A big breeder that shows and does silvers near me is now advertising that she has dilute yellows and she is calling them Champagne? I didn't think that yellow could be diluted? The color looks like it is close to Fox Red but it is diffenitly not. Can anyone clarify any of this w/o starting a massive hate thread... Thank You!

Can you post a picture of the dog you are refering to?

I actually don't know how to, sorry! I will try and figure it out I guess. If you know the breeder i'm talking about, it is on her front page and in her available litters page under the litter... Pony and Justice. I hope this is more helpful and I will try and post a pic.

Considering there it's said that there isn't a dilute in chocolates, I can't imagine there is a dilute in yellows either.

Sounds like another gimmick to me.

Call it champagne, honey, vanilla, white, red, whatever...it's just a SHADE of yellow.

Another breeder is hawking "Cinnamon" puppies. Have you ever heard of such a thing? Whatever happened to Black, Chocolate, or Yellow? Are we breeding donuts or dogs?

Draw your own conclusions:
http://www.redrockranch.net/

If that isn't enough, try this:
http://www.redrockranch.net/labplannedlitters.htm

and this..
http://www.redrockranch.net/labavailablelitters.htm

and this...
http://www.redrockranch.net/labavailablelitters2.htm

Dian Welle

Yes the dilute genes (dd) can work on yellow just as it works on chocolate and black. The dilute form of chocolate is a mousey gray seen in Weimeraners and the traditional "silver Labradors". The dilute form of black is blue - blue Dobermans and darker gray Labradors often called "charcoal" by silver breeders. The dilute form of yellow is a muted fawn color seen in Poodles and Shar-peis and called champagne I believe in Poodles and cream in Shar-peis.

http://www.redrockranch.net/labolderpupsforsale.htm

Am I the only one that wants to email this kennel (and others like it) and just tell them everything that's on my mind. I see people every day capitalizing on our wonderful breed with these ploys of "unique color, etc" and it makes me absolutely sick to my stomach. I was at the vets office this morning and had a lady with her Labradoodle telling me how great she was and what a deal she got ($2500). Now keep in mind, she was there because her dog had awful allergies and severe hip dysplasia and surprise, surprise, the "breeders" phone number was disconnected!!
All in all, it just makes me sad :-( Sad for the dogs especially and sad for the true breeders that have to deal with these great statements by these fancy breeders of fancy colors.

I'm sure all of us have wanted to do the very same, Chantel, but it would all fall on deaf ears. If these people truly cared about the breed, they would have all their clearances done before they bred their bitches, and would make sure the studs they used had all of their clearances, as well. While we breed to improve upon something (coats, fronts, shoulders, etc.,) they breed to make a fast buck. It is disheartening, yes, but as long as there's a market for these 'designer dogs,' these people will continue to breed. All we can do is educate as much as we can, and hope that some people actually learn from us.

So long as a the dogs are registered yellow, black, chocolate they can be called any number of descriptive names. Kind of like paint colors & car dealerships where BLUE can be called a myriad of different names. One color descriptor might be preferable to another - depends on the buyer I guess.

There's a sucker born every minute...

The site doesn't say it breeds for specific colors intentionally (in fact disposition seems to be their main goal)and they do get clearances prior to breeding. I agree, these are descriptive names for the color of some particular puppies.

This particular kennel has done clearances, yes, but many others don't. Most Labradoodle people don't - and PRA is prevalent in both poodles and Labradors. Most of the 'silver' breeders don't - they don't care if they breed blind, dysplastic pups, as long as they make their $2500 per pup, they're happy. The rest is 'caveat emptor.' So sad.

Interesting that this thread crops up every so often about the same kennel - what gives if they are doing their clearances, registering their dogs & one of their breeding priorities is disposition?

on the first three stud dogs, using the names
they posted. Where are you seeing they do their
clearances? I checked on OFA.

Thank You Sharon, I should have known you would be the one to answer my question. Any idea why I was under the impression that Yellow couldn't be diluted? I was willing to bet the bank that I was right and thank God I didn't

Yes and Wondering you always show up with your dumb questions all the time without doing your homework and checking before you make your comments . Well here is one for you check out the information before you cast judgement on the forum on breeders that do what they have to do to keep the lines clean and healthy for the love of the labrador and no line crossing as this breeder has done over and over again.
Must be a friend of this one. Always at the defense of him!!

Good grief - I'm not casting judgment - just making an observation and noting a fact about this thread.

Ever since I was a kid I've always heard there are NO dumb questions! Carolyn when you say line crossing are you refering to line breeding? Is line breeding not a respected way of breeding? If so there are alot of us that are now in the wrong. And the breeder that was being posted about is a female? So where are your facts? I think you need to take a chill pill and if you can't help explain how Yellow can be diluted, then go start your own thread about menopause! There is NO need throwing around accusations about someone or calling them out on this forum. I can't see what Wondering said that was so horrible!!

Isn't that odd - I checked the OFA database too, and I couldn't find any of the dogs listed. But then I noticed the little "*" and it turns out that all of those clearances are prelims. You'll have to do a search on "prelimns" since that's how they spelled it. It's in small letters near the bottom of the page.

I am just clarifying that I am NOT in this thread. I have formerly gone by "Breeder In The Southwest". Too many times the color issue has come up and I plan on staying out of this one.
Thanks for listening,
Marci Sale

You would have been right; there is NO DILUTE GENE found in the Labrador breed. If it is there, it is because another breed has been introduced somewhere along the line in the dog's pedigree -- a breed that DOES carry the dilute gene, such as the weim.

You see what Sharon is saying? Dilute colors are there; this breeder mentioned in this thread is breeding them. But they aren't pure Labrador blood.

call me dumb but what are they doing that is so wrong?

You are dumb! (Well, you said to call you dumb... Sorry, couldn't resist. )

But seriously, what's wrong is to sell people an inferior dog at a higher price by claiming that there is something special about the color. And making false claims about the AKC recognizing the color, or that breeders kill off-color puppies, or that we are worried about market share. Meanwhile, the sire and dam don't have current health clearances. It's fraud.

Fraud is a little strong word number one! I can't speak for anyone else but I haven't lied about how the dogs are registered. They are either registered as Black, Chocolate and Yellow it is allowed for varied shades of Chocolate and yellow! As far as clearances, most of the so called silver people haven't had as good of mentors as the show people and don't know the importance of the clearances. Ignorance isn't an excuse but don't try and make it sound like alot of them are intentionally trying to screw people. Just for an update I have done 3 more OFA's(2 prelim's and one at 2yrs) the 2 prelims hips passed with elbows normal and i'm still waiting for the offical one. I don't have anything on my website like you are claiming! It's just like in the show world there are some breeders that are better than others and some that are more honest and some that are not. It's my opinion Hollie at Redrock Ranch is one of the best so called Silver Breeders out there and deosn't deserve any negative stuff from this forum.

Apparently you haven't hiding in a closet for a few decades! There is a dilute gene in AKC registered Labs(as I have them) and you have absolutely NO proof that it comes from a weim, just as I have NO proof it doesn't. So there is no need to argue about theories when that is indeed what they are. I read what Sharon was saying and I didn't pick up what you were picking up. It seems to me you were putting words in her mouth and that isn't fair. I think she answered the above question with class and was very informative.

You mean 'self-called' Silver Breeders, don't you Jack?

All in All, what would you accomplish by trying to call someone out for not doing anything wrong and having different beliefs as you? I think it would just make you look silly and petty. Now granted there are bad so called silver breeders out there but I have personally found out there are bad show breeders as well. This is America and some of the same things you are complaining about are what make it so we all can be FREE! Get over it and do the best for yourself as that is the only person you can truely make do something as we are a FREE society... Thank God.

