I was recently at a WC test where a few of the
dogs had Shock Collars on they received their WC.
They had pidgeons on land an ducks in the water.

Then, I went to another WC and they said pidgeons
were no longer allowed and through ducks on land?
Although it has been a long time since I attended
a WC I have never seen anyone through a duck on
land? I trained my dogs to get a bird, mainly
pidgeons,pheasants, etc. etc.

Does anyone know where I can get the A.K.C. ruls
for WC tests???

Thanks.

a WC is not an AKC event.
It is governed by the LRC.
You might find the rules one their website.

WC tests are not an AKC test; however, AKC tests will allow you to use ducks on land and I have seen WC tests that use ducks on land.

WC rules say

Test are generally run on pheasant and ducks, but pigeons and ducks are acceptable. AKC recommends and local rules should be followed on the use of live birds. One bird may be a shot flyer if safe and feasible.

It's hard to believe anyone would even use a shock collar to train and run a WC test. It's a minor test and so basic.

I don't think a shock collar is permitted. I think that only a plain buckle collar is permitted. At least, that is what the rule was whenever our club ran a WC.
We did use ducks on land as well as water.

If I were judging NO dog would be coming to the line with an e collar on or a slip lead on I cannot believe any judge would allow this!!! Not sure who the judge was but this is very wrong When I judge WC & WCX I prefer to use ducks on land & water if at all possible because in my area that is what the dogs will get 99.99% of the time when they are running Jr. Sr. Master

>>It's hard to believe anyone would even use a shock collar to train and run a WC test. It's a minor test and so basic.>>

It's hard to believe they would use a shock collar no matter what level test they are running. Years back my friend and I decided to try hunt test competition. I only attended a half dozen classes or so and had seen enough. The trainers' dog ran a course that looked to me to be pretty much flawless. He got back, ran up next to her and she kicked him then threw him in that dog wagon that was hardly big enough for him to turn around in. Shock collars were also used. My friend has continued. I think she's up to Master hunter level by now and considering training for NAHRA judge. I'm happy for her if that's the sort of training she considers humane, it was definitely not for me. If these clubs were created to preserve the hunting instincts of our retrievers, why so artifical?

When we ran our WC a few years back, only flat buckles allowed. I think it was pigeons on land, and ducks in the water.

I have no problem with e-collars used in training (as long as the people have experience and/or work with a trainer who knows what they are doing) but the e-collar has no place in a test. Just like you can use a pinch collar in or around AKC shows. Then again, WC's are club sponsored and have nothing to do with AKC. But some rules should just be in stone regardles...

Wish there was an edit feature...I meant you CAN'T use a pinch at AKC events...

Is it possible that it was a "picnic" type of event? At least in our area, picnics resemble the tests pretty well and someone who's not familiar might get confused. At picnics, use of e-collars is allowed as they are training events, like fun matches.

As far as e-collars and natural instinct, you cannot make something out of nothing with electricity; if compulsion could replace talent and natural ability, every human being would be a professional athlete and every retriever would be a field trial champion.

Thank you. I did find the LRC guidelines and
it does say NO training devices. I guess it
just depends on the club and the judges to make
up their own test. Just wish they were a little
more consistant.

Newbies at these basic tests don't need to see
a dog run on electricity IMO. It is not a training
event. Dogs on e collars remind me of remote cars
run on batteries. sorry:(
They totally loose all their NATURAL ability to
to use their own nose and mind. Again..JMO

I am very surprised that e collars would be allowed at a WC. There are such things as dummy collars- devices with the weight and size of an e collar but no electrical components. People use them in a situation where they will not be using shocks, as for a young dog that hasn't been collar conditioned, so that the dog doesn't get collar-wise. The idea is that the dog recognizes the collar as a sign that they are going to get to retrieve- fun times- rather than associating it with being shocked. I still don't think those collars would be allowed at a properly run WC, as they would be considered training devices.

"They totally loose all their NATURAL ability to
to use their own nose and mind. Again..JMO"

It is an incorrect opinion. Maybe on blind retrieves some people tend to handle the dog too much, so it might appear that the dog is not doing anything with its "nose and mind." Some people can also abuse e-collar and get the desire out of the dog, but I bet dogs that unfortunately have been spoiled with the e-collar aren't running in any events.

Dogs that are running and doing a decent job do have natural ability whether they have been trained using e-collar or not. When not abused, e-collar is a reinforcement tool, just like other types of collars, leashes, etc. Just because you might step on dog's toes to make it stand in the ring when it keeps sitting down, you are not taking the dog's natural ability to stand away because you're reinforcing it by applying force/pressure. Same with e-collar and retrieving.

>>but I bet dogs that unfortunately have been spoiled with the e-collar aren't running in any events.>>

You refer to being zapped with electricity as spoiled?
Sounds like "damaged" would be more like it.

"You refer to being zapped with electricity as spoiled?
Sounds like "damaged" would be more like it."

I refer to being abused with an e-collar as "spoiled." Yes, "spoiled" is exactly what I mean. The word has more than one meaning. From Meriam-Webster dictionary: "Spoil" -- to damage seriously : ruin.

Most WC judges are also hunt test judges. One would think they would ask the person to remove the collar at the line. It would behoove the committee or event chair to make sure that collars are not used on site. I'm sure the collar wasn't "on" but still - it shouldn't be allowed. That being said an e-collar properly used is a valuable training tool. Even a head halter can be an object of abuse if used improperly and don't even get me started about people who abuse their dogs by feeding them whatever they want, whenever they want. Food is not a replacement for affection and attention.

So If the judge let dogs run with e- collars on did they really earn there WC?


From the LRC web site
Who Can Judge a Working Certificate Test?
Any Director of the LRC, Inc., or any
judge of an AKC licensed field trial (need
not be a point judge; may have judged only
a minor stake,) or any judge of an AKC
licensed hunting retriever test may officiate
at a Working Certificate Test. Only one judge is
needed; two are permitted.

2. Tests are generally run on pheasant
and ducks but pigeons and ducks are acceptable.
AKC recommendations and local rules on the
use of live birds should be followed. One bird
may be a shot flyer if safe and feasible.