I have been reading the posts on this forum and others for quite sometime and have recently changed my thinking about breeding to a Fair. I used to think that was a bad idea and tried to use only Goods or Excellents but really convincing arguments were made about how Fair is still a pass and it is bad breeding to disregard a potential Sire or Dam because of a Fair rating on hips. There are so many other things to consider when choosing a stud.

Now I recently read a post where someone suggested spaying any bitches who prelimed Fair and I am confused. I thought that Fair was a pass and as long as you bred a Fair to a Good or Excellent there was nothing wrong with that.

I have a bitch who is a Good and want to use a stud that is just right for her in so many ways but he is a Fair. I thought this breeding would be safe but now I don't know. Should I keep looking and try to find another suitable stud who is Good or Excellent instead?

My worry is what was said about spaying a Fair because you will end up with "orthopedic problems for several generations". Is that true? I was planning to keep at least one puppy from this breeding but it would be pointless if I have a good chance of having orthopedic problems to clean up because I bred my girl to a Fair. I certainly don't want to breed that INTO my lines! Please advise.

I think it is personal decision. I would not breed to fair. I want excellent. That is just my choice.

Unfortunately one of the very real dangers of this forum is that ANYONE can give advice. And there is a lot of poor and incorrect advice given.

The most important thing for a breeder to understand if hips look fair is WHY? Is positioning poor, quality of xray over or under exposed (they are doing it digitally now so that presents another set of problems), are actual arthritic changes present? To recommend spaying a bitch because she prelimed Fair is just ridiculous if you don't know the facts.

Don't listen or be influenced by most of what you read here. So many posters don't have a clue.

Yes, this forum is just for idea's of everyone and not gosple! But, a Fair Hip is Average, what is wrong with average? Allot of fair's will produce excellent, you have to know the lines of the bitch and know the lines of the stud.

I would check the potential stud's vertical pedigree on OFA. How are all the other dogs that are behind him rated? Are there mostly Good and Excellent ratings? Check this stud's get (if he has any.) How are they rated? It's true; there is so much else to consider. Good luck with whatever you decide.

I said.... "That is just my choice"

What anyone else feels does is their own choice is all I was saying. Was not advise.

If your bitch has never been bred before, I would go for a Good or Exc sire and see what you get . If you get good hips from that, then consider the Fair sire. There are lots of studs to choose from.

A fair is a passing score. I have a fair stud dog and I'm quite proud of him and his get. He has about 50% of his OFAed get rated excellent and one in Holland that is A rated hips = to an excellent which is not only judged by a OFA view but a Penn Hip type rating as well.

I know good and excellent dogs that can not move properly and are in my oppinion lame. But OFA gave them a passing score so they are being bred. Just because a dog got a passing score at 24 months doesn't mean he/she is sound or will produce sound pups.

To each his own but if you really think this boy is right for your girl then go for it.

Like others have said check his verticle pedigree check his get. A dog is only as good as what he/she produces.

I think I was the source of the confusion.
I don't have a problem with fairs either, but I was posting to Jack Sanderson on the hijacked dilute yellow thread. I thought in his particular case it would be prudent to spay his fair bitches because

1. They were prelim fair, not fair on finals
2. Jack is in the unfortunate position where he will likely (hopefully because of his affiliation with silvers) not have the luxury of dealing with reputable breeders who have a few generations of cleared stock behind the stud he would be forced to use. It is one thing for us to use an OFA fair dog because we have the luxury of researching potential studs and their pedigrees. Jack will be limited in the studs he can take his girls to, and I'd be willing to bet that a lot of the immediate ancestors do not have clearances. It leaves too much speculation and I get the impression he does not have the support to help him improve his hip scores.

I do kinda have a clue and in this case, I don't think the advice was poor or incorrect...merely taken out of context

I have two pups that are by a very nice dog that is rated fair. One prelimmed good, the other excellent. I know the lines of my bitch and therefore it was never a consideration or thought of as a problem.
As another poster said, you have to look at the whole picture. If this boy is right for your girl, that is what matters. The dog that I bred to that has a fair rating is superior to anything else that I had seen and he fit so well into my breeding program. I would use him again in a heartbeat if I had the right bitch for him.
Everyone on this forum has their own ideas and also their own individual breeding programs. You should never decide how to breed your bitch by what does or does not work for others.
Don't paralyze yourself by not using a dog with a fair rating. It is a normal rating. It is NOT dysplasia.
Good luck in your decision.

My first lab was a fair. I wasn't going to breed her but after talking to other breeders an our vet we had 2 litters.

