Blog on Newbies

“Innocent Because They Are Newbies”

I think this is an interesting theory and deserves some looking at.

Do we excuse all the mistakes because one is a “Newbie” and this makes them innocent and not culpable for any of the dogs they breed?

You just go and buy 2 Labradors and breed them and off the puppies go to their new homes as you count your money.

As for me when I bred my first litter – I knew there were clearances to be done.
I asked other breeders what I needed to do.

Particularly if you purchase older breeding stock – clearances are discussed – especially when a large sum of money is involved.

Actually if no monies are involved the soundness of the animal is inherently important.

So my point is – are Newbies completely void of any responsibility?

How many times is a Newbie allowed to make the same ‘mistake’? 1 – 2 – 3?

Is ignorance really a defense?

I’ll be the first to say I have made many mistakes – but they’ve ever had a thing to do with clearances.

Mine have been poor judgment where people are concerned. Not getting contracts when I should have etc. and being to trusting.

You know we all have to start someone and not everyone is as fortunate to hook up with the right people from the very beginning. Those who truly want to do the right thing with or without a good mentor, will learn from their mistakes and strive to do better the next time.

My favorite saying, "It's not where you started that matters, but where you are going that counts!"

Great Saying!

I agree with finding the right mentors. It took me a long time to find the "good ones". I'm thankful every day for them too.

What do you think about the oldies who continue not to do Optigen testing? Some of these people have been bringing in the dough for 20-30 years.

I think they should be doing Optigen testing for sure.
Don't you?

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Replying to:

What do you think about the oldies who continue not to do Optigen testing? Some of these people have been bringing in the dough for 20-30 years.

"Do we excuse all the mistakes because one is a “Newbie” and this makes them innocent and not culpable for any of the dogs they breed?

You just go and buy 2 Labradors and breed them and off the puppies go to their new homes as you count your money"

IMHO this is a BYB, not just a newbie. I am a "newbie", been doing this almost a year. I feel as though that I have educated myself by networking with others, reading books, reading forums, going to seminars etc... But everyone started as a newbie... EVERYONE. And we ALL have made mistakes, and if you are perfect and have NEVER made any mistakes, then please message me and tell me your seceret LMAO! And I love to meet the newbie (not BYB) that is counting their money, because I am on my second litter and STILL will be in the NEGATIVE... I am not even gonna break even

Ain't that the truth. I'm not a newbie by any means (I've got as much grey hair as my elderly labs. LOL) I think we must stay in this "business" because we truly love what we're doing. Some things are so much more important than money.

"I’ll be the first to say I have made many mistakes – but they’ve ever had a thing to do with clearances."

Responding to:"and if you are perfect and have NEVER made any mistakes, then please message me and tell me your secret LMAO!"

I also couldn't agree more - that breeding 2 dogs with no clearances is in fact a BYB!
----------------------------------------------------
Any money I spend on my dogs has been kissed goodbye.
It's my hobby.

Although there are a few people that I think do make some money - more power to them.

I am pretty much a newbie too, and being new doesn't excuse one for being an idiot. Sorry. There are tons of books, and the internet, you don't even NEED a mentor to learn the right things to do. Sure there is a learning curve and mistakes will be made, but there is no excuse for not doing your homework and learning about the right way to do things before you jump in with your eyes shut.

Just a quick note, how do you know they are not Optigen Testing (have you asked them personally about an Optigen rating on one of their dogs)??

Amen to that Jen!!!

Most people have an antipathy towards self-education.
There's an expectation of entitlement.

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Replying to:

I am pretty much a newbie too, and being new doesn't excuse one for being an idiot. Sorry. There are tons of books, and the internet, you don't even NEED a mentor to learn the right things to do. Sure there is a learning curve and mistakes will be made, but there is no excuse for not doing your homework and learning about the right way to do things before you jump in with your eyes shut.

I don't have personal knowledge of any specific breeder who's not testing.

However, I do think that dogs used for breeding should be Optigen tested.

