The AKC term is HVB - High Volume Breeder - The AKC could care less if they show their dogs or do health tests - they want the registration dollars... period.

To the collective people that frequent this forum, just what IYO is a Puppy Mill?

Is it a farmer, who raises dogs in dirty substandard conditions and sells the ones that make it to a dealer? (this is the image that pops into all our heads I'm sure.)

Is is a private breeder who keeps their dogs in clean quarters and is contracted to sell entire litters to dealers. (Litter Lot sales)

Is it the person who meets you in a parking lot with your puppy cause their kennel is "too hard to find"?

Is it a person with a slickly designed website, that has 5 litters due next month. And offers a guarantee because they "always" have puppies"

Is it a breeder that sells puppies to the public strictly as pets but doesn't show their own dogs because they don't have the time?

Is is a breeder that has 3 or more litters a year to hopefully find at least one they can run on to show?

(3 litters or 25 dogs sold in one year was the threshold in the PAWS bill.)

In my opinion a puppy mill is an operation that always has multiple litters on the ground, where puppies are raised with the bare minimum of contact and care. In many (not all) cases one or more of the parents are not even registered. To me a puppy mill is a place where the adult dogs are treated like livestock, with little attachment to or care from their owners. A puppy mill can be clean or dirty (although filthy cages is what most imagine the dogs are kept in) and is run purely for profit with little or no thought to pedigree, health clearances, or responsibility.

The other examples that you gave are just varying levels of responsible or irresponsible breeding and may or may not indicate acceptable breeding practices. I think many reputible breeders can find themselves in one or more of the scenarios you listed. Ie: meeting people in a parking lot (for whatever reason - not necessarily because there is anything to hide), having several litters due in the same month (maybe 5 is a bit excessive but many girls cycle together), selling puppies as pets and not showing (a lot of us find ourselves in and out of that situation from year to year), having more than 3 litters a year (who can put a limit on what is the right number for someone else's breeding program?).

Just my thoughts.

And conjure up the image of a literal "puppy farm". Some you won't find on the internet because they don't even have phones... some of these you find listed in a ad placed in the farmer's magazine, no phone number just a rural address. I'm in PA. I remember when we used to try to introduce ourselves to established breeders and dreaded when we got to where we said where we from... soon as you said PA, you could see that look come across their face. Which I can understand us being total unknowns and breeders wanting to protect their lines. One of the uphill battles being from the 2nd largest puppy mill/puppy farm state... but believe me, I'm just as protective and understand why one has to be.

I didn't use Amish in my initial post but that is what I meant. I could never understand how gentle nice Amish people could be so mean to dogs.


Most of the breeders that raise dogs as livestock - are supposed to be USDA licensed and abide by those rules. Enforcement is sloppy. We can all agree on that. USDA licensed breeders have agricultural based standards of care and aren't supposed to raise their dogs in the home; because walls and carpets can't be sanitized like concrete etc. That is the law. To change the law - they would most surely ensnare decent home based hobby breeders based on the other things I mentioned - like numbers or whether they show or offer a guarantee etc.

I just want to say that the Amish are not bad people first of all. Secondly, in their mindset animals are livestick and are used on a farm either to plow the earth, give milk to make dairy products, etc. Most of them, like as with any group of individulas or religions, are not crule to their animals. They care for them well, even though they may not sleep in their home or be part of the family the way most of us treat our animals. Most of them, just like as with any other group of people, do not beat them or starve them etc. They are not breeding dogs with bad intentions, but rather more out of ignorence. AND, might I add that just because ther are a lot of puppy mills in Lancaster, a known Amish area, does not mean they are all puppy mill operators. They get a bad rap. When does the news ever portray anything positive about the Amish?? Do they tell you about thier family vaules and work ethic, and grass roots old fashioned beliefs? No, they only make the news when something bad happens and everyone loves to pick on them because they're different. Just out of curiosity does anyone on this forum actualy know any Amish, not just met once, but really know them?

I know 2 Amish families that raise GSD's those dogs have 50x50 yard! not kennel to live and play in. They are fed dog food and scraps from the household ( boy, mine just get rice and chicken once in a while)...they don't waste a thing... shots are given promptly, the children play with them constantly and are wormed and dews are removed. Those are the most well rounded puppies I have EVER seen and GORGEOUS! they have an eye for animals and it shows. They don't believe in letting them suffer either like some people do out of selfishness and if they can't take care of them, they don't keep them. I don't know any of the Amish people speak of as puppy mills so be careful grouping an entire culture people.

I wasn't bashing the Amish people. You are correct. They take good care of their animals. They are aren't treated like family members, but that is their prerogative. My original point is that is what comes to mind when people think of the "PMs".

Most of the time no clearances, will not take puppys back and always have a litter ready for you. More than two litters at once. And more coming next month and the next month. And usually the poor pups have had no socialization.