NO, I do not mean self-called breeder! Are fox Red breeders called Fox Red breeders? Are they not truely selling yellows?? How about the peole that say they have white or cream, I don't ever see them being talked about in a negative light on this forum!

They're not normally talked about in a negative manner because they actually have purebred labradors. As opposed to the mix breed dogs you and other "dilute chocolate", "silver" are breeding.

get a life jack you are a PUPPY MILL, lets face it!!!

Another educated show breeder showing there true colors and hiding behind a fake name and making such life changing and valid points! I applaud you "disagree," I think you should get the award for the best post of the day!

Again... No proof and just more thoeries! They are chocolate just ask the AKC and Shelia Schmutz, she says they are a dilute chocolate!

hey jack do you breed puggles? or cockapoos?? try those and leave our black,yellow and wonderful chocolate dogs alone. we treasure our breed not make-up new colors and cross breds like the puppy selling mills do. STAY AWAY FROM woderful breed before you ruin it

Nope, I just breed the one breed that I love(Labrador's) for their personality and disposition and ALL the beautiful colors God gave us. I don't breed to get certain colors, I think you can tell that by going to my planned litters page, I try and only do breedings that I think will be an improvement and I have plans on keeping something back. So with all that being said, I guess your right I am a PUPPYMILL, along with most of you!

Are you suggesting Silver Breeders don't want to be identified as such? They coined the phrases 'Silver Breeders' and 'Silver Labradors' - advertised the rarity of the color and charged mightily for poorly structured dogs without clearances.

It was not until the LRC and the AKC became proactive on the issue did 'silvers' become watered down chocolates. Until then, their dogs' AKC registrations were marked 'other'. Can you explain what 'other' was?

I'm not trying to re-write history either! I don't prefer to labeled with anything other than a Labrador breeder. You guys get mad or defensive when people advertise with the desciptive term "Silvers" or what not. So if you don't want it being called that way... then stop calling it so! If you check my site you will not see the descritive terms over used and you will not see the word rare either! I'm working on my clearances and trying to always improve my quailty of dogs. I'm trying to be truthful as to what the dilute gene is and I even tell people that the show people believe the dilute gene comes from a Weim cross but the New Foundland carrie the same gene also and as of now there is No proof of any wrong doing! Whether you like it or not you will not get it both ways... You want there to be No such thing as a silver but also don't want people registering dilute chocolates as Chocolate. All I can say to you is TUFF!

As Far as, the other box we have had this discusion before... do we realy need to go back to it? I'm sure people that had white's and fox red's were takng advantage of that box as well, so lets not act like silver people were the only ones misuseing and taking advantage of this box. The fact of the matter is that silver people had NO control of getting the box put on or taken off the AKC form!

Riiight..........this is suddenly like deja-vu......any time now, a teenager will come into the Forum and start asking 'innocent questions' about color genetics in Labradors, and wonder why 'we can't all get along for the love of ALL dogs'......

If you really believe your Newf theory, Jack, maybe you can explain why we aren't seeing any of the other characteristics in the Newfs popping out in the Labs? Long, heavy coat; huge size; Landseer color pattern; other defining characteristics of the Newf???

Jack
I have never felt the need to jump in on these color threads but have read with interest. One of the things I have noted in the past is how you want to improve your lines and now that you "know" how important clearances are, you are doing them. Good on ya but can you explain the reasoning behind continuing to breed multiple litters whose parents do not have their clearances? You are aware that prelims can change and until you have finals done, you are still on the sketchy side of ethics? I'm aware that many breeders choose to breed on prelims and while that is not my choice, they are the ones that have to pay the piper if things go south. I would think that someone who is claiming to be trying to make great strides in their breeding program would hold themselves to a higher standard.

Jack is baaaaaaaaack!

Amen, Curious! Keep the subject on ethics. No matter what red herrings are thrown about by these folks, the bottom line is that they are breeding without clearances at all, or at best on outdated prelims. UNETHICAL. No defense possible except stupidity.

>Until then, their dogs' AKC registrations were marked 'other'. Can you explain what 'other' was?

I'm not sure exactly what year the AKC registration was changed but when the "Other" was in use it was mainly examples like "Black with white chest" "Black with white spot", etc. My first Lab was born in 1976 and his sire, a son of Super Chief, was "Black with white spot".
Can someone refresh us when the registration was changed to eliminate Other?

"I'm sure people that had white's and fox red's were takng advantage of that box as well, so lets not act like silver people were the only ones misuseing and taking advantage of this box."

But Jack, we don't know this to be fact... remember the AKC was called out to inspect a litter with what were Labradors said to be silver in color... that may have been the first attempt to register a silver color. Does anyone know if anyone actually successfully registration a so called "silver" Labrador using the (now-discontinued) "other" designation before the infamous AKC inspection happened?? People like to use this "other" argument in a debate, but we don't actually know if a registration was ever accepted by AKC using the "other" designation to EVER register a silver color for Labradors. Anyone want to contact AKC and try to find out?? I'm not volunteering this time!

Champagne, Silver, Charcoal?

What ever happened to the true Labrador colors of Black, Yellow and Chocolate? Is this some big marketing plan to draw people in?

I was talking about what Sharon(wig wag) said and how Wag the Dog interpetted to everyone what Sharon said. What in the world are you talking about...teenager, love for all dogs, innocent questions, etc.??? I do however hope we all have Love For All Dogs, no matter their color!

"Can someone refresh us when the registration was changed to eliminate Other?"

Gregg, I can't find it doing a search of the forum archives, but I'll see if I saved the email where the LRC responded to this question.... the response was posted here on the forum after asking the LRC for permission. Maybe someone else will have better luck searching the archives in the meantime.

A reminder... do not copy, forward or reprint the following... this was private email and permission was only granted to forward to the Wiscoy forum. I have found it copied posted without permission on one other forum in the past. Thankyou for respecting this.

Following credited "Info @ LRC".


The "other" color option on the AKC Application For Individual Registration of Labrador Retrievers was done away with in the late 1970's after the first investigations into "silver" Labradors were conducted by the AKC and LRC. This was done to enforce the AKC mandate that "silver Labradors" be registered as chocolate. It also had the positive effect of eliminating the various descriptive terms such as "charcoal", "jet", "champagne" and "golden" which some creative owners used for the blacks and yellows.

AKC also informs us that the "markings" designation has always appeared on all a
applications for individual registration. It is not to be used when registering Labrador Retrievers, even if the individual has (mis)markings (b/t, brindle, even gray). The Labrador Retriever should be registered using only the primary body color of the individual, even if it is chocolate for a "silver lab".

It is possible for the parent club of a breed to petition the AKC for a change in color selections on the registration application for individuals of a breed. AKC however does retain the right of final decision on such matters.

We hope we have answered to your satisfaction.
Thank you for writing to the Labrador Retriever Club, Inc.

That’s interesting, Gregg. My mentor's line carried a lot of white on chest – she would have died before registering their color as ‘Other’. LOL. Anyway, 'Silver' wasn’t registered as chocolate because these kennels claimed there was a 4th color. In some ways, they have gotten away with this ruse and have created a market for these dogs. I’m hopeful those old ‘Other’ pedigrees become a road map to pulling AKC registrations if a DNA breed test is found.

Oh Gregg, that reminder wasn't directed at you, but a request to the general readership.

And if anyone is feeling intriqued enough to ask AKC or the LRC, it would be interesting to know if the AKC issued registration papers with one of these "descriptive" colors, or was it more the case that if someone submitted an application with the "other" designation checked off and submitted "champagne" as the color, that AKC would automatically assume "yellow" and issue the registration for a yellow?
The way I read the LRC response is that eliminating the "other" designation did away with the practice of trying to register descriptive colors ... but what actually happened when people did try to use one of those other color descriptions for a breed that only recognizes black, yellow and chocolate? How did they actually issue the papers, what was on them in such a case when they were issued? Unanswered questions in my mind on this... just because someone tried to register using "charcoal" doesn't mean their papers were issued for a "charcoal".

