find it on their own.
Posting a link in this forum is not appropriate.
I'd love to get Mr. Maurosa's take on all this but he can't find the page..it's hidden!

I too agree with Jan.

I sure wish I could get 5 grand for a dog with a bad temperament and Optigen B.
I must be doing something wrong.

In my opinion, any male dog that attacks a puppy is temperamentally unstable and should not be sold for the sake of the good name of the breed. We have all had our dogs and bitches attacked by other dogs at shows etc but that experience is not usually enough to send a normal dog "rogue". Most "normal" dogs just shrug off those nasty experiences and carry on with life unaffected. That is Lab temperament in a nutshell. I agree with Jan on the payment issues - never send a dog to anybody until their payment is in your bank (especially if you have been burnt once already by the same person).

If this story stopped you from dealing with this thief you would be thanking him for publishing it. Sounds like jealousy to me but what else is new in the show world.

http://www.shadowbrooklabs.com/sbmain.html

I agree a lot of money for an Optigen B dog you "didn't trust."
Now, I know our acct number is on all checks we write but it would still make me feel funny to have that published on the Internet.

If you are going to attack me for my breeding practices please contact me directly and use your real name. I will be more than happy to have an adult conversation with you. You'll notice I disclosed all documents for public viewing as I have nothing to be ashamed of.

Further, while Dock's temperament was never a consideration for selling him, Kim and I felt the minor infraction, 3 years before his sale, needed to be disclosed. Dock was a wonderful representation of our breed and was an accomplished specialty winner. Dock was sold mainly due to his smaller size.

The reason why I posted this on my website is to protect and to educate. Nothing more and nothing less.

We've all dealt with thieves in the sport...just the way it is. There are bad apples every where and we all have been burned. Best to move on and write off your loss in your business.
Good luck..but take it private is my advice.

I can't find a link to all this on the main page?

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http://www.shadowbrooklabs.com/sbmain.html

Below the puppy link. "Misconduct of a Foreign Breeder - The Tale of Dock"

http://www.shadowbrooklabs.com/sbmain.html

Thank you for sharing with us!!! We are sorry for what happened. I guess we live and learn. Some of us are so trusting and the unfortunate thing is that there are people out there that are so willing to take advantage of us!!!
You have gorgeous dogs!!!

Let me say that I was recently ripped off by a big breeder and my brother who is a very successful (and he is honest) attorney told me to do exactly what the Silva's have done.

Thank you, Micheal for letting us know about this man.
Sorry, for all the negative responses. We know you, they don't. I like to know of things to stay clear of.

what purpose does this serve legally?

What is wrong with you people??? Mike is DISCLOSING an incident to partially protect the rest of you, don't you get it? What is with the "don't tell on the internet or you might be black b*ll*ed." If it's a true story, it's documented so IT IS, the only purpose it serves publicizing it is to help the rest of you avoid a similar situation. Get a clue!

But how does it serve the silva's legally?

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What is wrong with you people??? Mike is DISCLOSING an incident to partially protect the rest of you, don't you get it? What is with the "don't tell on the internet or you might be black b*ll*ed." If it's a true story, it's documented so IT IS, the only purpose it serves publicizing it is to help the rest of you avoid a similar situation. Get a clue!

Hey Joy,

We have lived with our little Dachshund and now a Mini Schaunzer with our big breed dogs. I can tell you that I find it a bit different when a Labrador is attacked by a another big dog of the same size. They do tend to shrug it off and rebound.

I can attest to how some of the little breeds can run the show and put the fear in a normally well tempered Lab or any other big breed dog. We also had a German Shepherd who was very fearful of our little dachshund after our doxie bit her in her butt one time.

If you remember Mike said that a small dog attacked Dock at his very first show. Since then he has not been the same. I can understand how this has changed Dock from my own experiences over the years. These Labs should be unflappable but they are not perfect in every situation due to their previous experiences (bad ones).

Lets try and cut each other a little slack when people post on this forum. So quick to rush to judgement doesn't do anyone any good.

You are right!!! These people should be thankful for what Mike has shared with us!!!

Labluver! Many of the breeders on this list were just at Potomac where this man visited. If this individual made contact with any to pull the same rip-off deal now they are aware of his past history. It might save them from going through what the Silva's have. No one said the Silva's gain legally by this, someone mentioned they were told to do something similar. You're putting words in people's mouths!

If you're not interested or don't care, don't read about this. I have to wonder why are you trying to cause problems by beginning an additional new topic above this now?