I've heard some say it is cost prohibitive - if you can't afford the testing - then you shouldn't breed.
JMO

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Replying to:

Just a quick note, how do you know they are not Optigen Testing (have you asked them personally about an Optigen rating on one of their dogs)??

I personally know some "Oldies" who do not Optigen test because they claim not to trust in the test.

What year was the Optigen test available to us?

So your statement was at best, heresay/rumor.

Back to the original hypothesis - what an interesting thought! I've always assumed the innocence of newbies, but when you really think about it, there is really no excuse for some of the things people do or don't do. So much information is available and easy to find on the internet. And hip clearances have been the norm for decades - way before the internet. It really has to be a conscious choice to breed without clearances - an "I don't care" or "I'm invincible" attitude.

I do agree, Nancy, but would also like to add that I feel it's all of our repsonsibility to help draw people in by educating, but not just "educating" per se, we need to do it in a way that does not alienate and drive newcomers away. We can all remember to at least TRY to set aside our feelings and try to be more accepting of new people, and to share with them and to make it more accessible for them to know who to turn to for information. THEN, we know that they've had every opportunity laid out for them. I personally hand delivered flyers to the rural mailboxes of a few byb's around here, when I was putting on a CERF clinic. One actually came and told me that he'd asked his vet, who didn't know of any clinics locally and only gave the address of a the DACVO several hours away. Of course a few others didn't come, but that's par for the course. If we all try to share info, as much as we can, we might not be able to educate everyone, but can at least know that the newcomer wasn't snubbed, as many have told me they've felt at times. It's no excuse on their part, that's for sure, but on the other hand, if they posted a question for example to this forum, and got bombarded by the trolls, I can see where it could turn them away. In that sense, I like to think we can all make a difference.

" Re: Re: Blog on Newbies “Innocent Because They Are Newbies”

I do agree, Nancy, but would also like to add that I feel it's all of our responsibility to help draw people in by educating, but not just "educating" per se, we need to do it in a way that does not alienate and drive newcomers away. We can all remember to at least TRY to set aside our feelings and try to be more accepting of new people, and to share with them and to make it more accessible for them to know who to turn to for information. THEN, we know that they've had every opportunity laid out for them. I personally hand delivered flyers to the rural mailboxes of a few byb's around here, when I was putting on a CERF clinic. One actually came and told me that he'd asked his vet, who didn't know of any clinics locally and only gave the address of a the DACVO several hours away. Of course a few others didn't come, but that's par for the course. If we all try to share info, as much as we can, we might not be able to educate everyone, but can at least know that the newcomer wasn't snubbed, as many have told me they've felt at times. It's no excuse on their part, that's for sure, but on the other hand, if they posted a question for example to this forum, and got bombarded by the trolls, I can see where it could turn them away. In that sense, I like to think we can all make a difference."

Getting humiliated on a forum for asking questions and e-mailing a newbie to intimidate them is uncalled for as well by some "so called" up and coming show folks. It is amazing how many two faced lab people there are. They will be your buddy one minute and gang up on you with their friends the next. I don't believe that helps anyone. I certainly am not trying to be negative, just honest with what has happened to me. That is why I am not using my real name either. I have in the past only to have my questions used against me on other forums but some "regulars" here. Please do know that this forum is a wonderful tool for information. Thank you!

I think we need to be more aware of our we use of the term Newbie because in the present discussion it may tend to stereotype 'all' Newbies, and I believe that was not the intent of the post.

No doubt there are Newbies as well as long time breeders who either don't do enough homework or just don't care. Then there are Newbies who will try just as hard (if not more so due to our lack of readily available resources and contacts) as experienced breeders not to be careless in their initial attempts to produce healthy, quality pups.

I've had Labs most all my life. Since I became interested in the sport of conformation I've purchased three Lab bitch. Only the last one was able to get her clearances. She is being bred this weekend and will be 3 when the litter is born.

In preperation for this weekend, over the last two and a half years I have been talking to various breeders - including the breeder I bought my bitch from - about showing and breeding. I've been going to shows to view dogs/bitches, checking clearances of prospective studs and some of their offspring, and trying to look at some of the resulting offspring of stud dogs. I hope I am doing it right.