The Amish are a very smart lot folks... they can look at a dog, horse, cow, sheep, chicken...whatever and tell if their hips are good.... probably better than the vets we've got these days... People SWEAR by vets, that what they say is gospel, guess what...most have never even raised a litter of pups, trying reading a book to learn how to fly a plane.

To me, a puppy mill or BYB produces puppies to sell at a profit, without placing a priority on health, socialization, and the integrity of the breed.

http://www.pixiedustpapillons.com/amish_puppy_mills.html

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Replying to:

I know 2 Amish families that raise GSD's those dogs have 50x50 yard! not kennel to live and play in. They are fed dog food and scraps from the household ( boy, mine just get rice and chicken once in a while)...they don't waste a thing... shots are given promptly, the children play with them constantly and are wormed and dews are removed. Those are the most well rounded puppies I have EVER seen and GORGEOUS! they have an eye for animals and it shows. They don't believe in letting them suffer either like some people do out of selfishness and if they can't take care of them, they don't keep them. I don't know any of the Amish people speak of as puppy mills so be careful grouping an entire culture people.

First of all, pardon me if I don't listen to a word you say about this subject.

I don't think someone who cannot even SPELL the word, should be talking about CLEARANCES!

Yup, you sound just like the BYBs and PM's - Yeah vet examined the dog and hips are fine! Just insert the word Amish and take out VET!

SHEESH!!! What is the world coming to if you believe this kind of Cr*p!!!???

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Replying to:

The Amish are a very smart lot folks... they can look at a dog, horse, cow, sheep, chicken...whatever and tell if their hips are good.... probably better than the vets we've got these days... People SWEAR by vets, that what they say is gospel, guess what...most have never even raised a litter of pups, trying reading a book to learn how to fly a plane.

"The Amish are a very smart lot folks... they can look at a dog, horse, cow, sheep, chicken...whatever and tell if their hips are good...."

I'll have to tell that to my sister who had to destroy her Amish bred dog at a young age for severe hip dysplasia, not to mention temperament problems.
I can only speak for this particular breeder, but if you are going to breed, then do so responsibly, regardless of your religious denomination

I don't think they have the access the rest of us do though which is sad. They really take care of their "livestock" and with the lack of knowledge that's what makes them a relic in breeding. I don't think an Amish would intentionally breed unsound stock and like the other poster stated they do know what they are looking at when it comes to lamenesses so it could have been environmental as well as genetic. Everyone claims they only breed OFAE to OFAE but the truth is only 17% of Labs are OFAE, even if out on OFAE parents so there are a lot of other factors to look at in unsoundness. They do feed a very high protein with scraps and the likes and that could have a lot to do with it. There is an Amish family that feeds their dogs/puppies left over milk replacer from their veal operation and always have huge pans of dog food out, plus table food leftovers that's alot for a baby. There are some though that know better I'm sure as the ones in Holms County have had so much publicity they would have to know to research pedigrees by now but I dont' know how they would do it in some families other than books and that's limited access to them also. As for inbreeding and linebreeding, the Amish marry withen their community/families so it prob seems OK to them to breed closely. Their biggest concern is taking care of their families and will make money at whatever they can and face it pups are bringing more than a cow or horse these days.
Was your sisters dog a Lab or another breed?

Amish dont marry close relatives, in fact I've never heard of any Amish marring a relative at all. Believe it or not, outsiders are joining their community. Their religion is growing, not declining, and it's not just because they have a lot of children. New members join every year. And in case you're wondering, yes, I do know what I'm talking about. I know many Amish families quite well, as friends and cousins. They live in PA, OH, IN Michigan and a few others states as well. I know this post isn't puppy mill related, but just wanted to clear the air. Again, I do not support puppy mills of course. I just meant o say that not all Amish breed dogs and those who do are just ingorent of how they are effecting the breed in general.

Ignorance is not an excuse.

I board an "Amish" bred dog and the dog is a real NUT! He also walks really funny in the rear, very unstable and actually bunny hops at times. I don't need to see an X-ray to be certain that this poor dog has a problem with his hips!

Dana

"Was your sisters dog a Lab or another breed?"

It was an Aussie.
I absolutely appreciate what you are saying and I'm certainly not pointing my fingers at the Amish. It is ludicrous to assume that you can tell if the hips are free of HD based on gait alone as one poster stated the Amish are capable of this.

Seriously, I would be quicker to forget somebody breeding HD out of ignorance than somebody who knows they may produce it and does it anyway in the pursuit of show wins.

I'm not excusing anyone who runs a puppy mill, just saying not all Amish are puppy mills--that's all.

Never discuss religion or politics and that wasn't on a website, it was in general. Reason, no one will agree and it isn't polite plain and simple.

To say a specific state has more puppy mills than others due to open areas and space is one thing, to point a finger at a particular religion is absurd in my opinion and no I am not of the religion or heritage discussed. JMO

Dana, maybe it is not an "Amish" bred dog, but rather an Am Bred Dog??

sorry,couldn't resist.

I think it can be agreed there are very evil people all over regardless of religion. Be it Amish or Christian or what-ever.