There are a lot of breeders who are rightly very protective of our breed. Despite this, I see a lot of dogs standing at stud with failed hips and elbows and a lot of dogs who didn't have their elbows done (or did they), many of whom have a similar history behind them.
I realize you need to look at the whole dog and this is not a judgement but an observation and a question.
What exactly is the justification for using a dog who failed their clearances (with the exception of dogs who you genuinely believe had an injury that caused the dog to fail).
What are the odds that the get from an affected dog are going to contribute to the breed or to your line? Is it worth the gamble and why?
I understand that HD and ED are polygenic, but it is also obvious that breeding passing dogs is much more likely to produce sound dogs than breeding dogs who have failed.
Please, no finger pointing or fighting...what would be the reason for using one of these dogs and is it truly in the best interest of our breed with the vast number of dogs we can choose from?

Are you asking a real question????
Not sure !!!!
I would not even begin to try and answer this one with a sound mind!
Are you a new person getting into the breed if so there are tons of books out there better start to read you have a very long way to go!
As far as the Amish go I lived in alancaster and Paradise for many years and it is disgusting how they breed in there barns basements and garages and very sickening . I would never even consider them as breeders more like slaughter houses and death traps for the pups at bitrth and i nthe future fro millness. NO THEY DO NOT DO CLEARANCES OF ANY KIND EVER> YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR IN that area!!!!

And it seems that a CERF is optional for some breeders as well. I don't get it.

An option yes but definitly needed to make sure the pups eyes and also all breeding dogs are healthy in the eye area. There are breeders out there that still do not do the eyes and sell the pups for $900.00 and move 60 pups a year no problem. I do not get it but that is just the way they do. I would never ever breed without clearances all of them. I do not want to hurt any pups in my breeding program if I can prevet a catastrophy from happening in the breed. Blind pups are not necessary and crule or even juvenile cataracs or any other eye disease.

Not a newbie and not looking to stir things up...please.
It was just something I thought of while reading the thread on the Amish.
Clearly some breeders think that it is safe to use dogs without clearances in some instances and although I don't agree, I would like to know what their reasons are and what the benefits are.
I don't need to know who they are because I know anyway and what they do with their dogs is their business, not mine.
But every time we breed a litter we think, this is the next great one, and most of the time it is not. Even if you knew the offspring would be great, is breeding to an affected dog too high a price?
Really just want to hear different opinions.

Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant passing seems to be optional. The dog does not pass, yet it is still used.

Well I don't live in your country but here is my experince. We have just had a bitch scored. This bitch is very active, out on the farm swiming hunting etc. Bounces up and down like a kangaroo, her brother is exactly the same. These dogs pedigrees are A's and B's for hips for 6 generations. Well the dog came back with grade A ( fantastic) the bitch came back grade E So tell me just how all my hip and elbow x raying has helped me improve on what I had, yes she is to be spayed and placed in a pet home. These dogs are out of A ( their father) and a B ( their mother)Don't get me wrong I will continue to score any breeding stock after all if I didn't I could have ended up breeding from this girl thinking she was sound, just gets depressing sometimes when you do everything possiable and this still pops up. And NO I would never breed from a dog with no clearences !!

I am so confused!!!

Why not put another spin into this "question" as well?

What about the breeders out there who continue to breed a dog who has passed it own clearances, yet consistently produces problems in it's offspring such as HD or ED?

Is there a good reason reason to breed this dog?
I would think not. Btter reason NOT to.

IMO, a dog that maybe failed for an elbow but comes from sound stock with solid cleared backgrounds is far better to take a chance on using than a dog who knowingly produces problems, yet is clear itself.

Not pointing fingers here but also not speaking from ignorance. I have experienced this first hand through more than one breeder.

Anyone care to speak up?

OK, I'll make it simple but I was trying not to step on toes.
Do we place more emphasis on wins than health and soundness when we breed to dogs without clearances and is this short sighted and a problem for our breed?
Why exactly do we make exceptions in some cases and what are the ramifications to our breed?