OK well here I go again, I don't believe what i am reading, breeders here seem to think that it is OK for an adult labrador "have a go" at a puppy and that selling a dog that has done this as well as being Optigen B for that obscene amount of money is completely acceptable. And NO I am not jealous at all far from it, my dogs are worth far more to me than money, and now that the deal has gone belly up the seller is on here "warning" everyone. A very simple way to stop this happening is to be paid in full in advance. I can't understand why this is on this forum, if there is a legal recourse, is it being taken if not why not and I too would like to hear the other side of the story. Flame away, I get the impression that there are some on here that don't like other people opinions and get most upset when some of us disagree with their opinion,

You are focusing on a tiny portion of this big picture, Jan. Try not to obsess over the dog's temperament or his previously erroneous Optigen status, or the amount of money he was sold for. Like everything else in life, different things are valued differently by everyone -- just because you wouldn't pay that price for a dog, doesn't mean that someone else wouldn't have paid twice as much for that same dog.......he is worth what he is worth to both his seller AND purchaser. Get over it.

And there is nothing wrong with an Optigen B, anyways.......better the devil you know.

Be grateful that we are able to find out about scam artists in ANY facet of life.....

I've been breeding horses & dogs for many years and I never let the sale animal off my property until it has been "paid in full", with only one exception. I did sell one horse locally on a payment schedule. Before the horse left my farm it was fully insured and the insurance remained in effect until the final payment. Also, had a payment been missed, I would have hauled the horse home - and that was in the contract.

The Silva's would not be having their current problem if they had just waited for full payment or passed on the sales. Seems the promise of $$$ was more important to them than good sense. I wish them well but feel they should "leave it" and learn a costly lesson.

I also notice that the Silva's do not mention concern about either of the dogs - only the lack of payment.

"Let me say that I was recently ripped off by a big breeder and my brother who is a very successful (and he is honest) attorney told me to do exactly what the Silva's have done."

I'm not putting words in any one's mouth...see above...what the silva's are doing has nothing at all to do with anything legal...but rather to whine about what was a very poor decision on their part and now want all their buddies to come to their defense when not everyone agrees.

They shouldn't have put it out here if they didn't want differing opinions.

I would like to hear about other people's bad dealings with other breeder's....but those would be removed from the board! Sumpthin ain't right here.

the dog was attacked at his first show. He did no attacking !
Secondly the dog was retested by optigen and has a "Normal/Clear" status. The optigen report is on the link that the first poster provided.. at the bottom of the page.

Try calling the Silva's and maybe you'll have a better idea of the full situation. Not everything can be put on a web page.

I think you people feed off of the bickering on here. Don't you have someone at home or work to have words with if you need to argue?

Leave it be already, it's no fun being ripped off. I've been there done it, not with a dog--even worse. It's a matter of principle at this point.

Go hug your dogs and families and stop this nonsense already! Nighty Night!

Come on people! If we all got on this public forum
and named the people that have sc..... us, whether
truth or not, and there are ALWAYS 2 sides of
the story, our screen would blow up:)

Also, if my name was "genny ren" would you
all come to my rescue If the same happend
to me?? I think not..

This is NOT the place to air your personl
problems. I am sick of hearing about this..

Actually if you read the statement on the web page it says "He layed into a puppy" and as for Optigen retesting, why was that needed, seems odd that a dog that was tested B now tests A does that mean everyone that has a Optigen B can now retest with the possiblity of getting an A. Look I don't care either way what goes on in your back yard, I just get the impression that the seller in this case is very p**sed off with the non payment, when in fact it is a problem of their own making. If it was me I would be on a plane ASAP to go and get the dog, but I fear this is more to do with money not the dog!!!

Yes, get your facts straight.......
You must not have been in Labradors very long, if you are unaware of why some dogs' Optigen results changed. The first test was for markers, the improved test is the mutation test, and YES, Optigen retested dogs on their own.......so to enlighten you, here is the info from Optigen's web site - the NEWS page:

Labrador Retriever:
If you had Labs tested by OptiGen PRIOR TO March 1, 2004, at no added charge to you, we retested these dogs with the new mutation test and are issuing updated reports. These will be mailed by June 2nd. As part of the prcd mutation research, Labradors tested by OptiGen AFTER March 1, 2004 already received reports based on the newly identified mutation. These dogs do not need to be retested. For reports dated March 1, 2004 through May 31, 2005, Patterns A1, B1 and C1 are equivalent to “Normal/Clear,” “Carrier” and “Affected.” Starting June 1, 2005, OptiGen reports define result status as “Normal/Clear” or “Carrier” or “Affected.”

The PRA test for Labs has evolved over 6 years. From September 1999 to July 2003, test results were reported as Pattern A, B or C as determined by detecting DNA markers close to the prcd gene. We recognized and cautioned that there were false positives among these results. Beginning July 2003, based on an improved test with even better DNA markers, the results were reported as Pattern A1, B1 and C1. The frequency of false positives was substantially reduced with this improvement, but was not eliminated.