My point is I am a 59 year old Newbie in the Lab arena. I don't feel the article was directed at me because I feel I am doing it the right way.

My point is that once this topic has fallen off the boards and Newbies continue to join the site, they won't understand why the term "Newbie" might have negative connotations. If people want to breed just for the sake of breeding and don't care how or what they produce, they are just plain old rectal orifices.
Sorry for the rant.

I have a friend with a German Shepherd bitch who he'd like to breed. He has the stud picked out (I guess they're working lines--he's some sort of champion or whatnot in the working arena--I'm still sketchy on the details.) We told him he needs to do hip clearances and elbows at the least, we don't know Shepherds so he'd have to look into the rest of it.

I spoke to him at the bar last night--yep, he has x-rays of his bitch's hips. Doesn't know what to do with them, but he's got them. His regular vet took them and sent him on his way. I told him that he needs to send them to OFA and do her elbows, and if they don't turn out well bring his bitch to MSU to have Mostowski do them.

Point being--the stud owner, who he's already spoken to, is NOT walking him through this, and he really doesn't know where else to turn. He's not a breeder--he just would like to have a litter of pups to keep something out of (his thought process). He doesn't know what he's doing and he doesn't know where to start looking, and being as none of us are Shepherd people, we don't know where to send him.

He's TRYING to do the right thing, but he doesn't have anyone in his breed to help him--and we don't know where to send him.

This is a very interesting thread. It's nice to read the different perspectives and ways to do or not to do things without any rants or snide remarks.

This is civil and if were I still wasn’t afraid of being made fun of or attacked I would use my real name.

I would have to say this is the most intelligent and thought provoking way to present something and poised so different than a question.

I guess that's the difference between a blog and a question-based forum.

We need a Labrador Blog, maybe a weekly bog that will make us all think deeper.

FV if your friend was trying to do the right thing he would be leaving the breeding to people in the GSD breed that know what they are doing and have put in the time and effort to prove their dogs. You may want to council him to show, obedence title, or work title his dog. THAT is how you get to meet people in the breed to network with, not by looking for breeding help in a bar. I don't feel it is a stud dog owner's job to educate every pet owner that calls on the phone.

Darcy Kane wrote:" I don't feel it is a stud dog owner's job to educate every pet owner that calls on the phone."

Hi Darcy and all,

I would respectfully disagree with this statement. I believe that it is our duty to educate anyone who calls whether it's for puppies or for stud service. Some people will be open to listening to reasonable education whereas others will not be.

I do not have any stud dogs at the moment, but when I had my Champion male years ago, I would get many calls from people wanting to use him just because he was a champion (heck I even had a lady with a Poodle bitch want to use him on her Poodle-but that's a different story). It was an excellent opportunity to educate people on the importance of responsible breeding. I do know that I was able to talk many people out of breeding their girls (and yes even the Labradoodle breeder wannabe).

While I think information on breeding has become much more readily available to locate on the internet, some people still do not have internet access. I have also found that some people who just want to breed a litter do not consider themselves a professional breeder and therefore do not think they need to do all the fancy clearances. They soon find out that breeding can be an awesome hobby and those who truly want to better themselves soon start to search out ways to become a better breeder. I would say a lot of breeders start out that way. They may go on the internet or go to shows and talk to stud dog owners about their boys and that's when they truly start to learn. Choosing to educate yourself about responsible breeding and following that path is always the best for the breed! But any time we responsible breeders have a chance to educate the newbie, the more chance we have to create more responsible breeders!

Dianne

And let's not forget "dog trainers"! Besides the puppy's breeder, the owner's vet... next in line, assuming new owners eventually enroll in a puppy kindergarten or basic obedience class, trainiers have a excellent opportunity for educating about not only about responsbile pet ownership but spay/neuter, what makes a caring and responsible breeder, and opportunities for competing in various venues, etc.
I know that's where my first "exposure" and opportunity for receiving education took place with my first pet dog as an adult... certainly wasn't the breeder because our first pet was one of those "you have the cash, you get a puppy" situations. We were lucky, our trainers were not only CGC evaluators, but also officers in a non-profit for promoting responsible pet ownership and Westie breeders/show people.