I would have your male re-evaluated...sounds like could be bad x-rays. It happens a lot... go back through posts and you'll see many people getting do overs and the dog passes with a Good.

In answer to your comments,genetics is a wonderful thing. It takes two dogs to produce a problem like HD and ED. Have you looked at your pedigree's??? Who are these dogs or dog who produce all these problems and I would think if this dog was producing all these problems, people would not use the dog. Have you looked on OFA to see all the problems this dog has produced before you used him or is this just a bias assumption? I would think you have to look at all the litters the dog has sired and then go to OFA too see all the dogs that have passed to get a percentage. Have you look at OFA for the percent of puppies produced in a litter that will be dysplastic? we would all like to have none at all, but like I said Genetic's is a wonderful thing.
Again it always the stud dogs fault!

"It takes two dogs to produce a problem like HD and ED."

With a polygenic disease, you only need one parent to pass it on.
It is like heart disease...if one parent has it, you are at risk and if both have it, your risk is greater. Like heart disease, it can also be modified by diet and lifestyle.

Answer to Lab Breeder, how do you know they produce 60 pups and don't do eyes. If you are looking at Cerf site or OFA remember some do not always send it in. They have it done and just don't send it. It makes it bad for the rest of us to see the history of dogs in pedigrees clearances. Some just think it is there business and guess it is.

I think the answer to that would be yes. Some just look at the latest dog out there winning. Breed to the "hot" kennel. And alot breed on pre lims, so, a dog does not pass something, a dog has not had his clearances done yet. And the difference is ? I don't just breed to a Champion to have that to say for the puppys. I breed to the dog and the pedigree. They will sell themselves. There are so many of us breeding these days, we have so many different thoughts on doing it. But I have sure been in the dark about this Amish link. Very sad.

Several years ago, I inquired about a stud dog. I was told that he had OFA good hips, but one bad elbow. I told the gal I would not breed to a dog that I knew was unsound.

Her comment was, "you will never find a perfect dog." True, but my reply to her was, "yes, but I can certainly find a SOUND dog."

The one time I compromised and bred to a dog that had never had his elbows checked, I had a pup with a bad elbow (first one in 20 years). Coincidence? Maybe. But why take the risk when there are plenty of sound dogs available?

MK

Wow. Someone is a bit defensive.
Nowhere was it mentioned what sex the dog or dogs that were referred to were

Whats the matter, hit a little too close to home?

You can rely on OFA all you want. Maybe that is your problem. We all know how many people authorize the release of negative results and it's not many. So of course the offspring showing in the data base will be clear most of the time. Duh?

Like I said, I will not point fingers, especially on a public forum. I do have some tact.
But the cases I am speaking of are from my own experience and specific knowledge. And they don't involve just one breeder or one problem.

Still wondering why you are so defensive?
Skeletons in your closet?

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Replying to:

In answer to your comments,genetics is a wonderful thing. It takes two dogs to produce a problem like HD and ED. Have you looked at your pedigree's??? Who are these dogs or dog who produce all these problems and I would think if this dog was producing all these problems, people would not use the dog. Have you looked on OFA to see all the problems this dog has produced before you used him or is this just a bias assumption? I would think you have to look at all the litters the dog has sired and then go to OFA too see all the dogs that have passed to get a percentage. Have you look at OFA for the percent of puppies produced in a litter that will be dysplastic? we would all like to have none at all, but like I said Genetic's is a wonderful thing.
Again it always the stud dogs fault!

Amen!!

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Replying to:

Several years ago, I inquired about a stud dog. I was told that he had OFA good hips, but one bad elbow. I told the gal I would not breed to a dog that I knew was unsound.

Her comment was, "you will never find a perfect dog." True, but my reply to her was, "yes, but I can certainly find a SOUND dog."

The one time I compromised and bred to a dog that had never had his elbows checked, I had a pup with a bad elbow (first one in 20 years). Coincidence? Maybe. But why take the risk when there are plenty of sound dogs available?