My planned breedings:

Charlotte was just Prelimed at 22 months and was OFA hips Good and elbows normal!

Rocksie was done by her previous owner and she is OFA Fair and elbows normal!

Derringer was just done by myself and she is prelimed OFA Fair and elbows normal!

Pocono was OFA'd at 24 months and I'm waiting for the results!

Both males I plan on useing have at least been prelimed OFA good and elbows normal.

I do realize that there are more clearances and as soon as I can afford to spend more money I will be doing them. If this isn't the road to being more ethical I appoligize to you guys but please stay tuned for the next episode! I have spent almost $1000 on the last three OFA's(in one month) and can't do anything else just yet! I can't live up to everyone's expectations, I just have to be able to know that i'm doing my best and I keep doing better! As far as my standards, I feel everyone has room for improvement whether it is in clearances or simply dealing with others!

How come this always turns into something about me???

I agree Valerie that wasn't a fact, Sorry... but it seems others are aloud to use non-factual statements without being called out on it. It would seem to be more fair if everyone was policed when useing assumitions like when I choose to do so.

How can you continue to breed, though, knowing that you haven't done all of the clearances because 'you can't afford them?' Whelping litters costs money, too, but you seem to be able to afford those. If you really and truly cared about your dogs (and their offspring) you would have ALL clearances done BEFORE any breeding takes place.

"...but it seems others are aloud to use non-factual statements without being called out on it. It would seem to be more fair if everyone was policed when useing assumitions like when I choose to do so."

Oh Jack, I'm not even going there with you. I posed a thought and I did in a way so as not to insult, rant, or impose my views.

I am not the forum police either.

Yeah...Yeah, just like everyone of you do every clearance before doing a breeding. I have seen and know of dogs that were titled that people have bred over and over that haven't passed all or in some cases any of the clearances. I know alot of you know some as well. I haven't had a litter since last time I posted(January 14th) and probably won't have another for many months. So please don't act like i'm some kind of puppymill that has multiple litters each month and don't care for my puppies. Since last time I was on here I have made many strides and I have many more to come.

Again... why is this about me, isn't it a little off topic? Isn't this where someone says "Point of Order" if we were going by Robert's Rule of Order? I'm not the face for dilutes... i'm actually a very small fish who is learning from you guys NO matter if it is from mean post or nice ones.

I would like to offer my experience as a pet owner who did extensive research to find the "right" dog (and I did)...
I was one of those pet buyers who "happened upon" sites with the "silver and charcoal" labs advertised as "rare" and asking crazy prices too. It is sad that these breeders are preying on uninformed, innocent people looking for a great pet. I say people "Looking for a pet" because reputable breeders obviously are not interested in these "colors".

Not to mention that proper clearances are not being done. The average person has no idea to even look for these. Responsible breeders should, and do, educate the families purchasing their pups on all of these issues. Those of you breeding without proper clearances should be ashamed of yourselves. You know the potential disasters and heartache you are causing for these people purchasing your pups and you continue to do it anyway.

I wasn't aiming anything negative at you! I was just making the statement for everyone to see that i'm not the only one that uses assumitions to their benifit on this forum and i'm not affraid to admit it when I do. I think out of many people that I have interacted with you are one of the fair ones!!! So Valerie if I offended you in anyway... I'm sorry!

No problem, sorry for any misunderstanding.

Jack, the thread began about dilute yellows, not 'Jack Sanderson.' If you think it's about you, well, perhaps it's because you made it about you. Oh, FYI, ALL of my dogs have had their clearances, (hips, elbows, Optigen, CERF, heart, thyroid) and the bitch or stud to whom they are bred must as well. I know that is not your policy, but it is mine. If you had as sound a breeding program as you'd like us all to believe, you wouldn't be defending it on this forum every chance you got! JMHO

I was an uneducate and I guess unethical breeder until a few months ago. Thanks to this forum i'm doing my best to get on the good guys side, at least as far as clearances and ethics. If you go to my site i'm not one of those people you are talking about that you stumbled across(rare, etc.)! Saying that reputable breeders aren't interested in these colors is not a fair assumition. I have talked with show breeders that are interested in the dilute colors but are waiting for the right time to get involved. I guess you would the say just because they were interested then that makes them unreputable?

I'm not defending anything... I have said I need to do more! I have never said I have the most sound breeding program, so please don't put words in my mouth. Hopefully when I get caught up with my past(not doing clearances and truely not knowing about them other than OFA) then I can be in your shadow's and have everything done before I breed anything. As soon as I post anything on this forum it becomes about me so you need to realize that I don't make it about me,... you guys do!!!

Quite the contrary, Jack. YOU made it all about YOU.

Quite the contrary, Jess Wondering. YOU guys made it about ME!

Now the way I see it we can agree to disagree or we can keep up this childish bantor! But I do have one sugestion...why don't you back and read everything in thread sytle and you will see that I have just replied to what others have been saying

Jack, I am aware that you have replied to what others have been saying, but I don't see the relevance? What does that have to do with anything? Does that make you a 'good breeder' because you answered others' posts?

narcissist noun
someone who has too much admiration for themselves

translation: this thread is all about ME (Jack)

Not that this is totally relevant to the current thread, but I thought this article a little interesting which mentions color dilution related to Palomino colored horses and blue merle Shetland Sheepdogs.
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF8/826.html

Have you been reading the same comments I have?

I mean you no disrespect but, the breeders on this forum obviously disagree with the fact that clearances are not being done as well as the "silver and charcoal" color debate. I did visit your site before commenting the first time and yes, you do not use the term "rare". I guess as long as there is demand, people will continue to supply.

As far as the other breeders, I have an issue with clearances, if clearances are not being done properly, then they are wrong too. I visit this forum to learn as well. I hope you contiue to learn from the great breeders here. Good Luck

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dilutions.html

Thanks for passing on that link... looks like a great article and with pics too! Bookmarked it and going to read tonight!

Jack,

I just visited your web site. You have some nicely bred dogs and bred the right way, you should produce some nice puppies. I hope you can find a mentor that will truly help you with this.

Please give Bristol a hug and a cookie for me. He looks so sad in the picture!

Pocono and her puppies could also use some newspaper and/or towels/blankets in the pool. It makes it so much nicer for them and the puppies can get up on their feet easier.

A couple of notes on your pedigrees:

Daytona -- it is Blackwing Tally Ho (not Black Tally Ho) and it is Dickendall Davaron Amigo (not Daveron).

The dog that took the breed at Westminister in 2001 was Ch Ingelnook Instigater (not just Ch Instigater).

Jan

Jack made a statement earlier that "we" breed with out alot of our clearances also. Does he not realize that we are scared to death of not doing all the clearances. I don't breed before they are 2 years and have the OFA's. Have had them change on me from pre lims to 2 year OFA's. We do hips, elbows, hearts, eyes yearly, starting to get all, Optigen tested. Any thing we can do to keep a pup out of pain and a family from being in pain also. We study pedigree for years to try and find just the right match to improve what we have. He just does not get it. And of yes, we do believe in black, yellow and chocolate.

Okay I went and looked, wish I had not. That poor boy dog looks so sad. And the puppy have no blankets, towels, toys. I really don't know who would feel good about buying a puppy from here except another, SO CALLED, breeder out to make money on some pitiful soul who does not know better. Too, sad. Why not do it the right way. Does look like a couple of good dogs there to start off with.