We bred to an excellent both times. All pups that have been checked are excellent and the grandpups that have been submitted to OFA have been excellent.

Dana,
You don't have a clue. You should not be making disparaging remarks about another breeder. YOU are speculating that he will "likely not have the luxury of dealing with reputable breeders who have a few generations of cleared stock behind the stud he would be forced to use"??? You know that? You also say "Jack will be limited in the studs he can take his girls to..." Do you know that for a fact? Based on YOUR speculation you "advised" someone to spay their dog. Your advice was poor and incorrect and sounds like a load of crap in it's entirety, don't worry about taking it out of context.
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1. They were prelim fair, not fair on finals
2. Jack is in the unfortunate position where he will likely (hopefully because of his affiliation with silvers) not have the luxury of dealing with reputable breeders who have a few generations of cleared stock behind the stud he would be forced to use. It is one thing for us to use an OFA fair dog because we have the luxury of researching potential studs and their pedigrees. Jack will be limited in the studs he can take his girls to, and I'd be willing to bet that a lot of the immediate ancestors do not have clearances. It leaves too much speculation and I get the impression he does not have the support to help him improve his hip scores.

I do kinda have a clue and in this case, I don't think the advice was poor or incorrect...merely taken out of context

I don't believe it was disparaging...as soon as somebody chooses to breed silvers, they do alienate quite a few breeders, and that will severely limit their choices in stud dogs. This is not a judgement, it is a fact. Read this posts here from dozens of breeders and you'll see that before he even looks for a boy for his girls, he has alienated a whole heap of breeders who own stud dogs. I just don't see where a silver breeder is going to have a lot of choices for stud dogs.

I have been a lot kinder to this breeder than most. Don't see what the problem is, unless you happen to be one of the few who would let him use your dog

There are way too many variables in the equation to just say Yes or No across the board. (As with just about everything else, in my experience...) You have to take it case by case, and you have to look at the WHOLE picture. Is the dog otherwise outstanding, from terrific lines, and born into a litter where every other sibling was a Good or Excellent? Then I'd not write that dog off without due consideration.

Kendall Herr once said "Breed until you get a problem." How true. Sometimes I wonder how much time we waste running around, trying to eliminate tiny problems (or even just potential problems!) when that time might be better spent on worthier causes.

Let's continue to look at the whole picture!!

I just have a few questions to thos "breeders" who only want to breed to an OFA rated excellent dog.

When I see the sire and dam producing dogs with better (or worse) hip scores than their own, how do you explain that?

Or a popular stud dog bred dozens and dozens of puppies who have hip scores rated GOOD or EXCELLENT when he is a fair?

Or...the myriad possibilities and iterations of this. Why do you put so much into a score given to a dog based on human interaction read by human eyes with admitted errors of a two dimensional photo of a three dimensional joint?

Get over your own bias and look for a stud who can improve your girl...or not hurt her.

http://www.offa.org/hipguide.html

"Do not ignore the dog with a fair hip evaluation. The dog is still within normal limits. For example; a dog with fair hips but with a strong hip background and over 75% of its brothers and sisters being normal is a good breeding prospect. A dog with excellent hips, but with a weak family background and less than 75% of its brothers and sisters being normal is a poor breeding prospect."

OFA's Recommended Breeding Principals

* Breed normals to normals
* Breed normals with normal ancestry
* Breed normals from litters (brothers/sisters) with a low incidence of HD
* Select a sire that produces a low incidence of HD
* Replace dogs with dogs that are better than the breed average

For me, if there was a fair dog but who also had good pennhip scores, it would make me feel more comfortable using him. (plus of course taking into account the above)

Dana.
Here is the problem, it was disparaging, get a dictionary. All you're doing is speculating, not stating facts. I don't see where you showed any kindness to this breeder and you managed to confuse another. Get more experience and control over yourself before posting content that will hurt your credibility.

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I don't believe it was disparaging...as soon as somebody chooses to breed silvers, they do alienate quite a few breeders, and that will severely limit their choices in stud dogs. This is not a judgement, it is a fact. Read this posts here from dozens of breeders and you'll see that before he even looks for a boy for his girls, he has alienated a whole heap of breeders who own stud dogs. I just don't see where a silver breeder is going to have a lot of choices for stud dogs.