"If people want to breed just for the sake of breeding and don't care how or what they produce, they are just plain old rectal orifices."

Of course he shouldn't be breeding! But nothing is going to dissuade him from that (we've tried), so the next thing is to try to help him do it right.

The stud owner isn't responsible for educating? Ok, if we take that at face value, that's fine. But the stud owner shouldn't be breeding their stud to a bitch with no clearances, a pet pedigree, and a completely novice owner. We're NOT talking about he's got a pet bitch that he wants to breed to a dog...the arrangement IS in place.

He's TRYING to do it as right as he can with the information he has. But all he's got is his vet--who is a general practicioner and did not advise him on even what his hip x-rays MEANT.

Where else is he to turn? He doesn't want to compete. That's not why he's breeding this bitch. He wants a pup of hers for sentimental reasons. And right, wrong, or otherwise, he's going to breed her REGARDLESS. Once someone is GOING to breed a dog come hell or highwater, the best you can do is nudge them along the right path as far as you can. All he cares is that he is producing healthy, temperamentally sound pups. And, frankly, breeding advice at the bar from a bunch of vets and someone who has put 13 years of their life into getting around to breeding is better than what he got from his stud owner and his vet.

(Oh, and I am well aware that I don't know what the vet or stud owner said to him. I *do* know that the agreement to breed was in place BEFORE his bitch had the x-rays that were taken done, and without a CERF exam.)

Christina! Glad someone got it....

FV...

GSDs need hips and elbows cleared. You can direct him to www.pedigreedatabase.com for a GSD forum. Does the dog (or stud) have a Schutzhund title? This is a common working title with GSDs. He can have a Sch I, II, or III; a BH or an IPO I, II, III.

He can e-mail me with questions I guess, or you can to. Haven't bred my GSD because she never proved herself in the working arena, but have been in the breed for 9 years and have done a lot of research.

EA

Back to the oringal question, I would say there are a lot of mistakes that "some" Newbie's make, that shouldn't be made. I am new, I have two great mentors, one in my breed one in another breed. I am expecting my first litter this year (hopefully) but I still do alot of research. Internet, books, people. My cousins on the other hand have a field trial lab, who does have cerf, and hips. No elbow or PRA. Thier first litter, they lost half the puppies, they had no idea on how to "swing a puppy" or they they could use a bulb syring to clear air ways.... Would it have made a diffence in the survial rate of the litter, who knows for sure. There are other things, and I tried helping out,"Oh I read that....or did try this" but they just do thier own thing and I sorta grimace. Luckly though, they decided that raising pups is to much work. Will I make mistake, yes, will it result in the loss of puppies, I hope not. Shoud being a newbie be an excuse not to do clearences, never!

A quick check at the AKC website will put you in touch with resource materials from the GSD parent club: The German Shepherd Dog Club of America, which a lot of materials on their website as does the GSDCA's affiliated Working Dog Association. A letter with questions to the secretary either club will give you more respurces. They can also furnish the GSDCA's Breeder's Code of Ethics.

The GSDCA recommends OFA certification of hips, elbows, thyroid, heart and a CERF eye clearance, and a GSDCA temperament test to get the OFA CHIC certificate.

It is your professional, moral obligation to educate all people on health clearances for all breeding stock. I am a Newbie and I got burned real bad, because I didn't do my home work and trusted a breeder. There are breeders and there are people who breed dogs for a livin g. Fancy puppy mills. Where health clearances are concerned, anything that has to be done to insure the wellfare of the pups should be done, or don't breed.

We all have been burned but we still have a responsibility to educate ourselves. We can't always say I'm a newbie and had no mentor so I can breed with no clearances and I'm a newbie so that makes it ok.
The Optigen test was readily available when a newbie bred two dogs that had zero clearances that is just well it is just whatever you want to call it. I found my best mentors once I proved myself and then the help flowed to me.