Jan,

Excellent points! But somehow I don't think he cares. It is my belief that he is only after "the bucks that he can shove into his genes." or is it the "genes that can make him a few bucks." The good of the breed doesn't seem to matter much. JMO

anon for now

"Jack made a statement earlier that "we" breed with out alot of our clearances also."

Southland Breeder made a good point that we (responsible breeders who follow this forum) are scared to death to breed on prelims and we do clearances upon clearances religiously to make sure that we have done everything possible to prevent inherited disease... So true!!!

But Jack's counter argument that he's not the only one that breeds without clearances is essentially an adolescent response. Like a teenager saying "But everyone else cheated on the test!" Doesn't make it acceptable. Even if someone else breeds with no clearances or only on prelims, that doesn't change the fact that it is irresponsible and IMHO immoral.

It is just unforgivable to produce pups that may some day have hip or elbow problem. Just think of the poor pups that will someday suffer because of your ignorance. Jack you are saying you are doing your clearances. Well, DONT BREED UNTIL YOU DO!!!!
And shame on you for doing such to innocent pups.
And another thing, love your pups. Take Care of them and enjoy them. These poor pups you produce have no choice. How sad ..
Hopefully one day you wont suffer as I am SURE some of your pups have. Then again, everything that comes around, goes around.........

i propose a question?? what if ALL the long time breeders got together and recalled all there litters, i mean breeders that have been breeding for 40 or more years! did they EVER come across a silver puppy! i would like an answer?? write in please!! where did these silver pups come from jack?? did they just pop up out of a black or yellow, choclate litter. or did you and your buddies throw a weimie in with a lab??? i have NEVER heard a breeder tell me he has come across a silver in a litter, and i know many breeders, and have been to hundreds of shows. NO ONE HAS EVER SAID IT TO ME AT ALL !!!! do you understand what i am saying!!! lets stop all the excusses and face the TRUTH !!! STOP trying to create a new color its not correct to the lab standard, and i know that is what you are breeding for, right, the CORRECT breed standard, A.K.C.

Why don't you all just back off Jack already? YOU are making Jack the topic of this post. So vicious. You hurt your own cause and credibility. You all are not above reproach. With dispositions like yours I wouldn't want to buy a puppy from you.

he's the one breeding silvers not me or any other long time caring breeder, who lives up to the standard

This is exactly the type of breeder that I want to buy a puppy from. Informed and Ethical...what is the matter with that. I agree, a little off topic going after Jack, since there are plenty out there beeding "silver". They just don't happen to be here defending or "explaining" as Jack was. Unfortunately, he put himself out there.

Nothing wrong with being informed and ethical but to viciously attach someone that has a different opinion than your own is, in itself, not ethical. Your behavior does not conform to accepted professional standards of conduct. That is being un-professional and I wouldn't buy a puppy from someone so unethical. For those of you that can't get control over yourselves, you have bad dispositions and I would recommend that you not breed. God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason. (Use your ears twice as much.)

Do you even know how to stay on topic? I have never said I'm a top notch breeder, I have many clearances to get done yet! You said I have made this about me and I told you to go back and read that I have only replied to others. Now you are trying to say... that I'm saying... I'm a good breeder because I reply to your idiotic post??? I truely don't see how any of this is relevant and I have No idea what planet you are getting your info and ideas from? There is NO reason for me to answer your post any longer, so go ahead and ramble on as much as you want!

Jan,

Thank you for the corrections I will get to them ASAP! Bristol hates getting his picture taken and yes he does look sad. Hopefully he will be allowing us to get a better picture soon. If not it won't matter anyhow, I'm planning on retireing him as he is are first lab and has been marking his territory in the house. I hopeing getting him fixed will get him back to normal and we can go back to letting him have to run of the place.

I had shoulder reconstruction surgery recently and new pictures haven't been top priority Those pups are all in homes except the one and he is going home I think on Monday. Pocono would not have anything in the pool with her! I tried many different things and she would go crazy scatching and failing to the point that she had NO reguard for her pups, so you see what the end result was. Hopefully she will do better next time. She actually got mastist(sp?) at 1 week and I had bottle feed the entire litter. I taught myself how to tube feed and it was a very hard litter but very rewarding.

That last time I posted on hear those were another person's comments to a T, except of course for the pedigree corrections. Again Thank You!

Well said and I agree with you Nancy! There are No excuses and I have none for myself other than I didn't start out as well as some of you(mentors, dogs, etc.). I will be getting more clearances when I can afford it. If you don't like my answers TUFF!! I have not hid or squirted away from any critism and I have owned up to much of it. None of you people have been under the microscope that I am... and i'm fine with it! No matter what I do, it will never be good enough! Let's face it the only thing I could do is get rid of my dilute carring dogs and then alot of you still wouldn't let it die. So be it! I might sound a little juvenile in defending myself but there are some of you that are hiding behind fake names and should be terribly embarrased at yourselfs and your commments. So keep up the wise cracks and show the outside world what the Wiscoy Forum is all about!

Still waiting to hear your reply to the above query, Jack ~~ we do see lots of Weim characteristics in the dilute colors, but Newfoundland dog attibutes? Uh Uh. Actually, Newf attributes would improve the breed type of the dilutes; it might give them some bone, coat, tail, and darker eyes maybe.

I think you are barking up the wrong (family) tree with your Newfoundland theory.

Long Time Breeder, it is funny you ask that very question! I have indeed spoke with a show breeder that has produced what she called a taupe color(silver) out of her show breeding! And she said she told NO one as she didn't want anyone knowing her stud produced the color. Of course you won't believe me, so why even argue with you. It's fuuny she was thinking about breeding the dilues because she had produced it. When you guys hammered me so hard last time you scared her off. If you search Maria Neville in the forum Data base, you will see her under her alais. I have only seen three Weim's my whole life and two of them were at Pet Co doing a Weim rescue and the other was in the park. I don't try and produce colors, I breed for improvement and sometimes these beatiful colors just show up, isn't life just Grand!

You guys haven't seen enough silvers to even know what they truely look like or what your talking about. The majority of the silvers favor the field dogs and are they crossed with a Weim... NO I think not. It's not worth answering as you will still not believe me and I won't change your opinion. It's a No win situation! Yes, some actually have nice coats and some don't, some are thick and stocky and some are not, some have nice tails and some don't. It isn't much different than any other normal color of labs, they're are some that are better than others. You guys have only choose to look at the negative ones,... so be it! A theory is an idea... You or I don't know the truth and there is nothing we can do about it, but it is a common fact that the Newf has the dilute gene!

I do not believe that I attacked Jack. I simply responded to your comment "I would not want to buy a puppy from Breeders like you". Please re-read my reply, I want to buy a puppy from an Informed and Ethical breeder, that's it. This discussion has long left it's original subject behind. My behavior has not been disrespectful or rude. I am sorry if you took it as such.

You are all so full of ****, if you can't tell your dogs hips are good by the time they are of breeding age, then you need to get another hobby, I mean, you look at a dog EVERYDAY from puppy to breeding age and if you're blind to hip and patella disorders then you are in the wrong neighborhood, if when you look at a Lab or any other dog that runs and plays and it takes your breath away, that's a breeder....you are all into this OFA crap and it's like insurance...a racket...if the x-ray tech is having a bad day then your dog is at that persons mercy... Displaysia shows up in dogs very early and environmental factors can play a VERY BIG ROLL. I challenge everyone to do 3 seperate x-rays on the same dog and see if you don't get different results. There are variences in ALL colors and if a person describes a yellow Lab as banana colored...what business is it of anyone's and who are you to judge?? or laugh?? ALL dogs are "designer breeds" some have just been around longer...if everyone shared the views of not cross breeding there would have never been a Lab...do your real research. Everyone frowns on the doodle crosses....WHY?? and give me a GOOD reason. And before it's over with people are going to need thousands of dollars to be able to afford the licence to be a breeder. Dogs are "live stock" and untill breeders band together to get this point across the public is going to look at everyone that breeds as a monster. ALL other animals are sold as "buyer beware", get pre-purchase exams and if they don't then it's on them. How many times have you walked into a Pet Smart and seen people with these tiny little 8 week (56 days) old puppies dragging them in and out of the very place that has the most exposure to disease??!!....Sorry Jack...this isn't meant for you but as I was reading some of the things other breeders were saying I just had to jump in and put my 2 cents in and this is were I landed.