I have been a lot kinder to this breeder than most. Don't see what the problem is, unless you happen to be one of the few who would let him use your dog
Email: fallriverlabs@gmail.com

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"When I see the sire and dam producing dogs with better (or worse) hip scores than their own, how do you explain that?"
If we're just talking about hips, hip dysplasia is a polygenic mode of inheritance, meaning there are several genes that cause the expression of the disease. (yes, canine hip dysplasia IS a disease).
The best caretaker of the breed is an informed one. Vertical pedigrees are the way to go. From all the current information, consideration of the siblings of the parents is more important than just the individual parents' OFA rating alone.
In other words, if you have a bitch that is OFA good but 3 of the littermates are fair, one is moderately dysplastic, and two are severely dysplastic, I personally would not breed that particular bitch.
IF the bitch is otherwise an excellent representative of the breed and has a lot to offer, an experienced breeder might take the chance and breed to an OFA excellent, from a line known for orthopedic soundness.
You have a little more leeway with a bitch than you do a stud dog. IF you have an OFA fair stud dog, he better have a lot of other stuff to offer (pedigree, type, health, temperament, good management!)
It's best to know the pedigrees and OFA certifications of the Labrador families involved before making a decision. This is a situation where it helps to have experience in the breed or have a mentor.

Anonymous

I stand corrected...every stud dog owner would be delighted to allow their dogs to be used for silver litters with girls who do not have current eye clearances or full clearances.
Thank you for enlightening me, but I believe this has nothing to do with the original topic.

Your sarcasm doesn't make you look any smarter.
Quit already and hope people forget.

Dana,

You are right and wrong! You are right it isn't going to be as easy for me to find titled show dogs with a proven history, I do own one however. But you are wrong I am able to find non titled dogs that come from show backgrounds with a proven history. You are also right that it's going to be hard for me to find show people to deal with me because of my choice in breeding dilutes. But I try and live right and usually people like me, i'm very generous and helpful, if it is meant to be God will provide it. I can only worry about myself and no one else. I believe suggesting I get my dogs fixed was a little disparaging and it hurt my feelings a touch but what are you going to do, you didn't say nothing in comparison to some of the others(jerk, money hungry, etc.). Usually the people that say stuff like that hide in the shadows of the forum with alais's and my suggestion to you is next time use a different name. I appeciate you being frank and not hiding but it didn't do yourself any favors apparently. I wish everyone had your courage to use their own names as I think this forum would be better for it. I believe breeding to fair(aveage), as long as I'm breeding up(Good and Excellent).

Jack

To the person that started this thread...when dilutes are being disscussed you can't really take anything good out of the conversation. It's kind of like that soap opra or reality TV show you hate watching but you can't resist missing, you no it isn't good TV or even so realistic but it still has your attention.

to the breeder who mentioned this phrase in another post "if there was a fair dog but who also had good pennhip scores, it would make me feel more comfortable using him." Two thumbs up!

I would breed to a OFA Fair if the dog had a PennHip reading of .48 or better! AND whose sire , dam and littermates had good /excellent ratings! You have to look at the whole package of ratings. A fair hip under these circumstances can breed to produce Excellents/Goods! Also Fair is a passing grade and you are correct its an average score.

Whew,

ANOTHER FABULOS DISCUSSION....

Please don't start the Jack thing. Listen and learn from all the years of experience. I have 30 and still listen. Fair is passing. Look at family history. If you love the stud, go with him. Lots of Fairs end up with good and excellant off springs. Excellant studs are good. Some family history is good. But some can also come up with problems. Like someone else said on here once, and I kept it. "Genetics are dealt out like wild cards". We do the very best we can. But I am thinking of Fair stud next time, he's that nice.

I think anytime you are breeding you need to keep ALL traits in mind. You cannot just breed for eyes or just breed for hips etc. You need to look at the whole dog and what he can bring to your breeding program. I personally know of someone that bred 2 OFA excellents together in fact the whole pedigree was all good and excellents for 5 plus generations and she ended up with a litter with 4 fairs and 1 good and 3 poors. HD is not a simple recessive so IMHO it is foolish to disregard a fair when there are so many more things to consider than just hip ratings.

"The best caretaker of the breed is an informed one."

Hard to get informed when the dog community as a whole mainly only shares good info, not the bad stuff which is there in most cases.