MK

Replying to Breeder to,
Because I know them personally. They took 4 to Cornell many years ago for one cerf clearance and that was the no never went again Never went to a Clinic Because in the biggest city near them the Lab club there nor any other club have cerf Clinics and I tried t tell her to just go to a licensed Opthomologist to have her dogs eyes Checked Fell to Deaf ears, She says not the same but it is the same they can see illness to the eyes to, SHE NOR HER HUSBAND WILL Budge this is how I know she wanted me to send her people if I did not have any pups available to send the puppy seekers to her I declined. Only hips done either OFA or Penn Hip and that is it they do all there own dew claws and also shots except Rabies, Sorry I have not been on here for a few days I have an ill boy my 7 year old going in for major operation tomorrow for 2 sever twists in his body he was at my normal vets for 5 days then off to the specialist and this is what they saw once they retrieved 3/4 gallon of fluid out of his abdomen and still some in there. I am praying with all my heart he will come thru this tragedy and yes it happened while Breeding!!!! One never knows.
The breeder I know that has 60 plus pups a year is a nice clean kennel and 8 dogs in the house just does not do the eyes or the elbows and Yes she does get $900.00 per puppy. I know for a fact and she only comes down in price if there more than 10 weeks she did this with her last 2 choc. females 11 weeks old sold both to the same Family for $700.00 each yesterday . She is happy they have new home and will be still together. She has 2 more litters coming shortly and most are reserved. People do buy with just the hips done because of the price from other breeders that do all the clearances. By the way she is state kennel Licensed and also has 26 dogs 5 are retired she keeps most of them when retired to!

"People do buy with just the hips done because of the price from other breeders that do all the clearances."

I'm kinda lost on the gest of that post, but are you saying people find the dogs more affordable at $900 from a litter where sire/dam only have OFA hip clearances? While I do think on the East coast, the average well bred puppy would be more in the vicinity of $1200 from parents with OFA elbow & hip clearances, ACVO cleared yearly, at least once parent Optigen Normal... I don't think it would be totally impossible to find a litter available for $900 from parents with all those clearances. So I'm doubting that price is the only reason they're going to that particular "breeder"... I'm thinking it is more likely the buyers are not as fully educated about what to look for as far as clearances and what makes a responsible breeder.

I’m surprised how often this question comes up. Usually it’s hurled at a poster in defense of puppy mills or BYBs: ‘The big breeders use a dog without xxx clearance so who are they to talk?” I realize that’s not how this question was posed, but maybe it’s time someone answers it.

With the exception of the few Breeders who don’t care, top Breeders breed the Labrador - they don’t breed clearances. It doesn’t mean they don’t do clearances, it means they won’t breed an inferior or mediocre Labrador just because they have clearances. Far too many litters are born just because the Sire and Dam had clearances. The parents had no outstanding characteristics but they are ‘ethically bred’ because they have a hip and eye clearance.

Dogs with weak pasterns, straight shoulders, straight stifles, cow hocks, out at the elbows, in at the elbows, poor bone and dreadful movement are bred everyday. But these poorly structured animals become prematurely crippled when their bodies can’t handle normal wear and tear. And while Pet Buyers have become savvy enough to ask for hip clearances, they usually can’t see past a cute face or pretty color, and can't see proper structure if it's pointed out to them.

My ortho Vet noted she has never repaired a cruitate in a GSD. Her opinion? The knee is so angulated it gives on impact and absorbs shock. Most tears she sees are in straight knees. I saw three bitches in the ring today who had absolutely no turn of stifle but they have hip clearances and will be bred. The repair to the knee is as costly and as worrisome as a hip replacement but much harder to blame on the Breeder.

There have been posts debating the merit of using an OFA Fair or an Optigen B. It indicates just how effective some have been defining what constitutes a ‘good breeding’. For those of you (and if the shoe doesn’t fit – don’t put it on) whose only criteria is OFA Excellents and Optigen As, gene research will someday make it impossible to breed a cleared dog. You will have to pick a poison – just like seasoned, successful old time Breeders choose to do now.