You have been rude AND snotty!!! The Lab does decend from the NEWFOUNDLAND...AGAIN, YOU need to do your true research. There are 5!! different types of Labs...can you name them??? bet not....do you know which line decended the chocolate?? bet not...I DO! and if you went back to that line you would see where the "silver" comes from...they have been around for years...they were just culled...don't believe me....DO YOUR RESEARCH!!!!!!

Where did everone go??? Doing your research???

I have put myself out here but not for nothing and I don't think it is unfortunate! Hollie who this thread was aimed at the beginning doesn't deserve the negative attention she gets. Everytime I post you guys change the subject and forget about her and hammer on me...it never fails!! I actually don't mind all the negative crap because usually twice as much good comes from it! Another person that is disgusted by the actions of some of you e-mails me and chats, gives me input and helps along my education. I have met alot of nice people from this forum and have deflected the attention off someone who doesn't deserve the negative attention. So overall it has been a success! Not to mention I do feel pressure to keep doing my clearances from all the negativity and it motivates me.

By the way....the white on a lab has a very old decention....and one of the first and best lineages...does anyone know where it came from???

Actually, a fellow by the name of Jack Vanderwyck feels there are 6 types of Labradors, the 6th type being a cross between 2 of the other types. They are the Holton Classic, the Brittany, the Donalbain, the Mardas, the Whitmore, with the 6th - the Lawnwood being an interbreeding of the Holton and the Brittany.
His theory and writings are no secret, including his thoughts on where chocolates descended from.

'Nuff research for you?? There isn't too much out there that anyone that has been in this breed for a lifetime for doesn't know about.

Very Good!! you were the only one that replied. Then you do know where the silver came from along with the "white" markings?

By the way...it's not his thinking as to where the silver originated. There is proof positive in writings and what was done with the pups...(culled).

"I'll take Obscure Labrador Theories for $600, Alex...."

I am more interested in the writings of reputable breeders from famous and well-known kennels and bloodlines, people who actuallyproduced the hallmarks of our breed, the dogs who made Labrador history. There are many books out there that index the beginnings of the breed. More people breeding Labradors should take the time to read them and educate themselves.

Are you asking for the reputable breeders name??

No I am not. I am talking about British and North American breeders that are well known authors of Labrador publications; they are known to everyone who knows the Labrador breed.

"I'll take rude, snotty, scared to show their true identity Labrador Retriever Breeder for $100, Alex....Who is "Still Waiting!"

It's a shame that wasn't a Daily Double, as it was an easy one!

You guys need to chill out.
Let me call a spade a spade, this should end the topic.

New things sell. People dont make new designs on cars, new restaurants, new anything for that matter, people do these things to make money, no if ands buts about it. Call it what it is Jack. I have no issues with you or the lady from red rock ranch on how you guys make your money. But why ELSE would someone breed a labradoodle (however you spell it), or a champagne lab, or silver lab? You come up with these 'catchy' names, to strike an interest.

Jack I commend you for defending your friend and letting everyone know where you stand. Thats good. But dont try to make it like you really care about the breed, or your friend. Just call it what it is. If you really cared you wouldnt breed with out doing all the clearances.

What are your goals? What is the red rock ranch lady's goal? To make a perfect silver lab? Be realistic. This topic has taken up the whole entire page because folks have gone back and forth arguing, but no one is seeking the truth.

How can you breed this beautiful animal and not afford to do the clearances for the goodness of the breed? If other breeders are doing it they are wrong too. And you KNOW WHO YOU ARE OUT THERE! Our society is impatient. Thats just how it is. People want to breed sale breed sale breed sale, until what do you know your breed has won the AKC largest registration number award. If you cant afford it, find you a couple labs, have them spayed/neutered and love them to death. You dont have to be a breeder to love labs.

To the other person that "been around it all their life" who cares about how many colors labs were. Dont try to justify the way you make your money. Like I said before, to announce you have "Silver" labs where you know the public outside of the Lab World knows only yellow, choclate, and black, you announce silver to sell those puppies. Dont think that people are so ignorant that they dont realize that.

Just like folks advertise 'white labs' or 'blocky heads' catch phrases to spark interests to sell pups and get paid. There is no need to put anyone down, but there is also no need to beat around the bush. People just need to say hey, I love labs, and I think I could breed these labs together or labs and poddles together, which will throw some silver labs or labradoodles and make a lot of money.

We are a capitalistic society,the US prides itself on this. It doesnt matter if we make a new breed of dog, make different colors of dogs, have farms where 100s of puppies are kept, doesnt matter. If it makes money, someone will try it.

What will happen next? Maybe someone will cross a lab with a horse so we can ride them and they can retrieve ducks.

I don't want to get into a pissing contest with anybody...but really, I followed this thread all evening and can't believe the way you people talk to each other. "My dog is better than your dog". NOW COME ON, if you can't see hip dyspasia in your own dog then you need to move onto another hobby. OFA?? I have read on here several times about readings being different from one exam to the other...well, you'll have that when people are reading pre-lims and x-rays. You people need to be VERY careful when having your dogs x-rays read.

That's exactly who I'm talking about.

Ok, please hold on for a second. Please go back and check the series of comments here, I have not said a single thing about NEWFOUNDLANDS. Nor have I spoken on the issue of "silvers" being culled in the past. That was another poster. It is here, but I was not the one initiating that discussion, nor did I comment on it. I am not one of the people here debating with or against Jack. I understand that this has become a very emotionally charged issue, but please make sure you are directing things at the right people.

You're right...I just jumped in there and happened upon your posting....I am sorry.

Jack, sadly, right now you have become the target of quite a heated and emotional subject. "putting yourself out there" meaning actually standing up and saying "yes this is what I do, and this is why." It is unfortunate that it has gotten this out of control. Thank you for your honesty, and good for you, get those clearances.
Have a good night.

It is ok. I understand that this is a very touchy subject that has quickly turned ugly. I guess with so many people with such strong feelings, that can happen.

I agree with most everything you have said except I do care and that is why I am getting my clearances. Should I wait to breed my dogs until I have all my clearances...yes! My goal is to produce nice quality labs of all colors with great dispositions, with that being said yes the perfect dilute lab would be the ultimate accomplishment. I have spent alot of money bringing in better quailty dogs and trying to improve...Plain and simple! I bought the following last year for breeding, Boatie cost me $4000(not counting shipping) and Rocksie cost me $2500 pregnant($2000 for her and $500 the stud fee...not counting shipping) and she was shippped a week before her due date and miscarried! She hasn't produced but 2 pups out 4 heat cycles. I also traded for a couple of nice dogs. I'm stretched out financially and i'm doing my best. If it's not good enough for some of you sorry... it is what it is and call me what you want! There are many worse breeders than me and that is not an excuse just a fact. There are different levels of breeders i'm not at the top and for sure not at the bottom! I hope one day soon, other than the color issue, to have a 100% reputable program in most of your eyes!