"If people tell you their dogs have never produced a defect, their dogs have probably produced only one litter, they don't follow up on their puppies or what is most likely the case, they are being less than truthful."
-- Dr. George A. Padgett, DVM --

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

"When I see the sire and dam producing dogs with better (or worse) hip scores than their own, how do you explain that?"
If we're just talking about hips, hip dysplasia is a polygenic mode of inheritance, meaning there are several genes that cause the expression of the disease. (yes, canine hip dysplasia IS a disease).
The best caretaker of the breed is an informed one. Vertical pedigrees are the way to go. From all the current information, consideration of the siblings of the parents is more important than just the individual parents' OFA rating alone.
In other words, if you have a bitch that is OFA good but 3 of the littermates are fair, one is moderately dysplastic, and two are severely dysplastic, I personally would not breed that particular bitch.
IF the bitch is otherwise an excellent representative of the breed and has a lot to offer, an experienced breeder might take the chance and breed to an OFA excellent, from a line known for orthopedic soundness.
You have a little more leeway with a bitch than you do a stud dog. IF you have an OFA fair stud dog, he better have a lot of other stuff to offer (pedigree, type, health, temperament, good management!)
It's best to know the pedigrees and OFA certifications of the Labrador families involved before making a decision. This is a situation where it helps to have experience in the breed or have a mentor.

Southland Breeder, as great a post as it was, revealed a simple bias, "But I am thinking of Fair stud next time, he's that nice."


FAIR SCHMAIR. It is an OPINION not a black white test like a blood test. SO MUCH goes into it.

OBSESSION is a cologne, not a breeding strategy!!!!!!!!

"Please don't start the Jack thing. Listen and learn from all the years of experience."

I hope this isn't directed at me. I don't have a problem with breeding to fairs at all and I stated that. I didn't start the Jack thing, I just pointed out in another thread that if he wants to do right by the breed as he indicated, then he might be better off spaying his girls and buying in new ones for many reasons other than being prelim fair.

He certainly wouldn't be the only breeder who has done this and I really admire breeders who have had the guts to take a hard look at their dogs and decide for one reason or another that they should start over again...it takes a lot of dedication to the breed to do that.

Anyway, I never intended to hijack this thread so please just let it go...there is no value in this at all. It really doesn't take long for threads to go down the toilet...it's hard to know who is trolling and who is not.

MATING PROBABILITIES - LABRADOR RETRIEVER
BASED ON OFA DATA AS OF JUNE '03

TOTAL NUMBER OF DOGS IN SAMPLE 37,640

T= NUMBER OF DOGS IN GROUPS
N= NORMAL OFFSPRING
D= DYSPLASTIC OFFSPRING

Excellent (dam) x Excellent (sire)
T=2050
N=1948 (95.0%)
D=102 (5.0%)

Excellent (dam) x Good (sire)
T= 5826
N=5478 (94.0%)
D=348 (6.0%)

Excellent (dam) x Fair (sire)
T= 373
N=342 (91.7%)
D=31 (8.3%)

Excellent (dam) x Dysplastic (sire)
T=144
N=118 (81.9%)
D=26 (18.1%)

Good (dam) x Excellent (sire)
T=5685
N=5310 (93.4%)
D= 375 (6.6%)

Good (dam) x Good (sire
T=17688
N=16193 (91.5%)
D=1495 (8.5%)

Good (dam) x Fair (sire)
T= 1258
N=1092 (86.8%)
D=166 (13.2%)

Good (dam) x Dysplastic (sire)
T=397
N=343 (86.4%)
D=54 (13.6%)

Fair (dam) x Excellent (sire)
T=717
N=649 (90.5%)
D=68 (9.5%)

Fair (dam) x Good (sire)
T=2328
N=2076 (89.2%)
D=252 (10.8%)

Fair (dam) x Fair (sire)
T=217
N=184 (84.8%)
D=33 (15.2%)

Fair (dam) to Dysplastic (sire)
T=70
N=55 (78.6%)
D=15 (21.4%)

Dysplastic (dam) x Excellent (sire)
T=176
N=160 (90.9%)
D=16 (9.1%)

Dysplastic (dam) x Good (sire)
T=589
N=486 (82.5%)
D=103 (17.5%)

Dysplastic (dam) x Fair (sire)
T=70
N=57 (81.4%)
D=13 (18.6%)

Dysplastic (dam) x Dysplastic (sire)
T=52
N=39 (75.0%)
D=13 (25.0%)

Great to have this data! Thanks. I did some statisical analysis using Chi squares, which allow you to compare the numbers you would expect if there were no differences between categories(expected values = E) with observed values (what actually occurred = O). To get expected values I divided the total number of affected dogs in the categories i was comparing by the total number of dogs resulting from breedings in those categories and multiplied the result by the number of dogs resulting from breedings in each category. I then used the Chi square equation to get the sum of (O-E)squared/E for each category. To get the probability you then have to go to a Chi square chart.

