After all the incredible nastiness that has just occured, and all that lead up to it, it is probably time for Jill to shut the forum down. At least until the trolls crawl back into their caves and learn to be civil

No I don't think so.

What incredible nastiness?

If you are speaking aobut the Michael Silva thread please take a moment to see the larger picture. He is actually doing breeders an incredible service here. How else are we going to learn who NOT to deal with. Would everyone really be happier if the next time they contacted a breeder that they didn't know for a puppy and were told sorry, I don't know you, no puppy?

I for one appreciate Michael bringing it to our attention. I would be very unhappy if a pup or dog of mine went to someone this dis honest. Leave it all along, take what you want and leave the rest.

This is all very titillating and makes for great reading. But I thought that we all agreed that the Forum is a place for positive participation. I think that Jill must be away and not reading the Forum. She has never permitted this type of discussion before.
If this is a change in direction of the forum...then I say "let the games begin." It will be hard to hold back the flood waters.

Unfortunately it seems the rules have changed
on this forum! I don't enjoy it anymore..
Many of us have sold dogs and not gotten paid..
However....naming names SHOULD be a NO NO
in MHO. That is what E-Mail is for!

Why only e-mail? Why shouldn't all be informed if someone is a crook? These postings may have saved some dogs and owners. That's the old time way of thinking, whisper in someone's ear. That's called gossip, this is factual.

We had been talking about a seller that don't payed the Breeder, but no one speak about when a breeder sell a dog knowing that the dog is good for nothing. We know that this happend very often.

I think anyone considering buying a dog from the US (from other areas) should have their guard up when they are being asked to pay an astronomical fee such as $5,000 for a dog. I can tell you there is no way I would ever consider paying that much for a conformation dog here in the US. I've been involved in Labradors for fourteen years now. I've been burnt along the way by having deposits kept, paying co-owners and paying too much for dogs. I once paid $1,200 for a female puppy who turned out to be one of the nastiest dogs I have ever owned. Thankfully, my ex husband decided he liked her, she was spayed and lives with him. I think the last line in the contract I read between the breeder from Puerto Rico and the breeder here in the US would have had the red flags jumping up all over the place when it stated something about "temperment had been discussed." Not sure who to believe on the temperment issue, but just the fact that it had to be put into the contract says the asking price was out of line. Sorry, just my two cents.

There are dogs bought & sold for ten times that on a regular basis...all depends on what the dog is worth to both the seller and the buyer.

I know that if I had the cash, there are a dozen dogs out there that I'd pay upwards of 20k for...for that matter, if I was assured a whole litter, if there were straws for certain deceased dogs, I'd pay the 20k for just a breeding of (of course that's a IF I had the cash, which I don't.)

Different people operate on different levels...a finished champion should be worth more than a pet puppy...even if he does have a bad temperament (and I'm not saying that Dock has a bad temperament, or that he doesn't have a bad temperament.)

When you consider what everything costs,shots, health checks, hip xrays, elbow xrays, hopefully a cardiac check, Optigen test and then add the show fees, if the dog was shown.....and if the dog or bitch is a finished champion, what it costs(handling fees, show fees, or if no handler, motel costs, gas costs, etc) to get a Lab to that title, $5,000 is very reasonable.

>>a finished champion should be worth more than a pet puppy...even if he does have a bad temperament (and I'm not saying that Dock has a bad temperament, or that he doesn't have a bad temperament>>

First of all, it is very hard to tell if a puppy will end up a champion and secondly a bad temperment, finished or not, should be pulled out of any breeding program. Why waste money putting a CH on a dog with a questionable personality? It sounds like dog shows have "gone to the dogs." Geez!

Unless I am mistaken, conformation, obedience, agility, etc. is a hobby. Since when is it up to a potential buyer to pay for your hobby? Unless a bitch or a sire were so proponent that they were producing little replicas of themselves, $5,000 and up is too much. There are too many dogs in a pedigree to throw all your eggs in one basket on one dog. Makes no sense.

The point is, your idea of a bad temperament might not be my idea of a bad temperament. You might forgive things that I won't; I might forgive things that you won't. For example, I would rather have a slightly sharp (i.e. "alpha bitch-y") temperament than a dog that is too soft. You might rather have that softer temperament than a bitch that you have to correct for having alpha-bitch issues with her daughter. I might (and would) eliminate that too-soft dog from my program and keep the bitch; you might eliminate the bitch and breed the soft dog.

In the situation provided, I would think long and hard about breeding a dog that deliberately drew blood on a puppy. But I wouldn't think as hard about breeding a dog that was being harassed by his 9 month old son (for example--I don't know the details) while there was a bitch in season on the other side of the fence. All we know is that this dog layed out a puppy. We don't know whether there were injuries, how old said pup was, or the extenuating circumstances surrounding the incident, nor do we know if he continued to react that way towards puppies and other dogs, nor do we know that he even had the opportunity to redeem himself. Some people would consider a stud that growled at another stud within 3 feet of a bitch in season "temperamentally unsound."

So, without knowing the extenuating circumstance, we can't possibly make a reasonable assumption as to whether or not Dock should've or shouldn't have been bred, sold, etc. Even then, it is a judgement call that each breeder has to make. I think that if the ONLY circumstance this dog ever displayed aggression was in one incident with a puppy, it's admirable of the Silva's to even consider putting it in the contract.

Here is the AKC interpretation of a Labrador temperment...It's sad and frustrating how people will create "their version" of what a proper temperment, coat, tail set, angles, etc. should be and fashion a dog they call a Labrador.

True Labrador Retriever temperament is as much a hallmark of the breed as the "otter" tail. The ideal disposition is one of a kindly, outgoing, tractable nature; eager to please and non-aggressive towards man or animal. The Labrador has much that appeals to people; his gentle ways, intelligence and adaptability make him an ideal dog. Aggressiveness towards humans or other animals, or any evidence of shyness in an adult should be severely penalized.

So, if you have a Champion dog, who is proven, the last litter of a well known sire, who is 2-3 years old, you think that $5000 is too much for a dog to add to your breeding program? Heck, I think I would pay that if 1) Championship achieved 2) All Clearances and 3) Proven 4) Is exactly what I want for my breeding program to set it off and make it happen.

Also remember it takes 2 to make it work...if the seller asks for a price it is up to the BUYER to say yes or no...

>>Also remember it takes 2 to make it work...if the seller asks for a price it is up to the BUYER to say yes or no...>>

And this buyer would say, "No." Especially with a temperment clause written in a Labrador contract. I don't think so.

Jill doesn't have to shut down the forum she just has to require registration and names. It would all stop.

I think honesty and truthfulness are being miscontrued as nasty. The fact that temperment has to even be mentioned in the sale of a Labrador is inexcusable. Sorry folks, but it is not OK. I think these discussions should be allowed.