Going back to some of the earlier posts on this thread and the criticism of Jack in regards to breeding on prelims -- now I know my share of "reputable" breeders that do this and it is ok for them? I have personally bred on prelims that were done at 18 months (which if you believe OFA are VERY accurate) but I would not do it again. But only because I think that most bitches are not mature enough until well over age 2 to whelp and raise a litter.

I don't agree with all this dilute gene breeding crap but I will applaud Jack for doing clearances and wanting to do more.

I know....I can't belive the way people talk to each other...just infuriates me. This is my first time on this site...was hoping for home remidies, tried and true methods for things we all go thru with our pups, ideas...things like that ya know? I've raised Labs for years, my father raised them and my grandfather raised them...in fact, my family brought one here from "across the pond" and is in almost every picture my Gr, Gr, Gr Grandfather is in. She was a small girl with a mouthful of bird in EVERY pic! Had the bolo feet and very "fieldy" looking.

Don't give up on this forum. Obviously, by our own exchange, it has gotten way out of control and totally off subject.
There are many great people here who can answer your questions. I am fairly new here too. We just need to remember what brought us here in the first place

You obviously don't enjoy my style of wit. I'm sorry if you are so intimidated by knowledge.

You're right again...when I see things going that way again I'll just back out of it. Everyone has their oppinions as do I. What is your forte in the wonderful world of the Labrador?

You know you are a sicko!!!
Why dont you take your well bred Labs into the conformation ring......if your doing such a good job.
or maybe your not.

You can put my Labrador breeding program under the microscope, Jack. The reason nobody talks about it is because there's nothing to talk about! You are under the microscope because you continue to breed litters without clearances. Yes, you should stop breeding until you get final clearances on hips, elbows, CERF, and Optigen.

And your statements don't add up. On one hand, you say you are short of cash, on the other hand you have $6500 free cash to spend on more dogs.

Why don't you put your so called wonderful silvers is the conformation ring if they are truly a lab ??

Jack - Please put your silvers in the show ring ... why don't you?? Why haven't we seen you there.... WE would ALL love to meet you !!!

I don't carry if he has his clearances or not these flipping dogs should have balls intacted or and females should be spayed !!!!

Jack, I think you really do want to do things right. Just don't want to give up on what must be a money maker. Want you to know that just saying am doing pre lims is just not getting it. There is so much more to breeding these wonderful dogs. Number one we love them. They and their health comes first. To improve with each breeding. To not just breed. We are all so dedicated to this breed. Thats why all the clearances to try and keep the pain away and the Labrador a Labrador. We already have way to many mutts out there. I think breeders would help you and think we had done something good to get you out of that situation.

I actually taught it was terribly funny! When I read it I laughed out loud and woke up my 18 month old son. So I had to shoot one back at you! Your style of wit was Great!!!!

You have proved my point as it doesn't truely matter what I do! You don't care about the health of the dogs or clearances, you just care that they don't have the dilute gene! I haven't even bred any of my new dogs into my program yet. So as far as showing up in the ring you guys have made me feel so comfortable on this forum I think that is the top thing on my list to do...right up there by going to the dentist!!

This isn't a money maker for me! It is a passion!!! The last litter I didn't even make any money! I hope to at least have a hobby that pays for it self I think that is a fair wish. If it was about the money I would have bred a silver to a silver last time and I would be planning on doing it again. Instead I did and will be doing improved breedings. I agree I need to have all my clearances first. But sometimes there are circumstances which most of you wouldn't know about or even care about in any case that dictate what path you are to go down. I have haven't bred anything since last time we all had this discussion a few months ago. I have spent $1000 on OFA's lastmonth and plan to do more. Hopefully I get more done, if not...Sorry! You don't know my situation and to most of you it really wouldn't matter! This is not excuse's just the facts! I wish a had a couple thousand extra dollars laying arround so I could get them all done. Or better yet I wish I would have known about the importance before I got behind!

Is that really true? How argumentative that you are on this forum you would think you would go to a show to prove a point !! Or is easier to hide behind your computer ??

Hmmm.... Or maybe you know that your dogs would be excused from a conformation show and you would be laughed at just like your being laughed at on this forum !!

So entertaining...

I don't see how the money I spent on dogs before I ever got on this forum and started to realize the importance of clearances is relavant to me my statements not adding up? However, the money I did spend last year came out of my retirement, which I had to cash in early(i'm 29 yrs old) do to an arm injury at work 3 years ago. Which is the same reason I just had shoulder reconstruction, hopefully on the road to being fixed so I can go back to work. We are on a tight budget and I have 2 kids(another on the way)! The dogs are the only thing that has kept me sane over the past few years and they have given me an outlet from the transition from Electrician to being a stay at home Dad. When I got into the dogs I promissed my wife that they would be self sufficient! I cannot and will not go back on my promiss to her and put my family in jeopardy because some of you don't like it that I don't have all my clearances! Is it right for me to breed without them...I guess not! But I not in a postion to 100% change my ways currently! If you don't understand my circumstances and don't realize i'm trying your never were gonna see anything other than a color any how and we are just argueing because you just don't ike someone you don't even know!!!!! I'm the guy that stops and helps you with your flat tire, opens the door for you at church, picks up that box of rice for you that you dropped at the grocery store and takes this all very serious and wants to get my clearances done! Is this the way you guys treat all BYB breeders trying to ge legit?

I'll meet anyone of you in person!!! This not about a fear at being laughed at, as I'm one of the only ones useing my real name. I have tried acting with as much class as possible and still entertain the ranks! If you want to see a silver in the ring it will only be a matter of time. I truely don't think I have one that compares to Boatie yet! I had one that was pretty close but he didn't pass his OFA(that is actually 4 ofa's I have done... I forgot about that one). I have a few pictures of him and Boatie and I'm willing to share them! E-mail me with your name and website and I will forward them to any one of you! I don't know how to properly stack, so I guess you guys will have another thing to laugh at my expense, but again I don't mind putting myself out there as that has been getting me quite the education.

As I mentioned before, I come here to learn. I have the great fortune to own 2 chocolates. I have loved labs my whole life and finally have the time and energy to devote to these wonderful dogs. I did more research than the average person purchasing a pup. Many times, people stop me and ask many questions about my dogs, I am amazed at how little most people know. All I can do is suggest they do the research and I offer any info that I have learned and believe to be correct. I don't for one second know all, that is why I come here to learn.

I try to contribute my opinion from an outside perspective that is maybe not as emotional. I have great respect for the breeders on this forum and value the info they share
Have a super day!

Jack really sorry about the last post. Wow. But we all have storys. Some I'll have to say alot worst than yours. Some are lucky. Alot are older and retired. Budgets. Have a litter, money goes right back into the dogs. Thats the only way. You don't make money. You hope to keep up. Please don't make Boatie have silvers. Find him a nice girl, all clear and go from there if he is sound and has had no problems showing up.

DON"T YOU UNDERSTAND WE THE BREEDers AND THE L.R.C. HAVE NOT ACCEPTED THESE COLORS ,SO WHY WOULD YOU BREED AGAINST THE STANDARD AND THE NATIONAL CLUB AND THE A.K.C.?? answer: because we are selling a fancy product to make money not compete and better the breed. thats what we do at shows, evaluate breeding stock do you??

The problem, Jack, is that you have bred litters without any KNOWLEDGE of these clearances. There is SO MUCH homework to be done BEFORE any breeding is even thought of! Optigen, OFA hips and elbows, just to name a few. Do you know how heartbreaking it is for a family to have to live with a blind or dysplastic dog? The expenses they will have to incur, just to keep the dog 'comfortable?' Breeding without these clearances, simply because you are going through some tough times and 'can't afford it' is reprehensible, at best! DON'T BREED if you can't afford the pre-requisites to breeding. No one breeds to make money, we do it for the love of the breed. Can YOU say the same, honestly?