I didn't include comparisons when the breeding included a dysplasic parent because I would never do that, and I expect that few or no people on this forum would so. I tested all categories ranging from ex to ex to fair to fair and got a very significant difference. Then I tested ex to ex vs. ex to good. The probability of getting a larger difference than what was actually observed was between .05 and .01, usually considered to be statisically significant. I then tested goood to good vs excellent to fair. Probability was .95- indicating no significant differences. Finally I tested Fair to Fair vs Good to fair and got a highly significant difference.

So I would conclude that the differences between categories is signficant, but that breeding excellent to fair is no more risky than breeding good to good, which is by far the most common type of breeding.

How do you get those statistics when most people don't send in bad films?
Traci

H O L Y M O L Y

Let's also compare color and Vetgen stats too

OK. That's it for me. I thought people would be interested in actually looking at some data analysis rather than just everyone giving their opinion on whether or not one should breed dogs with a fair rating. HD gave some relevant data, so, for my own edification, I tested to see if there were some statistically significant differences. I found the results interesting, so I decided to share them, including how I did the testing so that anyone who has a statistical background could evaluate how I did it. I'm a scientist, and it is engrained in me to provide that information. This is the reaction I got. I'm not going to bother to share any future efforts unless someone tells me they found this interesting.

Traci, you are certainly correct that the non-reporting of dogs that will not pass will result in under reporting of affected dogs, but I don't, offhand, see why there would be differences in the rate of under reporting based on the parental hip ratings. So the data is flawed, but I think it still is OK to use it for this purpose.

Peggy I didn't want to reply so things didn't start going in the wrong direction again. As soon as I read your post I was thinking about printing it out! It was a huge help for me, it really made it easy. I was impressed someone took the time to compile all that info...KUDOS to you and Thank you!!

Thank you Peggy for taking the time to print out some actual data. I am an accountant, love facts and figures. I hope that you will continue to share whatever data you may have on this and future topics. Most appreciated.

I have bred at least 5 of my girls to OFA FAIR rated stud dogs. I can honestly say, we had the best results (hip score wise) from those breedings.

GREAT looking puppies, no problems at all and would do it again in a minute.

Giving credit wherre it is due, the data was supplied by HD. I looked at it and was a bit overwhelmed by all the categories and decided to test the questions I felt were most signficant to me. Does a score of excellent really indicate a better genetic background than a score of good. It seems that it does, but the difference is barely statistically significant. Does a score of fair indicate a poorer risk than a score of good? Yes. Then I wondered if using an excellent on a fair gave worse results than breeding two goods, which is what most of the reported breedings were. The differences were not statistcally significant. I did not test the difference between breeding Good to Good and Good to Fair, but eyeballing the data compared to the ones I did test, I think that would turn out to be statistically significant. So if you breed a bitch with a fair rating, it might be worthwhile to seek out a stud with an excellent rating.

Traci's point is well-taken. No statistical analysis is better than the data on which it is based. And this data is biased by the exclusion of dogs which were obviously not going to pass OFA. I just didn't see any reason to think that people wouldsend or not send based on whether the parents were rated excellent or fair.

Thank you to EVERYONE who replied... this is all very good information and lots to think about.

One more question now. It was recently said that weight can have a lot to do with OFA results. I have heard that many times but am wondering if a dog is overweight when xrayed and comes back as a Fair, would the same dog be more likely to come back as a Good if he was slimmed down and xrayed again? In other words, is the extra weight a contributing factor in the apparent quality of the hip joint on xray but this would improve with less weight or is the weight actually causing a permanent change to the hip joint? Thanks again for your answers.

I do realize that Fair is a passing score, but when you know films were sent in more that once to obtain a fair I always have that voice in the back of my head saying at least two vets previously thought dysplastic. That is when I start to worry/

Peggy-I found it intersting-I'm a scientist also. Stats help if people understand them-maybe a little too much for most? Thanks for the information.
Lisa :-)

Most of the time a fair dog is bad positioning of a Pelvic Hip Xray. A Excellent is usually perfect positioning. Saying that a experienced Vet is able to see if the dog is displastic before Xrays are sent in, even a novice dog owner or breeder can see the abnormality in the dogs hip/socket coverage of the ball of the Femur.It is very obvious.
Age, Heat cycle,experienced, type of restraints use local or total sedation, tech or Vet doing the hip xray play the most important as well the others.
There is a fine line between all three. The tighter the placement of ball in the socket, the better the score.what is behind the dog of concern is the most important and what he produces him self, FAIR is not a fail, it is considered average.