Another fault of DNA marker tests is the possibility of recombination between the markers and the disease gene. Recombination potentially can separate the markers from the disease gene and lead to incorrect conclusions about the dog’s status. The OptiGen marker test found only three separate pedigrees in which recombination had occurred. These pedigrees were studied extensively to trace the recombination and arrive at the correct status for each dog. These pedigrees also provided information that was eventually helpful to identifying the prcd gene.

With the new prcd mutation test, the result for almost all retested dogs is the same as reported earlier. Some cases of false positives now improve from Pattern C1(C) to “Carrier” or “Normal/Clear” and from Pattern B1(B) to “Normal/Clear.” There are no cases of false negatives and no downgrade in status based on the mutation test. Also, there had been a small group of Labs with “unresolved” status, as designated on their reports. The mutation test resolves the status of “unresolved” dogs.

The frequencies of “Normal/Clear” “Carrier” and “Affected” among OptiGen tested Labs shifts slightly based on results with the new prcd mutation test. Statistics to date show 76% of tested Labs are “Normal/Clear,” 21% are “Carrier” and 3% are “Affected.”

The LEGAL point I was trying to make is that posting the facts on one's website is perfectly legal and one should not be fearful of libel or slander as the truth is what it is and a valid defense against legal action by the other party here.

I don't see it as whining at all. If you have ever been in a situation where you feel completely helpless and taken advantage of, at least helping others avoid the same situation brings some satisfaction.

Really--I'm sure that I am in need of psychological intervention but I think I lead a rather dull life with my Labs who I didn't buy nor do I sell for several thousand dollars. I have an ordinary job and will never fly cross country with my dogs to a show...we travel by car within 8 hours or so. I'm house bound with a litter so playing with the pups and walking and caring for the adults is my entertainment for now--except for this--this is FUN!
I know. I know....somone else's misfortune...well...admitting I'm a sicko is the first step.

From what I've read here a dog that may have been worth a thousand dollars at best was sold for five thousand dollars. Whose been ripped off?
I'm sorry, but the fact that Dock was attacked by another dog at a show is no excuse for him to go after another dog. Dog shows are as un-natural as it gets. Dogs are not allowed to be dogs, if they even walk towards another dog they are yanked and pulled back in line. It has to be stressful on them, but if they can't handle it then they are not a show dog, no matter how beautifully the dog is put together. It's a total package. I can't imagine any of my dogs going after another dog, it's not their nature and if it was they would be spayed or neutered and placed in a pet home. Not sold to another breeder for $5,000!

"I also notice that the Silva's do not mention concern about either of the dogs - only the lack of payment."

Ditto! What about the welfare of the dog? Poor thing. No telling. I hate to think about the fate of both dogs right now. Yikes!

Wether Doc was sold for $5 or $5,000 or $5,000,000
or if he is an Optigen A, B or C is not the issue and frankly, none of anyone's business. The fact that he has not expressed concern for his dog's actual welfare (on this forum) is not the issue either and again, non of YOUR business. What I find more disturbing and annoying is how people think it is their right to judge other breeders. That is unacceptable.

It's doubtful to me the original post had anything to do with "stay away from this breeder", it has more to do with "getting even" with the breeder from PR. Bottom line...it should not have been posted here, and for God sakes, if it's not about the dog's welfare or the $$$, then what is it about? Putting the info out there MADE it everyone's business.

IT BECAME EVERYONE'S BUSINESS WHEN MIKEY POSTED IT!

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Wether Doc was sold for $5 or $5,000 or $5,000,000
or if he is an Optigen A, B or C is not the issue and frankly, none of anyone's business. The fact that he has not expressed concern for his dog's actual welfare (on this forum) is not the issue either and again, non of YOUR business. What I find more disturbing and annoying is how people think it is their right to judge other breeders. That is unacceptable.

When I read Michael's post I interpreted it as a warning not to do business with this particular breeder. I doubt Michael included the facts of selling price and optigen stauts because he was looking for opinions.

Thanks Michael. Hope you and Kim can just ignore those people that feel they can scold or pass judgement on your breeding program

I was introduced to this man and we spoke several times at the show. He has shown great interest in my dogs. I appreciate the warning because now I will be aware of his past should he contact me in the future. I believe Michael was initially doing him a favor just as some of us are approached about deferring a stud fee, or a puppy price.
Thank you Michael for posting. Alot of us are grateful.

Labluver, you still don't understand and apparently never will. The intention was to protect all of you from the same scam the Silva's experienced. You should be thanking Mike and the initial person that posted but instead you keep going for the jugular vein.
Noticing some residual hostility and wonder what your beef is with Mike but won't waste my time trying to figure it out. I think I have it nailed already, the sport brings out the worst in some of you that don't win when they feel they should. Good sportsmanship is a trait not everyone has or can learn apparently.