Hi, Jack

I haven't been involved in these discussions before, but I've been in the breed for 30+ years. I'm not a well-known breeder and never had a big winner, although I have bred and owned some champions and several dogs with advanced field titles.

I have some bad news for you- I never make money on a litter, much less on my entire hobby of showing, field training, etc. If you want a hobby that allows you to break even, I don't recommend dog breeding, especially if you want to do things right and to be considered an ethical breeder. My first homebred champion took over 50 shows to finish, many professionally handled, and produced only one puppy in at least five breedings. I thought I had lost three generations leading up to this champion. I don't know how much money, certainly thousands of dollars. But fortunately, I have a good career and could afford the loss, because that one puppy became a champion, all owner handled. During this same period I was having trouble getting litters from my other two girls, one a champion and the other a MH (thousands of dollars to get that title, too). If my hobby had had to pay for itself, I certainly would no longer be here. And, no, none of these breedings were done on prelims, either. You've had one lost litter- an expensive one, true, but still only one. During that bad period I lost two small litters at birth and had at least 6 that didn't take. Since then I've saved two singletons with C-sections, including the champion I mentioned above. But I got no payment for those litters, either, because I kept both puppies. This can be an expensive, heartbreaking hobby.

Jack I appreciate the pickle you are in, so I will give you some advice, for what is worth.

You have some girls that are OFA fair on prelims, right? If you really want to get somewhere, you might want to spay and place those girls. That will give you a little cash flow to keep do final clearances and optigen testing on the rest of your dogs. I dont' see an OFA fair girl as an asset in the situation you are in, becuase I think it would be hard for you to find a stud owner who has a dog you could use who would have a few generations of good and excellent behind him and most importantly, elbow clearances behind him. I think you will be riddled with orthopedic problems for a few generations and it may be best to cut your losses and find girls from another line where clearances have been done on at least parents and grandparents. You can't keep using Boatie or you will breed yourself into a corner.

You offer a guarantee on hips and elbows and that is good...think about what that may start costing you in the future if you continue to breed OFA fair girls. Yes it is a pass, but there are going to be some ortho issues there for a few generations until you breed up.

Many of the breeders on this board have started out with less than spectacular dogs. Many more have had to alter and place more than a few dogs before they actually got one who passed clearances and was a good enough dog to pass his or her genes on. This costs money...a LOT of money!!

The junction between what made us a reputable breeder vs. a back yard breeder, was in recognizing this and spaying these dogs and saving up for dogs that would contribute to the breed. You have a nice boy in Boatie and some day a nice bitch might be brought to him and you could get a puppy bitch from that litter and move on from there. Or you could save your money, start participating in the breed and giving back by joining clubs, spending money on entry fees for hunt tests or obedience titles, and then when you have paid your dues, a breeder with good dogs will sell you a nice bitch who could really get your kennel off the ground.

I think that is why many are upset on this board...they have paid their dues with a lot of heartache and a lot of money. If you really care about the breed and it's future, sometimes you just need to cut your losses and start over. Many, many of us here have, believe me

JACK !! Miami Valley is right around the corner. Will we see you there ?

Being a new breeder I have stay out of all the previous post about silver. But I can not take it any longer.

Jack,

You have told so many lies. In an older post Alyne said she sold you Boatie for $2500. Now you are saying that you paid $4000 plus shipping. Your early post also said nothing about Rocksie being shipped to you pregnant. I can not believe anyone would ship a dog due in a week. That is just cruel.

You said that you are not working so why would you buy dogs? They are not for us to make a living off of. They are NOT supposed to be "self sufficient". They are supposed to be a loving and loyal companion.

Everything about you screams unethical, money hungry, jerk. If you really loved this breed you would not breed weim/cross. Which is what a silver really is. You just do not want to see that because then you could not sell them for outrages prices.

For some reason you think you can have your cake and eat it too. If you want to be respected in the lab world and really want to improve and help this breed. Than you need to spay/neuter your weim/lab crosses (I refuse to call them anything else). And then get all clearance on your good dogs and work from there. You say this;

My planned breedings:

Charlotte was just Prelimed at 22 months and was OFA hips Good and elbows normal!
Rocksie was done by her previous owner and she is OFA Fair and elbows normal!
Derringer was just done by myself and she is prelimed OFA Fair and elbows normal!
Pocono was OFA'd at 24 months and I'm waiting for the results!
Both males I plan on useing have at least been prelimed OFA good and elbows normal.

When checking OFA, Rocksie only had hips done. It does not show she had elbows done which means one of two things. Either they were not done or the box was check to not show result if both did not pass.

Why are you breeding Pocono again this spring? She just had a litter. You should skip a season. Why are you breeding these girls before they are 2 and without any clearances? Why because you want the money? Because you told your wife that they were self sufficient. Quit lying to yourself and us. Where are the eye clearances?

You wonder why we get so mad. It is because you and your friends are ruining our wonderful breed by breeding this Lab/Wiem crosses. Please just go away and take your mutts with you.

Yes. This is the kind of stuff I like reading. Drama. Newbie Sort of - bring more please.

Jack you even called yourself a BYB, "Is this the way you guys treat all BYB breeders trying to ge legit?"

C'mon on now. I wonder if Mary Roslin Williams called herself a BYB in the beginning. At least you were being honest.

The talk of coming out even is a red flag raiser. I have met your type, like I said earlier thats what you do to provide, thats what you do. Really why would you breed a silver lab? Or a weim/lab cross as my distinguished colleague put it? We have a enough bad yellows, blacks, chocs, in this country, why bring in another color?

It is really a common sense question. If you care about the breed so much why would you want to change the standard? Like I mentioned earlier, new and/or different sells. Plain truth.

I cannot believe the lack of professionalism in these posts.

anonymous, what are you a silver and champange breeder as well?

Or perhaps 'Cinnamon?'

Alayne can say what she wants... I have e-mails, bankrecords, contracts and recipts to back up everything I have said! And the bit about shipping a week before Rocksie was due...believe it! I don't have an excuse other than stupid and I didn't know better, at that point I had only one lab litter!! Now I know alot you will believe what you want, but I know the truth and have proof to back me up. Don't call me out on this issue again on this forum w/o contacting me personally and then I can share what I have!!!

You can say how and what the dogs are suppose to be for yourself, but I think wanting or having my dogs being self suffiecient(finnacially) is a valid goal. Granted I have to feed them, play with them, love them, take them to vet, and all the other things they can't do for themselves.

If anyone has ever been in the workmens comp system in Missouri you always believe that next few months you will go back to work. And the truth is I have had 3 years of waiting, 2 surgeries, hundreds of therapy visits and all the time hoping and wanting to believe that I will be going back to work next month. So looking back would I have done things differently...yes! I think there are many of us that can say the same things about our lives and decisions.

My wife and kids don't see a jerk! They see a loving husband and father who stays home with the kids makes dinner and does laundry, likes drawing house and kennel plans(dreaming), playing with his dogs and reseraching pedigrees and networking!

I don't believe they are crossed with any DAMN thing how many times does that have to disscussed! There are only theories and none us of know the truth. Do you even know what I sell my dogs for? You know nothing about me, other than what you make up and try and pawn off as truth like a i'm some kind of monster! When the truth is alot of you guys have clearances on your dogs but you act like monsters to humans.

I never even checked the OFA site, I just trusted! So if indeed what you are saying is true then it is just more proof that I made a huge mistake trusting!

I'm breeding Pocono agian because I her raised her last litter! When her puppies were 1 week of age she got mastist(sp) and I had to seperate them. My vet said he didn't think she would get Mastistis again but we going to really keep a close eye and if she does then she will be petted out. My vet has seen her to do her OFA and he said she was able to be bred again!!! If that isn't good enough for you sorry! I 'm sure his education validates the decision and i'm not the only person that has done a back to back breeding on this forum. As far as all the clearacnces that has been beat to death! I will be trying to get as many clearances as I can! I don't lie to anyone...I use my real name and tell the truth even when it probably doesn't show me to be in the best light.

You get mad because you immature and childish! I'm not ruining any thing... I'm a small fish and you guys know that. Your mad at me because I have nice dogs and I'm going to breed the first Am/Can Ch into the dilutes! That is the truth plain and simple just addmit it!

Maybe somoeone brought it up, but there is so much BS here that I could not read thru it all, so if this is a repeat sorry!

I went to a course recently by Carmen L. Battaglia Ph.D. who stated that they have a DNA test now that can test for breed of a dog, so basically a test that will tell if these silver labradors are crossed with weims somewhere in the pedigree. I didnt get all the details, so I do not know how many generations it goes back. But I would suggest that silver breeders look into this and contact Carmen for more details on where to find the test. That could solve everthing

I never said anything about changing the standard that is news to me! Another example of people putting words in my mouth! The standard is fine right now as it is, it allows for varying shades of yellow and choclate! I breed dilutes and all the colors because I can and because I love labs!

Maybe since you guys are so concerned with my dogs you guys could take up a collection to DNA breed test my dogs and prove they are or aren't labs! If they are labs you recognize them and if they aren't I get rid of them and denounce them publicly, repay the 7 families the money they spent with me, since they were under the impression they bought Full Blooded Labs. Now I beleive it isn't going to show anything unless the supposed lab/wiem cross was recent( I believe there was no cross). I spoke with the company doing the test and they said the dilute gene could lay dormant for many many generations! I asked if 50+ years was reasonable and he said it was possible. Only the perfect breeding would bring out the dormant gene. So in my opinion if we do it, I will be getting a DNA cert saying my dogs are Labs.

So I should be thrown in jail for breeding w/o clearances? There is NO pre-requisites to breeding! That is the problem! You guys don't want any government regulation but then you want to B*tch at the people that don't know better like they are the monsters and they are equally as bad as the puppymills who don't give a sh*t about they're hundreds of dogs and the dogs don't get any love, treatments or attention! Save it for the choir and make up your minds what side of the fence you are on! I can honestly say I love the breed or I would have picked a different one!

Jack, please don't take this as an attack. It is absolutely not. Stop this nonsense going back and forth. You are wasting precious time and energy fighting this battle. It is obvious that there are many opinions here, agree to disagree and move on.

You have said yourself that you cannot change other peoples opinions of you, and you are determined what you believe is acceptable, so be it. This is getting nowhere going back and forth. JMHO

Jack, are you possibly not aware that there is no such test, and that frankly it's as close to impossible as it gets? As it is, the DNA of any breed of dog next to that of a wolf is almost identical. Trying to pick out whether a dog is a Lab or (say) a Lab mix based on DNA alone is totally impossible, as far into the future as we can see.

Also you may want to consider the fact that today's Labrador Retriever did not descend from today's Newfoundland. They both originated near the St. John's Bay area from various strains of local water dogs, among whom were all types...including (but not limited to) some black Pointers and even water dogs from Portugal (likely the ancestors of the Portuguese Water Dog). Out of this mix also came the Chesapeake Bay Retriever. All of these breeds have changed considerably since then, so even if the Newf did show the dilute gene, it would prove nothing about the genotype of the Labrador.

Just as you would have us do our research and not make blind accusations, I think you owe it to yourself to do the same and not make assumptions based on others' theories. I'm sure your dogs ARE wonderful and friendly and healthy. For their sake, then, I think you would be only too ready to look deeper into where they came from and what breeding decisions are the most responsible ones.

Can we please talk about miniature Labs now?

Oh, you mean miniature silvers?

You are all too much on here. Does Jill have to pay for bandwidth of bull**** here? Gosh everyone. Settle down a bit. If this is ignored, it will all just go away. Some that have been professional in the past, have some new colors coming out here.

If you build it, they will come. This thread has been built up so large now, that many are coming out in such a hideous fashion.

Time to close up the thread- end it because it's just a bunch of bickering back and forth now. Nothing productive coming out of this one anymore.

There, I feel better now.

keepthefaith,

I'm refering to "genetic breed profiling," it was a previous thread on this forum. The web site is:

http://www.metamorphixinc.com/products2adetails.html

It was brought up by Nancy and I called and spoke with the geneitst and I didn't make anything up or assume anything in my last post other than I believe that my labs would come back as labradors based on there DNA

The topic of making money keeps coming up. How much more than $1,200 are the silvers going for since that is pretty much the typical price for standard color pet pups are going for across the country, especially east coast, when that topic was brought up previously?

I too have purchased dogs, non-dilute, over the past 5 years to the tune of many thousands of dollars that I really couldn't quite afford from reputable breeders that have been in labs for years and have done my research on lines and clearances, etc. Of 5 dogs that I purchased 2 OFA'd mild, 1 OFA'd fair, 1 had cataracts, 1 had EIC (exercise induced collapse, do you think I got my money back or even a replacement pup from any of these 5 "reputable" breeders? All I heard was "we've never had that in our lines" Hmmmmmmmmmm, I'm definately in favor of doing clearances but that is not always the road to perfection either. By the way, my $250 pet girl now 10 years old never had a sick day in her life.

Starting a new thread on this and maybe try keep it educational.

Since we had good luck getting answers promptly from the LRC on another related question in the past, I thought I'd give this one a try.
Just sent this email:

Before the "other color" designation was done away with in the late 70's, if someone applied to register a Labrador as "charcoal" or "champagne".... what did AKC send back for the color on the registration papers for that dog?? Did they automatically assume charcoal to be a black and registered the dog as black... did they automatically assume "champagne" was a yellow, and issue papers for a yellow? If someone applied to register a "silver" using the other color designation before the "other color" designation was done away with, how was the dog registered... was there ever AKC papers issued showing them to belong to a silver?? I realize after the infamous AKC inspection of that litter with silver coloring, the mandate came down to registere them as "chocolate", but before that time... were there ever papers issued for a silver Labrador using the "other color" designation?"


If I get an answer, I'll ask for permission to copy and share.

I don't have "silvers". But you have to think about something. How many people out there have blond haired, blue eyed children and both parents are dark haired and brown eyed? or red headed? Like it or not a Lab originally started as a "mixed" breed and somewhere, sometime it WILL show up. I have gone to most of your web sites...the ones that post theirs, and you can see Chessie in some of them. It won't be traced because someone put Lab papers on a litter of Lab/Chesepeake Bay Retriever. How are you going to trace it. Most won't pay the expence to verify the DNA tests that have to be done in order to breed, then you have to be able to read them. You are all in pissing contests, for what? to help the breed or boast, I think boast. AND I've said it before, you can and do make money on your puppies...I've been to the sites, read the "guarantees", actually, it covers your butts, not the clients...ALL OF THEM, then if the puppy is faulty they have to give it back or put it down??? Why can't you just ask for proof of spay or neuter, hold the offer open untill they feel the need to have a replacement puppy and let them keep the defective puppy...WHY?, because you bank on them being attached to the puppy! and 9 out of 10 times they are attached and have already paid a vet to tell them their hips or elbows or eyes are bad and won't pay ALL of the fees to have OFA, their vet, then your vet, jump thru hoops, jump up and down and stand on their head. but you don't do it for the money...right. If someone has to call you and give you that kind of news then chances are it's breaking their heart. THAT'S HOW BREEDERS GET THE BAD RAP.