Jan wrote:"here goes anyway, Firstly, why did you let him go BEFORE all monies were paid, I guess my moto is TRUST NO ONE. I have sent pups to the US from here and would never dream of putting a pup on a plane unless the puppy price and shipping was paid in full. No payment no pup. I have also imported from the UK, same thing, full payment before shipping.'

My thinking exactly. Any dealings I have had OR my close friends have had, particularly in purchasing aged(over 6 months) or adult dogs is FULL payment at time dog is released. I realize its a free market and usually one establishes a level of trust with a breeder before they had over a hopeful without full payment. I can't speak for others policies but was a little wide-eyed that someone could purchase an adult of that caliber on a payment plan. Only wide-eyed as again, based on other close friends experiences, its been a cheque in full at time of purchase. Life is a continual live and learn experience.

Mr. Silva:

First I like to establish that puertorricans are U.S.A. citizens with all the rights and constitutional protection as the U.S.A. states citizens. Puerto Rico is a commonwealth of the U.S.A. Puertorricans share the same courts, postal office and currency with U.S.A. The fact that Mr. Silva named Mr. Louis Maurosa "foreigner" seems to be a racist argument with the intention of undervalue him as a human being and throw a shadow of prejudice. That’s not fair. That’s nauseus!!!!

I like you to know…that every year…a lot of puertorricans are victims of “reputable breeder” that send to us…pet quality dogs at gold prices…maybe people that think like you…that we are “Foreigners”. I have my own horror story about dealing with a North American Labrador breeder. But I don’t like to destroy people reputation and never did what you did.

Is not a first time in the breed history that surge an issue of contract breach. In this case, you and Mr. Maurosa signed a contract. This issue should be discuss between two of you and the divulgation to third parties of documents that were made with privacy expectative is a deplorable action and looks that was made with the intention of make all the possible damage instead of “help other breeders”. Your comments also were extended to Mr. Mauorosa’s wife; also wrote about that was Mr. Maurosas’s first Potomac, even exposed private conversations between Mr. Maurosa and you.

As I Know, you keep communication with other Labrador Retrievers breeder in Puerto Rico. Also…you have contacted the Puerto Rico Labrador Retriever directors. Are we talking about the Third World War? What I missed? We have no death penalty here, ok? We are civilized people.

Mr. Silva…the humane aspect is more important than money and dogs. I advise you not to create and international issue of your private affairs with Mr. Maurosa…and don’t point about “puertorricans” because this is not a racial or ethnicity issue.

That was your experience with Mr. Maurosa…fine, but not necessary other people experience.

From The Enchantment Island, Puerto Rico,


Cordially,


Jose Figueroa
Huntergreen Labs

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If you are going to attack me for my breeding practices please contact me directly and use your real name. I will be more than happy to have an adult conversation with you. You'll notice I disclosed all documents for public viewing as I have nothing to be ashamed of.

Further, while Dock's temperament was never a consideration for selling him, Kim and I felt the minor infraction, 3 years before his sale, needed to be disclosed. Dock was a wonderful representation of our breed and was an accomplished specialty winner. Dock was sold mainly due to his smaller size.

The reason why I posted this on my website is to protect and to educate. Nothing more and nothing less.

Jose Figueroa whats wrong whit you!Long way back you hate Maurosa you even stop talking to him like 3 years and now you are in his defense.What hapend? are expecting a free dog from Dock litter's.Yes you now Maurosa is expecting a cople a litter from him.Please dont try to make a big issue regarding Puerto Ricans Silve makes clear the point and he has good comunication whit a lot of us here in the Island.

How can you defend a guy that has send more than 6 checks whit out founds you now this is against the law and Maurosa also now because he works for the law.Please make youe real point

Breeder? Of what? Dwarf Labs??? I know who you are!!!

Is not proper to post here my opinion about Dock as a show dog, but beleive me (dwarf labrador breeder)I dont want any puppy.

No you don't I think you are gettin confused.But I now the real story.

i don't understand why people dosen't like that when the truth about someone in this case maurosa is made public they try to justified him.maurosa is in this problem because of his own actions.no one put him in this situation he did it himself.so is his problem so let him deal with of consecuences of his actions.

sooner or later people was going to know about maurosa actions.is so cool that finally came out.

Whats wrong whit this guy now one is asking opinions regarding Dock as a show dog.

Jose Figueroa is doing it again.yes again because it seems that the only way that he gets recognition is by wrinting crazy statements in forums.looks like he always try to cover his frustations with other peolple problems.

This is all about money (at both ends). I've seen Dock's pedigree and there is no way I can justify $5,000. I know nothing about his personality other than what I've read here, but it doesn't sound like he should be bred. I don't see much difference between the two breeders involved. Let's drop it.

What's whit all this whit stuff?

Could he be from Philly? Cheesesteak wit, or witout?

Wat's called ebonix on da web Missin' a toofus on a dawg is a baad ting

Were is the Link?What hapend